Heritage Guelph

0:01I'm glad or price Sarah is winning from black office that we have Corum. Thank you.

0:07Excellent thanks can I just know who's in the room? It's so small on my screen that I have no idea besides Stephen and Jack who's around the table.

0:15Brando is here and David Kamalini has emailed me to say he's on his way to City Hall. So.

0:21He'll likely arrive soon. Perfect and is Alex here?

0:27Not yet. I understand Alex is coming, but perhaps I'll go check the wall.

0:33I had to actually ask someone to let me through the second door. I can bring me out. I haven't done the whole.

0:40Perfect. Alright, so we have Corum, which is fantastic. We may have David and Alex joining us soon.

0:48I'm going to.

0:50Turn my email off so we don't listen to that during the meeting.

0:54So, hello everyone, I'll call the today's meeting of April 3rd, 2025 of heritage, Guelph to order. Welcome all committee members, staff and invited guests who are attending today.

1:04I'll begin with our land acknowledgement. So, as we gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live in work in Guelph, a city built over rich indigenous histories.

1:14We are guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land. The people who've lived here today and the generations to come.

1:22If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation, we should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude.

1:30This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for many peoples over time, but more specifically the Atawan drunk and the Haudenosaunee.

1:39This land is held as a treaty lands and territory with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation. Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman tract and is part of a long established traditional hunting ground for the 6 nations of the Grand River.

1:51Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples who have come from across Turtle Island call Guelph home today.

1:58We will move into disclosure of pecuniary interest and the general nature thereof. I have a conflict with item 3.4.

2:07It deals with the University of Guelph, which is my employer. So, Kim, it will be taking over chairing duties at that point and we'll finish out the meeting for me because it is the last item on the agenda.

2:16Are there any other disclosures? No? Alright, so we will move into approval of the minutes from the March 6th meeting. Is there someone who will move the motion as stated?

2:34Thank you, Kelly. A seconder. Thank you, Kim. All those in favor. Excellent. Thanks, everyone.

2:42So, we're going to move into the consent agenda and I'll note that 108 Queen Street does have a delegation. So, it is going to move out of the consent agenda and there'll be a chance to have a presentation from the delegate after the consent agenda.

2:58So, on our consent agenda, we have the following properties. 14 Mitchell Street, 5 Queen Street, 1949 Gordon Street, 15 Gordon Street, 75 Suffolk Street, 77 Suffolk Street, and 79 Suffolk Street.

3:13Are there any questions or comments in relation to any of those properties on the consent agenda?

3:22Seeing none. Is there someone who will move the motions in relation to those properties?

3:28Thank you. We'll go with Kim and then Kelly, if you don't mind seconding, all those in favor.

3:37Excellent. Alright, so we are going to move on then to 108 Queen Street.

3:46And if the delegate in the room would like to introduce themselves and I don't believe there's a formal presentation from Stephen,

3:52but if the delegate would like to speak to the property that this is probably the ideal time.

4:11My name is Helen Hall. My family has lived at the property for more than 50 years.

4:21My father presented me with a report that was done in 2008 and my background on reading it and my knowledge of the property, much of it didn't make sense.

4:32So I looked at primary research and last year I spoke to Stephen, gave him some information and we continued to look at it and so let me just talk to him.

4:47Thank you for allowing me to speak to you today. Mr. Mellon of the city pointed out that heritage attributes cannot be identified until the underlying criterion are identified.

4:58The criterion presented in the draft council designation report 2025 175 are significantly incorrect and misrepresent heritage attributes.

5:10With respect to criterion one, the description of style type expression, material and construction method are incorrect.

5:19The original house is not easily identifiable from 20th century modifications.

5:25The front third of the building was constructed between 1847 and 1855, not 1830s.

5:36There are no existing plans drawings or photographs prior to 1955. No city permit prior to 1940, no evidence of design.

5:47The middle part of the house and the final third of the house were constructed in the 20th century as part of successive renovations, including the removal of any tail and side wing at the front third.

6:02The front part of the house is collated aluminum sided. The windows at the top and side do not match the windows at the bottom.

6:11The door to the balcony does not match windows or front door.

6:15There is no evidence as to when the balcony was built or its original design, but it has been rebuilt many times since it is a wood.

6:26There is no evidence of timber frame and the appearance and data the house would suggest none.

6:31Timber frame was evident when nails were expensive, capital and highly skilled labor was available to build wealthy homes.

