Heritage Guelph

0:25Good morning. We're just once we get one more member, we will have quorum. Okay, we have quorum now. So we can begin whenever you'd like Sarah.

1:48Excellent. Thanks Jack. So back to virtual today. Well, welcome to everyone. I'll call to order the January 29th, 2020.

1:57Hear me.

1:58I can. Yep. Okay. I can't hear anybody. So I might have to.

2:03Go out and come back in. I had some issues getting connected as well. Kathy on my end. So I don't know if it's a.

2:09But you can hear me. So I even bother talking.

2:12I'll keep going and just assume that Kathy will eventually be able to hear us and join us. So once again, we just lost Kathy. She'll come back.

2:21I'd like to call to order the January 29th, 2024 meeting of heritage 12.

2:27And welcome committee members staff and I'll invite a guest who are attending the meeting.

2:31I'll begin with our territorial acknowledgement and also close my email so nobody has to hear that annoying noise in the background.

2:40As you gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work in wealth.

2:44A city built over rich indigenous histories.

2:48We are guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land, the people who live here today and the generations to come.

2:56If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation, we should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude.

3:03The place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for many peoples over time, but more specifically the Attawan drunk and the Haudenosaunee.

3:13This land is held as the treaty lands and territory with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation.

3:17Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman tract and is part of a long established traditional hunting ground for the six nations of the Grand River.

3:25Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples who have come from a cross-tortal island call Guelph home today.

3:32And moving on to our next item in the agenda, I will ask committee members if there are any disclosures of pecuniary interest and if so please raise your hand and state the nature there of

3:46seeing neither Joudat or Cameron raise their hands in front of me and no one else putting their cameras on. I'm assuming that means no.

3:55So we can move into our really only real agenda item for today, which is the Downtown Heritage Conservation District Workshop 2 and we have a presentation from Rebecca and Christina.

4:09Great. Thanks Sarah. I'm just going to be the one sharing Rebecca and Christina's presentation today.

4:17And before we get started, I will be introducing Alisa Pompa to the committee.

4:27She is going to be taking over the project management of the Downtown Guelph HCD study and hopefully plan.

4:35So today she's going to obviously be observing the workshop

4:41and learning about obviously all of your feedback and commentary on the study so far so it can all be incorporated

4:49in this round of public engagement. So I'll just introduce Alisa. She's a policy planner here

4:56and she started actually on the same time that I started about a year and a half ago. She has

5:02extensive experience in land use planning and environmental planning and I'll just pop it over to her just to introduce herself quickly.

5:12Victoria, that actually was a pretty good summary so I don't know if I have anything else to add but just thank you for coming today and nice to meet everybody and look forward to continuing

5:22the engagement on this project.

5:27Awesome. Thanks Alisa. So now I'll bring it over to Rebecca to start the presentation portion of today.

5:36Great. Thank you Victoria and Alisa and good afternoon to all members. Thank you for having us with you again.

5:44To start off, just a few refreshers on who we are and what we want to try to achieve today.

5:51So I am Rebecca Schera, a partner and principal heritage specialist with ASI, the lead firm

5:57on the Heritage Conservation District study and with me today is also Christina Martins,

6:03the lead project manager on the study from ASI and who is also a senior heritage specialist with our firm. Next.

6:22Sorry, one second and I'm having some technical difficulties. Oh boy.

6:57Great. Thank you Victoria. So our key goals for our time together today are for Christina and I to present the findings of the HCD study and then to hear from you

7:30and receive some feedback on its key recommendations. Next. Did we skip this slide? There we go.

7:45Great. Christina and I will spend about 20 to 30 minutes walking through the study scope and findings.

7:51We have then carved out approximately 15 minutes for clarifying questions right off the top.

7:57Next we have about 45 minutes for discussion and would like to really focus feedback around the description of the district's significance, its heritage attributes and the proposed boundary.

8:10Next. To start, we want to first review how we got here today in brief and the basis for initiating an HCD study in downtown Guelph.

8:22The downtown has long been recognized for its high concentration of interconnected heritage features and fabric that together combine out of quality and scale.

8:32That is important to the city's character and sense of place.

8:36There is a strong policy framework in place that recognizes the strength of these historic patterns, fabric and relationships in the downtown.

8:45The downtown streetscape manual dating to 2014 recognized an area in the historic core of the downtown as consisting of a range of historic streetscapes and that's the area in pink in front of you.

8:58Next. Four years later, the cultural heritage action plan built on the downtown streetscape manual assessment as it relates to the historic qualities of the downtown.

9:11Also recommending that the old downtown area was a strong candidate for recognition as a cultural heritage landscape.

9:19Next. And of course, the city's decades long program of inventorying and listing historic properties and individually designating them under part four of the Ontario Heritage Act also demonstrates a long standing recognition.

9:36That the downtown is chock a block full of important and interconnected heritage features. The map on the left shows these features.

9:45These various properties that have been listed or designated in green and purple.

9:50I also want to mention briefly that more broadly the city's official plan and amendments to it made through official plan amendment 80 strongly recognize that the downtown should be planned and designed to maintain, enhance and promote its cultural heritage resources.

10:06Unique streetscapes and landmark features. This is all to say that there have been many years.

10:12A great deal of work and policy recognition that the downtown.

10:16Is a historic and has a historic environment with a range of important historical features that are interrelated.

10:24Next. With this policy framework in place and series of recognitions.

10:31That the downtown has a clear historic quality.

10:34A heritage conservation district is a common way for municipalities to establish a specialized planning framework for this type of area.

10:43We want to briefly recap the process for creating a heritage conservation district and which is established under part five of the Ontario Heritage Act.

10:52Essentially, the process begins with a study phase following council requests to do so.

10:58This is the stage where historical research engagement property inventories built form analysis and streetscape analysis happen.

11:06This stage serves to report to council on several topics.

11:101 does the area meet the criteria for designation as established under the Ontario Heritage Act.

11:16And based on historical research analysis and property and streetscape inventory results.

11:21If yes, what is the recommended boundary for protection and what should be the key objectives of a district.

11:30The study phase also serves to report on the results of public engagement and consultation with the municipal heritage advisory committee.

11:38And also serves to report on the city's existing policy framework and whether it enables creation of a district.

11:45And how other existing bylaws would be impacted by creation of a district based on these results.

11:51A recommendation is made about whether to proceed to the next stage of creating an HCD plan for the recommended area. Next.

12:01All HCDs are required to have a plan that presents objectives, policies and guidelines and which defines a process for heritage permitting.

12:09The plan phase involves minimum statutory consultation with the public and yourselves, the municipal heritage advisory committee.

12:16In practice, though, the plan phase often as a much is quite intensive on the consultation and engagement side as it really drills down into guidelines.

12:26And policies and has implications for property owners regarding alterations, removals and demolitions.

12:32The plan phase culminates in the following publishing of a draft plan.

12:37For public review.

12:39A recommendation from the municipal heritage advisory committee.

12:43Regarding moving forward to designation and a decision from council on whether to designate.

12:50If council makes a decision to designate a notice of intention to designate will be issued and all properties within the boundary are designated under part 5.

12:59Although, depending on how they contribute to the district significance, they often are subject to different policies and guidelines.

13:05And permitting requirements as presented in the plan document.

13:09Individuals can object to the designation and it can be appealed to the Ontario Land Tragunal.

13:15Next, as discussed last time we met the study phase we are leading has been scoped to meet the requirements.

13:24Under the Ontario Heritage Act, the study involves research, including historical research and policy review.

13:31It includes engagement with the public property owners business improvement association.

13:37Heritage Guelph.

13:39Dedicated focus group and Mississauga's of the new credit.

13:44Surveys of buildings, streets and landscape features.

13:48Analysis of the area to understand its pervasive patterns and relationships.

13:53Heritage evaluation using Ontario Heritage Act regulation 906 criteria.

13:58It also involves a boundary recommendation for the district.

14:02The boundary needs to reflect the results of research and analysis and respond to the results of heritage evaluation.

14:09The boundary should contain strong, interrelated and cohesive collection of heritage resources.

14:15That together form a distinct place in which express significant heritage values.

14:20There should be a sense of exit and entry into this area.

14:23And the relationship between features should express important themes, stories and patterns.

14:29In the city of Guelph.

14:31The study also includes a preliminary statement of significance and list of attributes for the district.

14:36And also recommended objectives for future potential district plan.

14:41Next, since we last met in September, the study has been heavily focused on research analysis and engagement.

14:52I will first provide an overview of engagement activities and results and Christina will then walk us through results of historical research analysis.

15:00Boundary rationale and heritage evaluation.

15:04Through the fall, we held four engagement events. One with yourself.

15:08And then a public open house and walking tour, a focus group meeting and a meeting with Mississauga's of the credit first nation.

15:15These sessions helped inform.

15:17Identification of important themes, patterns, significant relationships and boundary analysis.

15:24We are now heading into our second round of engagement through January to March.

15:28Reconnecting with many of these same groups to share findings and study recommendations and to receive feedback.

15:34Next.

15:37The results of engagement have been very important to the study process.

15:41And I would like to provide a brief overview of some key points of input feedback and perspective that we've heard.

15:48First off, when we met.

15:50With yourselves in September, we heard about various qualities and features that are critical components of the downtown's heritage quality.

15:58These included limestone buildings, historic infrastructure like railway lines.

16:04Buildings and streets representing the city's legal and judicial history.

16:08The farmers market, the Raymond building and surrounding area and the Wyndham and McDonnell intersection.

16:15Next.

16:18At the October public open house and online survey, we heard from the public about various commercial institutional

16:26industrial and religious buildings as well as parks, views, streetscapes, open spaces, squares, burial ground.

16:33And statuary or other installations that give the downtown a unique and historic sense of place.

16:40We also heard from the public about features or developments in the downtown that represent

16:45different periods of development.

16:48And or which aren't consistent with its historical character.

16:51Participants at the open house also started to share ideas about opportunities for enhancement in the downtown.

16:57Pointing to design principles that may be important as part of the future heritage sensitive planning framework in the downtown.

17:05Next.

17:07At the open house and through the survey, we also asked individuals to provide feedback on how they experience the downtown.

17:14We also asked participants to think about boundaries of the historic downtown.

17:19When are you inside it? At what point do you exit from it?

17:23In most instances, participants described the historic downtown as being larger than the initial area we were asked to assess.

17:31The map that you see in front of you is a is a heat map with the various boundaries shown with

17:39the darkest areas showing where the most overlaps happen

17:43in boundaries that individuals

17:45created.

17:47Next.

17:50At the focus group meeting in November, we shared

17:53we we provide an overview of the study process and emergent findings.

17:58The majority of the discussion with the group focused on members expressing support for a conservation district in general, while also

18:06emphasizing that its objectives need to be carefully thought out

18:09to ensure that the downtown remains active and an and an area of investment.

18:14Members also identified that the plan should be coordinated with the range of existing other existing land use planning policies and requirements in the

18:22downtown.

18:24Recommendations were also made to heavily engage with property owners during the plan stage and to also consult further with the accessibility advisory committee.

18:33Next.

18:36And with that, I'll turn it over to Christina to walk us through the the other side of the research and analysis that's been occurring since we last met.

18:44Thank you.

18:46Thanks, Rebecca, and it's good to see everyone again.

18:50So I'll be sharing

18:52our findings,

18:54both historical research as well as how they're

18:58accommodating in a statement of significance and a recommended boundary.

19:03So we'll go to the next slide.

19:08So we're going to look at a few main topics. The first being the setting, the second being the town plan.

19:15The third, how

19:17Guelph was a 19th century regional center

19:21and then how the

19:24downtown has evolved since the 19th century and through the 20th century.

19:31So the downtown area is

19:34influenced by several geographic or physiographic features such as spillways,

19:40the Speed River to the west of the study area,

19:45the gravel terraces and the drumlands.

19:49The gravel terraces create a situation where the downtown is

19:55gently sloped from east to west and north to south

19:59such that there's a rise around St. George's Square.

20:03The drumlands

20:05are characteristic of Guelph more broadly as Guelph is situated within a drumland field. Drumlands are these

20:15small hills that are shaped

20:17with compared to an inverted spoon. So they have a rounded end and a tapered end.

20:23In particular for downtown, the drumlands create a sense of enclosure.

20:31The area also consists of three major bedrock formations, the most significant being the limestone that was

20:38that's distinct in color and consistency from other limestones quarried in the 19th century from both Kingston and Queenston.

20:48Guelph is distinct in its color and consistency

20:51and is easily worked.

20:55The limestone

20:57was eventually quarried to construct many of the buildings that are within the downtown area.

21:04Prior to 19th century settlement,

21:08Guelph was home to indigenous nations such as the Attawanda de Ronde, the Mississaugas and the Haudenosaunee.

21:19Next slide.

21:23So Guelph described the town site as a tongue of land surrounded by a clear and rapid stream.

21:30So it's this from this shape of land and the speed river surrounding it on the

21:37north and west sides or east side sorry that

21:44Guelph then lays out a radial plan. It radiates from a central point with five key streets.

21:51This this layout is thought to have

21:55been done to take advantage of water power for early industry. So

22:00the layout of the streets led to an increased

22:04opportunity for waterfront lots

22:07to access water power.

22:10These streets were laid out in 1827

22:14and this is a very early and rare example of streets and blocks

22:19laid out in this manner in Ontario.

22:22As well as being laid out prior to any industry or development within the downtown or the surrounding areas.

22:29Typically what would occur is that agricultural lands would be

22:36populated and then towns would rise out of the need for communal space.

22:42This was done in reverse and was part of Guelph's initiation of the Canada Company in 1824

22:50which was buying land in Upper Canada

22:53for commercial enterprise.

22:58The radial plan today is strongly related to the identity of Guelph as well as its history.

23:05People tell stories of the radial plan and it's something that

23:12that people identify with.

23:15This plan not only dictated the street and lot pattern

23:19but it greatly impacted the architecture of the downtown.

23:22So there's triangular blocks as well as several very narrow blocks.

23:26The triangular blocks lead to some wedge-shaped buildings or irregular

23:32plans and the narrow blocks lead to buildings that we're calling through buildings.

23:37Essentially buildings that front onto two streets.

23:41And so

23:44there's been a particular evolution to the buildings because of that.

23:50Additionally

23:53within the town plan there are two main focal points. St. George's Square as I've mentioned on the rise of the gravel terrace

24:03and which has financial institutions clustered around it.