6:38There was a sawmill immediately across the Speed River that would provide dimensional lumber and nails were cheap and plentiful in late 1840s early.

6:51The balloon framing and has been renovated to incorporate platform framing techniques. This is not a rare or unusual technique.

7:01In regards to criteria 4, the description of persons is incorrect. The significance to the community is not established. The house was owned and maintained by funds controlled by women from 1840.

7:18The emphasis on the men's accomplishment is misleading. The Mitchell's lived in a house on another property located between Metcalf and Stevenson until 1847.

7:31John Mitchell died in 1861. He left the Queen Street Parmig to his wife and Mitchell and substantial land holdings for her support.

7:40In 1913 Emma Goldie inherited the house from her mother and Mitchell and lived there until 1940 where upon children from her marriage to Thomas Goldie,

7:53Roswell and Francis Goldie inherited the house. It was Roswell and Francis Goldie who sold the house to Bedford family in 1955.

8:04Funding of construction and renovation of the house was through proceeds of sale of land and Goldie business dealings.

8:12John Mitchell, land agent for the Canada Company and his dealings with Ulster Connections which were extensive so it's not just the Canada Company.

8:23Sales of land and development and land around the property supported as widow, the widow and Mitchell.

8:30And that's where she put money into the house and Emma Goldie and Roswell Goldie had sale lands inherited from the Goldie's and Goldie trust funds.

8:41So that's where the money came in was the second house part of the house for the tale.

8:46The report demonstrates a lack of knowledge of 19th century economic and social history, particularly regarding women.

8:52Restrictions on voting eligibility and the reliance on family in harsh economic terms.

8:58Regarding criteria seven, the contextual value described as incorrect.

9:04Property was not used for agricultural purposes.

9:07John Mitchell was a land agent and successful land developer. His wife was his business partner.

9:13His sons were merchant, lawyer, minister.

9:16One daughter married a wealthy businessman's son and the other married minister.

9:21The funds to maintain the property were obtained from the sale of land and business earnings. This was a business family.

9:31Regarding criteria eight, the orientation of the property and its contextual value is incorrect. The property identification is incorrect.

9:39This property was not used for agriculture.

9:42The house was not a farmhouse, but was the residence of a middle class family with Ulster Roots.

9:48The house faced toward Aramasa, not toward the speed.

9:53Photographs of late 19th century show evidence of the busy pre-industrial area down by the speed of a forge, a cooper, staples, mill and on the river.

10:03The view was anything but picturesque and vegetation around the house in the earliest picture shielded any side of the house and therefore shielded the house from the ugly view.

10:13The John Mitchell farmhouse

10:16original was demolished to build the retail plaza in the Costco area.

10:23That is, this is not the John Mitchell farmhouse.

10:26The end of my presentation.

10:33Thank you.

10:35So we're open to questions or comments now from committee members to Helen.

10:41Is it okay if I call you Helen?

10:44Perfect. So you're welcome to ask questions of Helen. If anyone is in the room, you're welcome just to speak because I can't, I won't be able to see if you raise your hand as clearly.

10:52Helen, you've obviously done a lot of research.

11:00It's primary research and then quickly difficult, I'll say difficulty is that there aren't sufficient resources

11:08provided to this committee and to the city of Guelph.

11:11So there's a clipping file in the Guelph library.

11:17There are microfiche and microfilms that are not particularly well managed out in the open on the basement floor of the Guelph library.

11:26We have the Guelph Museum with archivists and they're wonderful. They have maps.

11:31But most of the information is held at the Ontario Archives, which is in New York University

11:37or the Wellington Archives, which is quite a bit further north.

11:42So, you know, it takes time to go through these things. There was also academic articles that you can go through, but I know you don't have research assistance.

11:52There's not a lot of resources that are offered to this committee and certainly there are not a lot of resources within Guelph.

12:00I mean, the Guelph library really is not primary research.

12:04The museum, I think, has some federal funds, but they certainly have the maps that are there.

12:09But so I see the issue with more to do with the fact that you guys just don't have proper resource.

12:18And in your collection of this information, is this fairly recent or did you do this way back when you first saw?

12:24When I first saw the 2008 report, it didn't make sense. There are a lot of contradictions in that report.

12:31I know the person who lived there, Mr. Bedford, he bought the house and wanted the house to have an image because he was selling the furniture, selling the tea furniture.