24:07The other being Market Square and at the time that the town plan was laid out Market Square was much larger than it is today.

24:15It was quite uncommon to be laid out in a triangular shape. Often squares in North America were square in shape.

24:25But triangular squares did occur in medieval towns.

24:30The size of Market Square at the time of Litzlaya was disproportionately large for the size of Guelph at the time.

24:38And it reflected Guelph's ambitions that Guelph would become a much larger town.

24:46What are the next slides?

24:51So in the 19th century following the layout of the streets and blocks

24:57a mill was constructed

24:59and it served settlers from 10 to 15 miles in every direction. Guelph was beginning to provide

25:05higher order services to the surrounding villages and townships hosting events such as large semi-annual

25:12and monthly cattle fairs.

25:14So people were traveling to Guelph from the surrounding areas and as such

25:22particular services were provided.

25:25Following that Guelph was named the District Seat

25:30and it became the center for the county legal and administrative offices with installation of the courthouse and jail.

25:40In the 1850s the construction of the Grand Trunk Railway changed the way that Guelph developed

25:47bisecting Market Square

25:49and channeling the commercial growth northward.

25:53However the railway also brought increased opportunities for trade industry and settlement.

26:02Growth was gradual through the 19th century

26:05with the high quality agricultural land sold by the Canada Company for

26:10high prices at a time when free land was still available elsewhere in the province.

26:17The town eventually saw economic prosperity

26:20and its affluence beckoned grand architectural treatments with a building boom that occurred specifically in the 1870s.

26:30Next slide.

26:35So before you these are two maps that we're using for historical comparison of building types and use.

26:41On the left is a map from 1892 showing

26:46uses of land

26:48at the time as described in the fire insurance plan

26:52and on the right is our cataloging of uses of historical building types from our contemporary survey work.

27:01What we can see is

27:04industrial uses in the

27:061890s

27:08concentrated along Cardin Street with the Bell Organ and Piano Company.

27:13This company was established in 1864 and was the largest employer at its peak with 450 people in 1885.

27:23The second major industry

27:25was the Raymond Sewing Machine Company on Yarmouth Street.

27:29And these industrial properties are depicted in gray on

27:34the map on the left hand side.

27:37So you can see that there's also several minor industries occurring within the downtown in the 1890s.

27:44There's also commercial activity along the spines of

27:49Wyndham, Macdonnell and Quebec streets with the building showing in red.

27:55And

27:57residential properties are shown in yellow. So there's still quite a few residential properties in the downtown in the 1890s.

28:04But in the present many of these residential uses have been pushed out of the downtown in favor of commercial

28:12civic and institutional uses and we can see very few yellow properties still within the downtown.

28:20By the 1920s industry in the downtown weigned. But the commercial center

28:27contained virtually all of the retail in the town of Guelph within the downtown core.

28:34About 80% of the buildings within the downtown are commercial buildings.

28:39There's also a concentration of banks around St. George's. So we see an ongoing usage

28:45of financial institutions in that location despite changes to the building forms themselves in the 1960s.

28:53And then there's also a concentration of hotels within the downtown particularly

28:58in proximity to the railway along Macdonnell and Cardin Street.

29:03The next slide. These two maps show

29:10some generalized land use existing patterns and streetscape typologies.

29:14So the land use patterns is on the left and streetscape typologies is on the right.

29:20So the land use patterns give us a sense of generally where types of

29:26buildings and uses are located. So not as specific as the previous map, but you can trace

29:32its origins to here. So what we're seeing is

29:38as the legend is quite small, but the

29:41blue shows institutional office and public uses. The pink is mixed use commercial.

29:49And then the yellow is low rise residential and the light yellow is low rise and the dark yellow

29:57is mid or high rise residential uses. So what we can see is that there's a continuity of commercial

30:04uses. And I think what is most compelling for me on this map is the ongoing

30:12institutional use of the area of market square. So I don't know, Victoria, if you can kind of

30:18circle or trace out the triangle of market square in blue so you can see the railway bisecting it.

30:25Just not even you don't have to draw it, but just indicate it. Yeah, there.

30:35So the you can see the railway bisecting it, but

30:40and while it would have originally been open space, it continues to have

30:45these civic uses that trace back to that original plan. The streetscape typologies, we can see a

30:54hierarchy of streets. So primary streets are indicated in yellow and those are Norfolk and

30:59Woolwich. And these are generally wide streets and primarily have standalone buildings.

31:05The downtown main streets are Macdonnell, Wyndham and Quebec. And as mentioned,

31:10these are primary commercial streets. And the types of buildings that we see along these

31:15are commercial building blocks. So buildings that are built to house more than one

31:23storefront and would typically have other uses above. There's many of these are limestone buildings.

31:32And there's a sense of continuity created, particularly along Wyndham Street with the

31:38continuous cornice heights. So we see very consistent building heights throughout the

31:45downtown being two to four stories. All of these streets are supported by the smaller

31:51local streets that are narrow in width and provide a contrast to the larger streets in the area.

31:57So these include Wilson, Cork, Cardin and Douglas. And it was noted through much of the work, both

32:04previous policy work, as well as the historical research, how unique Douglas Street is within

32:10the downtown. And it provides specific views between St. George's Square and St. George's Church.

32:19Go to the next slide. And then you can go forward. So as part of our evaluation, we look at several

32:29different pieces of information to understand the significance of the district and whether the area

32:40is recommended to be a historic conservation district. So our findings are that we are

32:49recommending a heritage conservation district in the downtown. And we've looked at this through

32:57the lens of the Ontario Heritage Act, as well as the guidance provided in Ontario Heritage Toolkit

33:04Heritage Conservation Districts, a guide to district designation under the Heritage Act.

33:10And so the toolkit speaks to a district having a concentration of heritage buildings,

33:16sites, structures, designed landscapes, natural landscapes that are all linked by aesthetic

33:22historical and sociocultural contexts or uses, a framework of structured elements, a sense of

33:28visual coherence, and a distinctiveness which enables the district to be recognized or distinguished

33:34from their surroundings or from neighboring areas. We've also evaluated the district against

33:41the Ontario Heritage Act regulation 906 criteria. If we go to the next slide, we'll take a look at

33:48the recommended boundary. So you can see in red is the study area that we've been looking at.

33:54And the boundary that we're recommending is the purple dashed line. So this boundary enlarges and

34:02refines areas around the study area. So it, we found that this is the area that is visually

34:11distinct from its surroundings. So beyond these areas, the downtown becomes primarily residential.

34:20So while many people understand the downtown to be a much larger area, we're recommending that there

34:29be the Heritage Conservation District focus primarily on the commercial, institutional,

34:34and civic uses that are present within the downtown and contained within this boundary.

34:41This boundary encompasses nearly all of Galt's original 1827 radio plan. So it includes

34:48all five streets of the radio plan, as well as its starting point near the Speed River.

34:59So it's been extended southward and eastward to capture those elements.

35:07Within the study area boundary, there's an interconnected collection of historically

35:12significant and finely executed buildings, streetscapes, and landscape features. And this area

35:18demonstrates the evolution of Gualt to a thriving community and center for industry and commerce

35:25in the heart of a highly productive agricultural region. So this area also includes

35:32further properties to the northwest of the original study area to capture the Raymond

35:39Sewing Company, as well as commercial properties at the corner of Suffolk and Yarmouth Street.