12:41So his story is usually been a great narrator. So when you buy an antique, you don't care if it's real or true.

12:48He just want that great story. So he was a fantastic story telling.

12:56It's really difficult to find information.

12:59You know, the difficult to find information on the internet. You actually have to drill down and start looking at official documents.

13:08I looked at Will's. There's a book here that sort of helped me get going.

13:16It's about the Canada Company. So once I started looking into the footnotes, that book is not available on the library.

13:23There are no books. It's not available. No, there's hardly anything in the library that's available that would help somebody who was looking for the history of the wealth of the Canada Company.

13:32But there are books out there. So the Canada Company and the Huron tract 18-18-53.

13:38Yeah. And then if you start written by a diplomat, so imagine what they're going to start reading the footnotes.

13:46Footnotes, you go to the footnotes and you read that there's information. So you follow through the books.

13:53There are wills. So the wills that you can look at are John Mitchell's will, which is handwritten.

14:01But it's not very well maintained. There's one on microfilm in the Guelph Library. I think it's not even crook.

14:07So you have to go out to Wellington Archives to look at it and it's been partially transcribed.

14:12If you want to read Emma Mitchell's will, even Guelph Library, and then, I'm sorry, Anne Mitchell's will, and Guelph Library, Emma Mitchell's, Emma Goldie's will,

14:23you have to go to the Ontario Archives and you have to pay for that to pull the copy. You have to know how to use the Ontario Archives and go through all of that.

14:30So it takes a little bit of time, but you would have to get a recent treat to give them that.

14:35And that's really what it's about. And then there are various things that have come to note.

14:42How did I know 1847 in 1855? The Guelph Museum has a map, which is John Mitchell's

14:54essentially real estate survey, where he surveyed the lots for sale of lots. So all of the lots, all the way down to Arthur Street.

15:03And then all the way up to Queen Street, he's worked out the lots. And if you read the inscriptions in the corner, it's how much he's going to loan each person for the sale of lots.

15:15So that's what he does. He's a land developer. In those days, you could have said he was a land speculator, but I don't think he held it for that long to be or flipped it for a land speculation.

15:25But he's a land developer. Essentially, nowadays, he can be a real estate agent.

15:29Okay. And he got, he had connections with people who were also buying this land, who were Ulster. There's a very strong Ulster Irish influence throughout this area.

15:43Again, I mean, it's interesting, but I think it's hard and there isn't quite a lot of data on that.

15:49And then the 18, the other side, the 1847, I gave Stephen a map, which,

16:02fortuitously, I'm looking at through this book and it says the Canada Company had a map for every area that they, in this case, they showed you Godfrey.

16:12So we went up to the Wellington County Museum and the Wellington County Museum says, sure, I have a copy of that lot for Guam, though. Okay.

16:23And then you have the lots from Arnott Street all the way up to probably both on the wall. That's both on the wall. That would be.

16:35So, and then on the, we have the deed to the land and on the back of the deed, because it's the land that said block one and two. I'm making sense to us before, but now it makes sense.

16:47Because that was lots one and two. There is also,

16:53so they owned land down by the Arthagery. Then they moved my land, which is one and two, which is probably King Street to Delhi.

17:05They did not own from Delhi the next lot. Then they owned lots from four and five, which is about Mecca, Stevenson.

17:15Okay, so you also go to Fences.

17:21One of the interesting things that has come up is that there's an article written by a historian, there's Wellington, the advertisers.

17:29It turns out that Ann Mitchell was pulled in as a witness for the defense in the murder trial of the first murder in Guam.

17:43A lot of conferences that so she was a witness to the defense. So what has happened? Why is she witness to the defense? She's the witness to the defense because

17:57there was a horrible sort of riot between the families and various friends. And in the, and that happened, I think it happened over a couple of days, but basically they were running around fighting with each other.

18:11And in the fight, the Catholic son killed the Protestant son, right by, which is right by what would be Wolfrod Mall.

18:23So what happened was they ran into her house. Well, her house would have been the stone two-story house, which is listed as her son's house in the census of 1861,

18:39which is down new Wolfrod Mall. So that's a lot four and five. So what we have, we have a property tax assessments and our property tax assessments show various activity for one house, which is a two-story house.

18:55Unfortunately, these horrible assessments don't indicate they say frame or stone. And then you look at the other activities, which is 1840, and there's a house down in 1840.