35:48We also see within this boundary several key open spaces. So there's the entirety of

35:54Market Square reflected within this boundary from its original 1827 layout, as well as St.

36:01George's Square. And then at its edges, properties like John Galt Park, Kimberley Park, the small

36:10parkette that contains the IODE fountain. And so these parks are very typical of sort of a

36:20downtown park. They're commemorative in nature. They aren't reflective of the residential surroundings

36:30with residential parks typically being more about play and of containing features like

36:37playground equipment. These are very much key to an understanding of the civic nature of the

36:42downtown. So this is our recommended boundary that we'd like to hear from you about today.

36:50So we'll just go to the next slide. So our next steps generally are to gather and incorporate

36:57feedback through the various engagement sessions that we have planned. So Heritage Guelph being the

37:05first of those will then be speaking with the focus group next week and holding a public open

37:12house after that later in February. We'll be refining a report based on city comments

37:21and feedback from various groups and it will ultimately be circulated for Indigenous communities

37:27feedback and revised as needed coming out of that. And later in the spring, there'll be a staff report

37:34to City Council. So I think we'll turn it back to Victoria. She's going to facilitate our

37:42question and answer and discussion. And I think before we get your feedback, we'll just go through

37:49any clarifying questions. So if you have questions to help understand the content, we can do those

37:58first and then and then we'll gather more general feedback on what you're hearing from our findings.

38:06So it's going to you Victoria.

38:08Thanks Christina. So I think just so I can we can see everyone, I'll just stop sharing just for

38:16clarifying questions. And then kind of when we get into the Q&A, I'll obviously put up

38:23the boundary again so you can have a look and have that up while we kind of go through

38:29your initial thoughts and reactions. So does anyone have any clarifying questions like how

38:37maybe more thoughts on or questions about how the team kind of came to the conclusion of this

38:45boundary? What kind of processes were involved? Kind of what decisions we went through to come to

38:54that end result. We'd love to hear any sort of comments or questions about that.

39:01Cameron, I see. Oh sorry, Sarah.

39:05Okay. Thanks for the presentation. It was great, great background. I'm just wondering,

39:09was there any direct consultation with like individual businesses or was it just kind of like a

39:13public sort of open consultation or was there sort of more directed, you know, questions asked of

39:19businesses themselves given there's so many downtown obviously.

39:23For sure. So I can definitely answer that. We have a few downtown business owners on our focus

39:29group so we do meet with them in kind of that focused time. However, I did meet with the

39:37Downtown Business Association as a whole to present our initial study findings to them and

39:45we are planning to meet with them either at the end of February or end of March. We're going to go

39:50to their monthly board meeting and present these study findings because the initial presentation

39:57was just more of a background presentation.

40:00So we'll be receiving their feedback in that venue as well because you're right. Obviously the downtown businesses have a vested interest in the HCD and the associated plan. So we do plan to continue to engage with them as an association moving forward into the plan phase. Hopefully as well.

40:23Okay. Thanks. Yeah, that's helpful. And I guess.

40:26Was the initial reaction from them positive or I don't know if you could say at this point. Was there any pushback or anything like that?

40:34I think they had questions as they as is their right. I think it's hard to say in general, they were obviously there are many different individuals that make up the entire association.

40:48So I would say there are definitely members who maybe were more positive in their reaction versus members who are a bit more wary in their reaction.

40:57So, obviously, hopefully through further engagement and keeping them in the loop and obviously, I think more getting into the plan phase and really getting their feedback on potential policies.

41:10We're looking to obviously move forward with them and engage them as much as possible. So I would say, you know, the spectrum of reactions probably.

41:21Okay, fair enough. Thanks.

41:27Thank you.

41:28Thank you.

41:29How has any of the steps before that were followed for the prior heritage district.

41:38Desigations followed in this 1.

41:41Or is this a different animal.

41:44The downtown.

41:46I would say the only changes to process.

41:50Well, I think 2 fold obviously because the Brooklyn and college Hill district is very much a residential district.

41:58So you're looking at, you know, different stakeholders, I would say.

42:02And obviously with the reformatory district, it's very much an institutional.

42:09District obviously with the reformatory and the large property that is associated with it.

42:14So I think in terms of process with the downtown district.

42:19Kind of going off cameras question. We do have to engage with business owners and also the downtown is an urban growth center. So we have to keep that in mind.

42:31When thinking about policy because there is.

42:35Development is going to be happening in this area.

42:37And then the other, I would say, change is obviously the impacts of bill 23. So there was the implementation of requiring at least 25% of a district.

42:50Districts properties must meet the criteria for individual designation. So 2 criteria at minimum.

42:57So in that we have to keep that in mind also when obviously developing the boundary to ensure that 25% of the properties within that boundary meets that threshold.

43:08So in terms of those would be, I think the 2 differences based on the other 2 districts and wealth, but other than that, the process is very much the same in terms of.

43:18I'm going through the study phase and also then going through the plan phase and coming and conducting public engagement engagement stakeholders and engagement with the miss.

43:30I'm heritage advisory committee. So I would say those are probably the 2.

43:35Different approaches that were reflected in this district versus the other 2.

43:40Thank you.

43:41Jada, I see you.

43:42Oh, sorry, I think you're muted. I can't. Yeah, yeah.

43:49I was wondering, you know, like I did a small exercise, you know, modest exercise as an urban planner, you know, to review what, you know, what has been done.

43:58And I noticed like there is there is a nice, you know, a very nice like triangle, which is like the wall which, you know, North folk and Quebec. There is a nice and, you know, like, yeah, month.

44:13And, you know, like, yeah, month. There is a kind, you know, bundle of beautiful residential buildings that, you know, like, I saw them also mentioned here in yellow, but not included in the in the in the plan, you know, I was really, you know,

44:31confused because this part is also, you know, has some richness in terms of residential buildings and they're, you know, like, they can they kind of be an added value to this.

44:45And like in this, in this manner, you know, the area will be more defined, you know, like going all along like North folk to the intersection of full which you know the triangle and creating like a, you know, like, instead of like weaving, you know, and like

45:01initiating some parts of this, you know, like, you know, area, you know, and another issue probably like you're trying to focus more on businesses than residential but still, you know, like these buildings have certain potential I think you know and I wonder why like this, you know, like,

45:23you know, instead of going all the way to like the intersection of North folk and you know, and this year with street is very rich also from beginning to end, you know, like, and so that's my, you know, like question about this issue.

45:41Thank you.

45:42No, of course, Joe that that's a great question. And I think kind of even going back to the business portion, we are really trying to the decisions that were made during the study process are to focus on creating a defensible boundary and in that, as you said, we're trying to focus on that commercial core that's downtown and

46:06and once you begin to not diversify a district but maybe include many different building types in terms of residences and commercial properties and civic properties and religious properties.

46:23That creates, I'm sure as you know, you know, and planning that creates a very large and not unwieldy but definitely complex associated plan.

46:32So, in keeping the boundary to the commercial area, it also helps us create a really strong plan if obviously, hopefully we get that far.

46:42And it also provides us a way to have a simplified plan and really focus on policies that are applicable to those commercial and civic and religious spaces.

46:54And that's kind of the process that has obviously created that dichotomy between the East and West side of your myth.

47:05And as a reminder, obviously one of those properties is 123, is it 123 Norfolk? I think that's the address.

47:17And that was identified in our priority exercise.

47:23But we can definitely obviously take that comment and we'll definitely note that and obviously use that to incorporate that into our final draft.

47:36And we can definitely, we'll definitely consider that. But that's why we kind of it's not included right now.

47:42Thank you very much. Thank you.

47:45Hi, Kathy.

47:50Hi, so you've got a few process questions. So it's another one.

47:55There's the downtown renewal project going on. So we're taking up all the infrastructure.

48:02And part of that is the design of things in the downtown like benches, trees, whatever else, maybe some public art. I don't know.

48:13But is, where's the, is there a parallel, so are these just parallel processes or are they integrating at any point to is heritage staff?

48:24Staff having input into that process.

48:28Will that come to heritage wealth at some point? I know there's coming to council soon. So.

48:39Yeah, that's a great question. So as part.

48:45I am also part on the downtown coordination committee. So they're monthly.

48:52Meetings where all projects that are going to going on, sorry, as part of downtown revitalization come together and update each other. So the downtown, HCD falls under the downtown renewal umbrella. So.

49:06It definitely is part of the overall.

49:10Project and overall process. Obviously a small portion and it's a lot going on with the overall renewal goals, but it is coordinated through that. So.

49:23Like, for example, for downtown business association, Stacey Lawland, our downtown renewal advisor, organizes that engagement for us. So she's the person who is able to get us on their agendas and create that relationship for us.

49:40So we definitely work as a whole with downtown renewal.

49:46And in those meetings, when we provide updates.

49:50We're able to get feedback from them and also provide a heritage perspective on any other projects that are going on, or maybe any sort of initiatives that could impact the heritage assets that are downtown. So, and.

50:07In our most recent meeting, we did talk about also coordinating coming to council with downtown renewal. So we're hopefully that we can maintain that schedule as well. So it kind of comes as a whole.

50:21Yeah, because I, you know, I think there'll be questions from some counselors around how the heritage part is.

50:29So, going into that renewal, and I understand a lot of this hard infrastructure stuff, but when you come to the design of the streetscape.

50:39It's I do think it's important that heritage be at the table on that issue. So.

50:48Definitely. And streetscape is something that has been discussed like with Stacey and I in meetings is how heritage can be brought into that.

50:57And have that be included. Okay. Just hopefully that doesn't drop when you leave.

51:03Oh, no, Alisa will take it all over. Don't worry. Thank you.

51:08Everybody, Stephen is helping me because my phone has died and we're in the same room. So I know it says Stephen, but it's Miranda.

51:18I just wanted to second what Jouda was saying in terms of the boundary extending all the way along.

51:25Will which there and meeting at Norfolk. We have important buildings there that are really part of downtown, at least for me when I'm on the other side of Norfolk. I don't see myself as being downtown.

51:38I don't think it's a huge change to just extend that dotted line into sort of the perfect triangle. And I think it is defensible in terms of what falls into that area.

51:50So happy to see that we have the Raymond sewing machine factory included on your street now. That's something that is close to my heart. And I couldn't understand why we would ever exclude your myth.

52:01But on the other side of that dotted line, if I'm not mistaken, we have the Raymond house as well. And I think that's part of the whole story.

52:10As well as the other wonderful buildings there along, which all the way to that, that corner with Norfolk. So I just think what Joe data saying makes sense in terms of having a boundary that looks appropriate.

52:23And, and include some more buildings that are important to downtown. So, thank you for raising that doubt up.

52:32Awesome. Thanks, Miranda. And yeah, we'll definitely take that back and consider it in.

52:38As a whole through obviously this entire second round of engagement for sure.

52:43I think to Victoria, maybe when once we're done clarifying questions and go into discussion, I would love to hear more from people about how the residential area there is distinct from once you cross over Norfolk or head further north.

53:04Yeah, we'll make sure to bring that up in the question.

53:08Or we can actually we can head into it. We could switch. Yeah, go there now.

53:16If we want, I would it be easier for me to share the boundary and then maybe verbally talk through the questions. It just, yeah, that's easier for people. Okay.

53:28Let me bring up the boundary.

53:36Okay.

53:37So, and I'll just bring up. Okay.

53:49So, obviously, um.

53:53In order for structure to follow for the discussion portion, we're initially looking at your reactions to our presented material today.

54:04And obviously that includes reactions and to how the boundary has been defined and then going into if there are any.

54:14City wide uses or community gatherings that happen in downtown wealth that are important to include in the study.

54:22So, I think maybe to facilitate.

54:25Obviously the topical discussion. I think.

54:29In terms of reaction to how the boundaries defined, obviously there are questions or not questions, but maybe concerns about the west side of Yarmouth.

54:38And if we want to talk about.

54:42Um, the distinctions between.

54:47Maybe if the better distinction is Norfolk instead of Yarmouth, it would be great to hear everyone's comments about that. And if we want, if anyone else has the same.

54:58Um, thoughts as Miranda and Joe that it would be great to hear if other members also share this concern about where the boundary is on Yarmouth.

55:12It's camera. I would echo agreement with Miranda. I think.

55:17And you can use sort of circle the triangle we're talking about. It's at the Northwest.

55:22Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would agree with that.

55:26And I think a lot of the buildings there maybe used to be residential, but I think there's still is some.

55:31I think it would tie in nicely and it sort of makes.

55:38Makes sense along the long, long layout of the streets.

55:42So yeah, I would agree.

55:49And do we have any other members who like want to comment or agree about this specific area?

55:57I would agree as well with the comments about extending it.

56:03Awesome. Thank you. Sarah.

56:06I'm with it. I agree. It makes sense to me.

56:10So, so I drew 2 sort of blobs on the map. Can you see those 1 is in yellow and 1 is in blue. And so the yellows would.

56:21Kind of connect Yarmouth over to Norfolk.

56:24But maybe end at Suffolk and then there's an additional triangle that is that extension all the way to where will which and Norfolk meet.

56:35So, I'd be curious on your thoughts related to those 2, but I think when we, when we defend the boundary, I think 1 of the things because we heard from people that downtown.

56:46Is much larger.

56:49We want to be careful about how far we go and so that we can have a very clear distinction between why.

56:57These residential properties and not residential properties across Norfolk, further north.

57:05Or even to the south of Fountain Street.

57:09So anything that you can describe for us would be really useful. I think to help understand how, how would you defend these?

57:18These residences and not including others.

57:22I think I'm okay. So, for me, 1 of the questions was, when do you feel like you're downtown to me? Someone who grew up here.

57:43The answer was always once I crossed Norfolk Street.

57:48Everything to me in that area, Norfolk will which all the way to the borders that the borders as they've been extended.

57:58That to me was downtown Guelph. So, you know, I know there are some residents residences in that grouping and and probably a couple of other important places on the inside the boundary.

58:14I just think if you spoke to any well fight and I did talk to some during the walking tour.

58:20And during the little workshop we had here at City Hall.

58:25That that area just seems to make sense to include.

58:31And I, a lot of those places may at 1 time have been residential and others now used as business and some were, I believe, originally businesses as well. The 1s along which street anyway.

58:43Great. Thanks Miranda. Does anyone want to maybe jump off that comment or go into.

58:59Other detail about how Norfolk Street or even South Folk Street.

59:08Creates a division in downtown.

59:14Or doesn't.