19:08So what has happened is she and her family, and if you look at the dates of birth of her children, they were born prior to them buying the land. It had lots of women to work.

19:19What's going on here? What's going on here is they're living in a house down closer to Wolfrod Mall between Metcalf and Stevenson. So we're trying to date the house.

19:31Okay, they're living in 1847. It's possible. I mean, if you look at the property assessment, there is a one-story house in 1840.

19:40So is that the beginning of the house? Is that just a structure you put on the house to prevent somebody saying, you're not developing the land? We don't know. We just don't know.

19:50But if she was living down near Metcalf and Stevenson in 1847, that may sense in terms of the birth of her son. It may sense in terms of what was her witness at the trial.

20:04She's prostituted and she was pulled into witness for a Catholic boy. But I don't think at that time the Irish, she's not.

20:15She's not of the religion that she would be anti-prostate, anti-Catholic. She was a Godly woman, I'm sure, but that wasn't her belief.

20:25So what has happened is we've got an 18, so we have this spirit map, 1847, but she's not living there. It could have had structures there, I don't know.

20:35And then we've got 1855 where I have a map where he's basically got a survey. So, and there's a pictograph in the corner in 1850. So that's the main boundary as far as the age of the house.

20:49Okay, so it's that sort of research that needs to be done by researching.

20:53Okay.

20:55And just in terms of why you came today, is it fair to say that you came to correct the record because you don't agree with the city's list of heritage attributes?

21:05The heritage attributes come out of this. So for one thing, there's no evidence of...

21:11Timber frame.

21:13Okay, I know about that. I mean, if you go to Fairfield House, do you know where... Do you know Fairfield House?

21:17Okay, do you know Fairfield House, Stephen?

21:19Yes, I do.

21:20Okay, that is Timber frame. It's a gorgeous piece of Timber frame technology, and it's massive. And the person who lives there was wealthy and it's loyalist.

21:30Okay, there's no Timber frame here. There's no evidence of Timber frame. And for whatever we've done in the house, it's always been very light frame.

21:40So it's going to be blue frame. But my problem with this house, as far as looking at heritage attributes, is there's been an enormous amount of change to the house.

21:51The middle of the house is not what it once was. I have no idea what they did before.

21:56It's 20th century. It's going to be Emma Goldie, who had money. And then when, if you look at the firemaps, you can see there was a wing that's been removed.

22:07So that's gone. The windows don't match up. The windows downstairs with the door. Those probably are what's left.

22:17We have those beautiful windows. And when you go into the rooms behind the windows, the light that comes into that house comes from those windows.

22:28But when you go into the rest of the house, it's quite dark. It's not an all like that. The middle part of the house. And then of course, Mr. Bedford, the location and the second part of the house.

22:40So, so my issue with a lot of the way that I think this house would been viewed or looked at for some time. And the difficulty is what is old.

22:52And what is genuine? Like, where does it, where, what does it come from? What is the heritage?

22:58And it's not farming, but it's well, it's recently well, but okay, the business.

23:03But when can we actually, when you're looking at a house, what can you actually see?

23:08That was original on the house. I see 2 windows and a door.

23:14Okay.

23:16Right.

23:17That was it for me. Do you want to ask anything? Yeah, I just wanted to, but again, and I apologize for coming in late.

23:24Thank you for coming to delegate. It sounds as though you've put an incredible amount of time and resource into research of the property. And so I'm very happy to hear small fruit of that labor.

23:35Just to go back to Miranda's question, I want to drill down on that. So.

23:41Is the, the reason you're delegating today and are you.

23:48Looking for a change in the afternoon's, or are you looking to refute the designation entirely? We're at this stage because I mean, you can't do, I don't think you can even do. I don't think you'd be halfway. You can't do it.

24:02So the criteria needs to be changed.

24:05Okay. And then from the criteria, I mean, that was Mr. Mel's point was that the criteria have to be actually come from the criteria. So the criteria isn't correct. Then you have to go back to that.

24:16Okay. And then ask yourself, would that fit what, what do you have now fits into the criteria under the app? Because that depends as far as the attributes go.

24:28I see 2 winners in a door and I'm not sure what you'll do with that and how that fits in.

24:34The John Mitchell was not particularly well known or successful and unfortunately it's there's an emphasis on men in this these heritage meetings.

24:49And I just don't know where you're going with that.

24:52And they were men for the most part who had the funds, but this is kind of an unusual situation.