59:15Yeah, it's camera here. I would agree with Miranda said that yeah, once you cross Norfolk, it feels like you're leaving kind of a residential space and entering a downtown space to me.

59:24And like just looking in that blue triangle, I guess I think a lot of those buildings are uses businesses now anyway, right? It's not really residential there anyway.

59:34So, yeah, to me, I agree with Miranda. It feels.

59:40Less residential.

59:42Once you cross Norfolk.

59:44I agree with that too. I'm just looking at the Google Earth map as well just to sort of fill this in. It helps me sort of visualize what's going on on that street and it does feel like sort of West Southwest of Norfolk things really shift.

1:00:04Into and like the, you can see even just the way the streets are aligned, right? Like it really changes into more heavily residential and not that mixed use that we talked about being so clearly like the definition of downtown.

1:00:22So, like, northeast of Norfolk, all the way up to that triangle, the blue triangle, we do have that where it fits with the rest of the feeling and then Southwest of that really falls into like individual residential properties.

1:00:39Awesome. Those are great comments. Laura. Thank you.

1:00:53And does anyone else want to talk about this, this area, the feel, maybe even we had obviously Laura mentioned the street layout and how that is.

1:01:08That contributes to the feel of this division of Norfolk Street.

1:01:16Which I can definitely see that when you look at going, you know, West of Norfolk, it's wholly residential at that point. Does anyone else want to kind of work off that or are there any other kind of descriptions that come to mind, even like tree canopy.

1:01:43Or even when do you, when do you feel that you have entered downtown? Because obviously so specifically at Norfolk and Suffolk or.

1:01:57Are we talking up up near.

1:01:59Will which in Norfolk might be a good question also to discuss.

1:02:05I'd say once you come through that weird five way intersection at will which in Norfolk, it kind of feels like you're entering downtown to me.

1:02:14I don't know. It seems like such a gual downtown thing that intersection. I don't know why.

1:02:21The weird intersecting layouts, right of the earlier layout of downtown and then trying to mesh with the later layout of the surrounding residential area.

1:02:29I'd agree with that too that funny five way.

1:02:32Intersection does make a difference. I do think that.

1:02:36You know, we are kind of agonizing over this because I think that this is sort of the transition area between the surrounding residential to downtown.

1:02:45So, it does have sort of shades of both because it's that edge of downtown.

1:02:52But I think if we're defining it by this mixed use and older buildings and residential and commercial, I think it fits in really well that whole section.

1:03:01I can jump into as someone who has not been a lifelong resident of wealth and maybe has a very shorter term memory of this area.

1:03:13I do think that 5 sort of weird branching thing is for someone who would drive from London road into downtown 12 quite often it does feel like you're driving into downtown wealth at that point.

1:03:23In a much shorter time frame for myself as a resident of the city, but maybe that's helpful to contrast like as a lifelong resident where they feel it and someone who's a newer transplanting.

1:03:33Well, that I would agree that that's sort of weird intersection there.

1:03:37Especially someone who would drive in is where it really, really felt all of a sudden you're entering downtown.

1:03:43These comments are super helpful in kind of obviously as Laura said, this is.

1:03:52You know, there's there's transition areas that's the hardest part about the study is really identifying hard limits for any sort of heritage feature Kim is difficult.

1:04:04So, it's really good to hear these kinds of comments and I know it's difficult for committee members to like.

1:04:12Like, what your like put your finger directly on what you're feeling, but yeah, these comments are really helpful, especially with identifying obviously this.

1:04:21I also know the specific intersection. So that's really great for staff to hear.

1:04:27Do.

1:04:30Do committee members want to continue to talk about this area or are there other areas of the boundary or of how the boundary was arrived at that we want to talk about or do we still want to talk about this area.

1:04:46I think, how does hand up to say sorry.

1:04:49Sorry, sorry.

1:04:50Yes.

1:04:52You know, I agree also as an urban planner, you know, like looking at, you know, like, I cannot, you know, like dissect, you know, year month one side from the you see like it has one side, you know, on the air month and you have you know that north fork on the other.

1:05:12And now this band of houses, you know, make, you know, like, unite together, you know, on both sides so, you know, dissecting them and taking one side only that of the arm of, you know, and not the other one is like kind of also not fair, you know, because they can have a certain

1:05:32continuity of continuation, you know, this is also one of the urban aspects that I like, you know, felt as a, you know, like urban planner when I was like analyzing this area.

1:05:45So, this is also one of the, you know, comments.

1:05:52Okay, that's good.

1:05:53Good feedback on that on that area.

1:05:58Yeah.

1:06:00So, if we're okay. So, obviously we've heard committee members to about their concerns and their comments about this northwest portion of the.

1:06:15Of the boundary and including the residential areas up to the wonky intersection.

1:06:24So that's great to hear.

1:06:27Are there any other reactions to how the boundaries been defined or questions about.

1:06:36I know we kind of went over questions about the material presented. But other than this area, are there any other, is there anything that kind of jumps out at committee members.

1:06:46Cameron here just on the north end along the river there. So the recommended boundary kind of jogs in a little bit there. I'm wondering the reasoning for that. I think there's the trail on the river there. And I guess the railway tracks too.

1:07:02Is.

1:07:03Part of the reason to be the railway situation or.

1:07:08So, the reasoning behind that is we wanted to.

1:07:13Respect the boundary of the river because in the chap.

1:07:18In our action plan, the riverscape is identified as its own cultural heritage landscape.

1:07:24So, obviously in the study area, it goes right up to the river and the start of the river. So, in order to create that.

1:07:35Thicotomy between the HCD and the river.

1:07:39We kind of the boundary reflects the boundary. Sorry, the boundary reflects the edges of the property lines.

1:07:47Before hitting the river. So yeah, that's why it jogs in a bit just because of the trails surrounding the river.

1:07:55And so hopefully the river can be addressed in its own.

1:07:59Obviously, as its own CHL is its own separate landscape.

1:08:05Opposed to within the HCD.

1:08:08And I could, I could speak to that a little bit further in that.

1:08:13The way the topography of the land sort of works along that north edge and related to the river is that will which release it's up on that plateau of the downtown.

1:08:26And then there's a distinct drop and that's the river is very visually disconnected from that space on the plateau.

1:08:35Unlike other river communities where the river is very visually prominent through the downtown.

1:08:41Guelphs is quite separate. So, I think that acknowledgement of the river and the industrial lands that lie low along the river as a separate space from the commercial downtown.

1:08:54And how that was recognized in the drawing up of the CHL's for us was was reinforced through what we were seeing there as well.

1:09:04Okay, yeah, that makes that makes sense to me. What about the bridges, I guess across the river.

1:09:10That sort of connected downtown. Would they be part of the river escape CHL or downtown one or both.

1:09:19So the way the way the boundary is being proposed is that the bridges would be separate from the downtown CHL and our HCD and then they would then form part of that river escape.

1:09:35Okay.

1:09:37We really quickly why sort of what the commentary is to expand the boundary out that northeast side to include that corner.

1:09:56Just sure.

1:10:02This is at this area.

1:10:05Or somewhere else that area.

1:10:08Okay.

1:10:10Awesome. Yeah, we can. Oh, sorry. Do you want to speak to Victoria or do you want me to.

1:10:15I feel like you can go first. I can, I can supplement.

1:10:19Okay, so the way that the plan was laid out in the 1820s.