25:01And I think you have to look at it from the perspective of the house, what built the house, what changed the house. But then you want to look at.

25:11What are we talking about here? Are we talking about an 1847 house? Are we talking about 1920s, which is when things happened? We talked about 1950s. So I just don't know.

25:23What you're trying to do here because quite frankly, from our perspective, it shouldn't be designated the way it was in the research.

25:34That's where we're coming from. Okay. And have you shared this research with the city? I started talking to the last March.

25:43Okay. And as like every time I look at something, there's about so many.

25:49Stephen, did you want to respond? I can just see the.

25:55I wasn't trying not to be too, not to appear chomping at the bit, but I'm not sure if Alex actually is finished. I'm happy to wait till you're done.

26:04I mean, I can I can pull it off.

26:06It's construction. It's construction, right?

26:09I do have a question.

26:11I'm really pleased, Ellen, that you did delegate today to bring your your concerns and actually your opinions to the committee.

26:24And I just wanted to say off the top chair through you that as the the author of this of this report and the potential recommendation to counsel at the moment, it's simply a recommendation to heritage well for their consideration and for their comments.

26:41I'm happy to to not necessarily at the pause button, but go back into discussion with you, Helen, because I think I could learn as much from you.

26:52As you may be able to learn from me as as both as professional researcher or at least both as researchers.

26:59I wanted just to maybe clarify a few things and ask a couple questions and that's based on the 1st paragraph of the statement of significance.

27:08That's in the report.

27:10But to start off.

27:13I wanted to clarify that.

27:17The report that I've written as you've mentioned already.

27:21It relies actually quite heavily on.

27:26It's a 2008 report.

27:28Yeah, it was actually a report written by a researcher that was well known to heritage wealth committee and I'm not going to say commissioned by the heritage committee, but but it was presented to the heritage committee before I began.

27:45Here is senior heritage plan in 2009.

27:48Now, I'm not 1 just to assume that because someone submitted a report that it's all correct.

27:54But everything that I've seen, not just in in the report that was written by the reversible.

28:03For the heritage quality committee and essentially for heritage planning staff.

28:08I haven't seen anything in that initial report that I would necessarily question as far as background.

28:15I know that you are on points. Okay.

28:18We don't need to talk about it now.

28:20Yeah, and we they're definitely, I think we.

28:23Bices and we have individuals who have reasons to put forward things for biases and you know that reading.

28:32Secondary materials are 3rd turn and that's the problem is that you end up with the biases unless you can come around and find the primary resources that's the issue.

28:47I think bias is a really important consideration and I'm proud to say that heritage planning staff in our research and our writing.

28:56We've we've actually made some some gains as far as improving how we look at or expanding how we look at what what equals cultural heritage.

29:05And that not 1 of the important aspect of that is understanding and celebrating the really important role that women have played in the development of wealth.

29:15And this is no exception.

29:17I wanted to say that I think that we have a lot of issues with the heritage planning staff.

29:23This is no exception.

29:26I wanted to, I first wanted to point out that in person search, which I'm not really questioning, but also, and this is something Helen, you and I have to quote at length.

29:37And I don't think we're, we've come to any sort of understanding yet, but.

29:42We want description of this property and based on other heritage designations that we've done and that have been approved by council, the legal description and it's, it's evolution.

29:54I'm of the opinion that this is actually within.

29:59In the 1830s map of town, the township of wealth that you and I have been looking at the lot that that contains the property that we know now today is within actually lot nine.

30:12So, and I can bring in the, I can bring you the actual original.

30:20The property and it says, lots one and two.

30:25Okay, well, I'm pleased to see that you don't. I mean, this is about second primary reason you don't have that.

30:31Right, right. And I'm, as I said, I like, I like you to understand in the community understand that I'm happy to continue discussing the research that's that would go into the complete appreciation of this property.

30:43And I think that's a very valuable cultural heritage value.

30:46So, and, but also just getting back to the statement of significance, I just, and I don't want to go on too long on this because chair chair, I'd be happy to go offline for just more discussion with Ellen and then come back with with.

31:04I'll just go ahead and do it in time at heritage goals meeting.

31:07But I just want to pick up on a few things.

31:10It's, it's staff's opinion that the house was constructed sometime between 1831 and 34. And we've said that it therefore it's one of the oldest extant.

31:21Okay, we said farmhouses, but let's just say oldest or extant houses in wealth.