1:10:26There's those five radial streets and we felt that it was important to include the point where those streets radiate from. So it's right around where Woolwich and Macdonnell intersect today.

1:10:41The street configuration has changed through this area and the lauding pattern over time.

1:10:48But it still is, is an important part of where those streets meet up. So that's why we've extended it to include that area.

1:10:57So that you get the full length of the radio streets as they go from that starting point to where they terminate and transition to the regular grid pattern outside of the downtown commercial core.

1:11:15Awesome. Thank you. So there isn't something that I'm missing in there. Like, I know the park is in there at the riverside, but like everything else in there is pretty.

1:11:23Modern.

1:11:25So it's just the street alignment really that's pulling that in.

1:11:30I will say that in Priory Park, there is the blacksmith fountain, which is a designated fountain that originally sat in St. George's Square.

1:11:42And that is honestly one of the oldest designations in in Guelph.

1:11:50So that, including that in the city, I think is also an important feature of kind of extending this eastward. And I would say that's 1 of the.

1:12:01As you say, it was moved obviously to its current location. If you think about it, it's right by the old cooperators building, but it's there now. And I think it is an important feature to to include in the city for that reason.

1:12:15Oh, thank you. Appreciate it.

1:12:18Victoria, can you go back to slide 17 for a second just to.

1:12:28I think it shows the nexus point of the the radio streets really well and I think I totally agree that it's important to capture that kind of.

1:12:38Point where they meet in the original layout of the city.

1:12:44Yeah, that that one. So yeah, that's sort of like, I guess it's like the vertex of the radio arms. It is.

1:12:50I agree totally important to capture.

1:12:55Thanks Cameron. This is great context to add for sure. You can really see that.

1:13:00Radial plan alignment in this image.

1:13:11Okay, I'll go back to you.

1:13:13You can just jump right in. No worries.

1:13:17Also, I want to add this, you know, there is also the farm market, which is an added value also contextual that is added in this new addition, which will, you know, give vibration, you know, and activity to the to the to the area, you know, it's

1:13:37activity that takes place every Saturday, you have people going back and forth and so this, you know, like farm market is included now. I'm really happy. You know, this is also very, very contextual in terms of, you know, culture.

1:13:50The addition of the area being in agriculture, you know, area and, you know, it's it's preserving it's it's, you know, like a history and tradition.

1:14:00Yeah, we really heard that from people and I think that's that's part of this continuity of market square. It's larger function through the 19th century.

1:14:11Before it was divided and then how it got used after its division by the railway that there was still these market functions occurring.

1:14:20And they continue right up to present.

1:14:33I think I feel like we've gone sort of around to the full edges of the boundary.

1:14:39And I think it would be great to get feedback as well on the values that we've defined for what's contained within that boundary. So, just to recap maybe at a high level.

1:14:53The components that were sort of highlighting as the significant pieces are the radio plan and its effects over time on the downtown streets, scapes and buildings and people's understanding of downtown and their identification with it.

1:15:12And the market square and its original configuration and how it's evolved over time with its railway functions and civic functions.

1:15:23The idea of this area being a regional center so it's selection as a district town for the district of Wellington and so we have the court houses and the jail and then Douglas street with its concentration of legal offices.

1:15:41The railway also being part of that narrative of the regional center.

1:15:47Being a major stop on the early railway network and attracting large industries and exporting goods and resources such as the limestone and the subsequent hotels that emerge.

1:15:59Which is a huge improximity to the railway stations.

1:16:04And then the last major component is the broader economic commercial and industrial composition of the downtown.

1:16:13So limestone being a key natural resource and resulting in commercial and industrial buildings that have a visual unity.

1:16:22The wealth of the population and aspirations for the city, which led to architect design buildings and features.

1:16:30There's many buildings in the downtown with rounded or chamfered features at street corners.

1:16:37Those sort of commercial spines along Wyndham, Quebec and Macdonnell.

1:16:44Some of the evolved qualities of Macdonnell street. The financial uses around St. George's square.

1:16:52And then the remnant industrial sites with Raymond sewing and the belt organ and piano company buildings.

1:17:01So we'd love to hear if we were missing something if those resonate with you.

1:17:07We're on the right track.

1:17:17I really love it. It's so far very good. You know, it's, you know, it covers most of, you know, the issues that I really, you know, love to see in a heritage district study.

1:17:33And, you know, good.

1:17:36Mainly, you know, landmarks identified, you know, limestone and the quarry, all these issues, you know, the social, you know, I have a very nice, very good work. Thank you.

1:17:48Great. That's great. Thanks.

1:17:52I would agree. I'm really happy to see the boundary and the proposed boundary extended the way that it is. It's to me, it makes a lot more sense.

1:18:01For the reasons that we were already discussed in terms of what's included.

1:18:05And if we could add that little triangle in the 5 points intersection, I think.

1:18:10I think it would be perfect and I think easily explained to members of the public and business owners downtown as well.

1:18:17Awesome. Thanks, Miranda.

1:18:42Is there any as just obviously we don't want to miss anything. So.

1:18:46And 1 of the questions that kind of was on our slide is if there are any sort of public events or public spaces.

1:18:55That should be included in the study. So, I think maybe if that if people can.

1:19:04Bring that vein into thinking if there's or pondering if there's anything missing from the statement of significance or the attributes.

1:19:15Yeah, if there are any city wide events or uses in the downtown that should be included that maybe haven't been mentioned.

1:19:25Anything like that. Obviously, we love the praise, but.

1:19:29We can take it.

1:19:31So, Victoria, are you just asking what events occur downtown annually that you think would be useful to include?

1:19:42Yeah, so, like, for example, when we went out to the public, a lot of people talked about the Sleiman center and the Senate half and about remembrance day ceremonies and also the route that the parade would take downtown.

1:19:57So those kinds of.

1:20:00Events like maybe some things that happen downtown and you always think of it happening downtown and if it maybe was moved somewhere else, you'd be like, why?

1:20:11Kind of.

1:20:12Yes.

1:20:12Okay.

1:20:13For me, that event is art in the street and we have it in June every year downtown and it it's all up and down Quebec street, but also.

1:20:24You know, that that parking lot as well as included on, I guess it's Mack, no.

1:20:32Or what am I thinking of? Or is it on Quebec street?

1:20:35That event is well attended and I can't imagine it being any other place, but downtown.

1:20:41Awesome. That's a great example. Thanks, Miranda.

1:20:46And there's also the studio tours where you can go and see. There are a couple of artists studios on.

1:21:05Just off Douglas street along, which there and on Wyndham as well during the studio tour. I usually go to those as well.

1:21:16And they couldn't be anywhere else, I guess that's where the artists studios are.

1:21:21But no, that's great. That's I don't think I'd remember hearing about that in public in our 1st round of public engagement. So that's really that's a great example.

1:21:49If there's anything, anything else, any final, final thoughts or.

1:21:59Final reactions, obviously we've heard really great comments today.

1:22:06Praise and obviously some constructive criticism, which we'll definitely take and take back and consider.

1:22:12But I'm getting the feeling that maybe is there anything that community members want to get off there?

1:22:21There's just anything final they want to say or continue the conversation?

1:22:28One question. I just want to add something, you know, like.

1:22:34The downtown needs to be revived more, you know, like.

1:22:39I know where I came from, like if you're more real, you know, where you have, you know, all these artists throwing sketches, you know, your music all the time happening, you know.

1:22:49Animation taking place, like in promenade flurry where I used to be in charge, you know, like there used to be like ice sculpture contests, you know, where they bring these ice, you know, cubes and they sculpture statues and do contests, you know, and things like that.

1:23:07I, you know, like, I, you know, I'm really, you know, sad when I go to downtown, I see it kind of, you know, you know, like not as it is supposed to be.

1:23:19So there should be, there is a role for the city also to engage, you know, people more in new vibrant activities, mainly in, you know, like St. George's Square, you know, which is really a beautiful area where you can take advantage of it, you know, for many activities.

1:23:37Thank you.

1:23:42Thanks, I think Cameron, you had something to say as well.

1:23:45Yeah, thanks Victoria.

1:23:47I can't, I don't know if we've mentioned the the Basilica at all. Obviously, I know that's not part of the study area, but just want to stress the importance of like the views to the church and looking down Mactanella and from the rest of the downtown, you can kind of see it from everywhere.

1:24:01So that I think isn't important to note as well.

1:24:06I think it's been brought up before.

1:24:07Yeah, and we looked, we looked at the views again as part of our review of policy.

1:24:15And so those views are protected through the official plan.

1:24:19So they won't have additional mention in the HCD, but that they are protected in the way that they are able to be.

1:24:28Right, right. Okay, thanks.

1:24:31I would give some thought to whether there was anything downtown that had a significance throughout the county, you know, historically, and all I could come up with was the county building, the courthouse needs to have public hanging in the back of the.

1:24:49Courthouse, so it's in the district, I think we're okay, but I don't think I'm missing anything for the county.

1:24:57Well, it's historical role down in the downtown is the center of the county, but.

1:25:03That was the thing I looked at.

1:25:09Yeah, I would agree.

1:25:11You know, county courthouses and the jail are beautiful properties and, you know, the county has.

1:25:21They're all obviously in use by the county currently and obviously since they're civically owned, I think they're and they're designated as well.

1:25:32So, you know, they come at very little risk, but I think you're right. And I'm glad that they're included because they are such an.

1:25:40Important civic use and really relate to how wealth was a regional center, as you said, like as that heritage attribute state along with market square, you know, people came from all over the county to Guelph to.

1:25:56Sell the wares and to run their errands, run their civic errands in terms of if they had to go.

1:26:03Into the courthouse or, you know, talk to.

1:26:06Someone important, so it's really great that they're included and.

1:26:12Yeah, even though there may have been some hangings there in the past, but it's a beautiful space now.

1:26:18If you ever want to walk through it.

1:26:22You all the time.

1:26:33Yes, your hand.

1:26:38Was that me? I didn't catch you.

1:26:39Oh, sorry. Yep. Kathy. Sorry. I saw your hand.

1:26:43So this may be an odd one, but I'm thinking hockey has taken place in downtown Guelph.

1:26:51I mean, one of the things when they were considering moving the, you know, memorial gardens.

1:26:58It was to, you know, that it had to stay in the downtown because the downtown was the

1:27:03civic heart of the community. So for, you know, almost 100 years, I think the memorial gardens,

1:27:10I think it was built, it was in the 30s. Maybe I may be wrong on that. I may be wrong.

1:27:16But anyway, you know, the people have come downtown on.

1:27:20On, uh, at night to on weekends to see the game or whenever the game took playing. So it's

1:27:29hockey has been a mainstay of the entertainment in the downtown. And, you know, just like somebody

1:27:34else was mentioning, just, you know, the festivals and music set part of them take place in the

1:27:41downtown usually. No, I think that's a great point, especially considering a bunch of us went to a

1:27:51golf storm game on Friday, you know, so we definitely enjoy and even as someone growing up in Guelph,

1:27:58you know, I feel like everyone's been to a storm game and, and as you said,

1:28:06everyone goes downtown and you go out before downtown, before the game around downtown.

1:28:12And it's a really, it's a communal space, especially, you know, in the context of

1:28:17Canada hockey is certainly a time that everyone comes together. So I think that's a great point.

1:28:24Yeah. So you could get a little more history than on sort of a, you know, memorial gardens. And I

1:28:28know it was built off to the second, I guess it was actually now that I'm refreshing my memory.

1:28:33I think it was after the second World War, but, um, but anyway, yeah, I think it's something to

1:28:39maybe tie into, you know, how the, how Guelph is maintained, you know, try to maintain it as a

1:28:47civic and social heart of the community. Yeah, I think that's super. Honestly, Jack and I were

1:28:58having this discussion this morning about the position of, um, arenas and other cities and how

1:29:05Guelph is so having it downtown is so important and having it be the center. Instead of having it,

1:29:13you know, on the outskirts where you have to drive 30 minutes or, you know, and that's the only way to

1:29:19get there. Whereas, um, downtown is obviously a meeting space and maintaining that as a center for

1:29:27hockey is, um, really, really great. It was a bit of a fight. It was a good thing that fit right into

1:29:33the Eaton Center, into the Eaton store. I think it won by one vote because they were going to put it in

1:29:39the West End. But yeah, it was, that was the argument at the time, so how important that was.

1:29:48It's great to know. Any more hands I'm not seeing or final comments? As if everyone's comfortable,

1:30:13then I think I might put it back to Sarah, um, and I'll stop sharing my screen. Thank you so

1:30:21much to everyone. That was a really, um, constructive and productive meeting. And, um,

1:30:28I really appreciate all your comments, um, and your valuable opinions on our initial findings of our city.

1:30:39Excellent. Thanks, Victoria. And thanks for your commitment to this, especially this being your

1:30:42last official day at the city. So thank you. I know we will definitely miss you. Not part of

1:30:47this section, but I think we can still plug that. Um, I'll move on to the next item then and see if

1:30:52there are any staff announcements. Jack's got something perfect. Yeah, just very briefly,

1:31:04want to acknowledge that today is Victoria's last day at the city. Victoria and I both started on

1:31:11the exact same day in June 2022, and it's been a real, real work coaster since then. And I just

1:31:19wanted to say that, uh, you've been a very valuable team member and I, the heritage team is

1:31:25going to miss you. And I assume heritage golf is going to miss you too. Um, on the flip side of that,

1:31:32I also want to welcome our new heritage research assistant, Bob, if you can turn your camera on.

1:31:38There's Bob. Um, so he's already hit the ground running with, um, designation research in the

1:31:45last week. So, uh, yeah, he's going to be churning out some good stuff for us. So he joined me in

1:31:51saying bye to Victoria and welcoming Bob. And that's, that's it for staff presentation or staff

1:31:59updates from me at least. So awkward. Like to be applaud online or what's the protocol? In your

1:32:08rims all alone. Yeah. Yeah, so just another thank you to Victoria and welcome to Bob for sure.

1:32:15Uh, well, without if there are no other announcements, um, Jack, do we need a formal

1:32:20adjournment for a workshop or I have to have someone move in second? Yes. Okay. So would

1:32:26someone please move the, uh, adjournment of today's meeting? Thank you. Ciao, dad. And a

1:32:31seconder. Thank you, Miranda. All those in favor? Clara, I can't see you or hear you,

1:32:39but I'm going to assume we're good. Perfect. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks everyone. And once again,

1:32:51thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. Thank you so much. Thanks all. Bye.