31:28So, guys, they didn't own, see, this is all about what 1 and 2 and they didn't want to until a certain point in time.

31:35And then there's the question of the fact that she's a witness to to to an economy, right, which is something I just, I mean, has come up recently.

31:44It's all interconnected. And I love this sort of back and forth because when you go through that, usually we all together we get to the real answer right answers.

31:54So what I'm understanding from Libby Percival's research and just myself looking at the land titles searches and results of that is that lot 9 was owned by Mr Mitchell in the early 1820.

32:09But yeah, so now I would be happy to stop referring to it as a farms.

32:18So what my question to you though Helen is in the statement of significance, it's we've stated that the house has a significant historical association with Mitchell family, 1 of wealth's earliest and most successful settler families.

32:34And it says between 1831 and 1955, 3 generations of the Mitchell family live in the house.

32:40So that's incorrect. It's Goldie's.

32:42Okay, then if your cultural heritage.

32:47And it's Irish to Goldie's when she married Goldie, she was a Mitchell she buried Goldie cemetery.

32:55And it was sold by Rod will hold the and Francis Goldie who had sons, their children of Thomas. So these are the sorts of nitpicking things, but.

33:05Let's get right right and that's what I want to try and do together is get this right because later on in the statements of significance paragraph.

33:14It says it mentions that John Mitchell married and Thompson in 1831.

33:19And usually they haven't seen the marriage certificate. So I guess you'll have it usually children follow shortly after.

33:26Well, she had 11 children and only 5, 6 and 5 to 2 out.

33:32And and Thompson Mitchell lived at the house for 82 years.

33:36Sure from the time of their marriage until 1913.

33:40Right. So I think just this in itself is pretty to me that means pretty vital to roll valid. That's true. But the house was completely changed.

33:50I'm a Goldie. So I guess I'm focusing on the house. Right. So if you focus on the house, you're asking who made this change who built this change this.

34:00So that's my perspective is through the house.

34:04May I just, I'll just finish with the idea that appreciating the family history and really the changes to the property may have come into ownership or was, was developed by different family members.

34:19Different generations and in different ways. I completely agree with that. That's often the case.

34:24Also, we can sometimes see.

34:28The real evidence of that in the house and even with new owners that aren't family. Yeah, I haven't seen we haven't seen it.

34:35Now, my last point is actually, I'm going to pose it in the form of a question or a request. I would be even happier to consider to continue discussion with you.

34:46Ellen, but maybe at the property. No, my father was old and I don't want him to start.

34:52Okay, well, I can.

34:53That's my, to be honest with you. That's 1 of the reasons I have here. I don't want my father upset anymore. He's very upset.

35:01Okay.

35:02Okay. I'm a more calm.

35:05Chartered him in there. See that done that.

35:09But he's not very upset. He's very upset.

35:13As I said, I'm happy to continue discussing this so that we can try to get to the correct information that should accompany this statement.

35:23Yes, he heard this when he did. It is too cool. And we probably going to be looking at other projects throughout the industry and that will give you.

35:29I'm particularly concerned about the legal description because if this 1, if we're not interpreting this 1 correctly, it makes me think that.

35:39Other properties we designated nearby.

35:42I might have to relook at those legal descriptions as well.

35:46Some consistency.

35:50Thank you, chair. I didn't mean to go on and on, but as I said, I'm happy to keep discussing with Ellen.

35:59Thank you.

36:00I do want to be cognizant of time because we're already just about at 1240. I do have a drafted motion for deferral, but Alex, I think you may have had another question or 2.

36:11I think we've more or less gotten to the same place.

36:16I think, again, you know, large, a lot of your time and resources have gone into this. It's been great to have this conversation here.

36:25It sounds like the positive path forward is to go back to collaborate on these attributes and look at the criteria again so that things can be done properly or sort of fine tune.

36:39So, I, yeah, I'm happy to support motion.

36:43For sure. So the motion of draft event that 108 Queen Street draft council designation report be deferred pending additional discussions between heritage staff and the property owner.

36:53Would you like to move that Alex?

36:56Yeah.

36:57And a seconder.

36:59Yeah, thank you, Miranda. All those in favor.

37:02Excellent. Thanks everybody and thank you Helen for coming in and with all that additional research and being open to those discussions.

37:12All right, so we'll move on to item 3.1, which is appointment of heritage, Guelph member to downtown heritage conservation district focus group with image in.

37:21Good morning everybody.

37:31So, I'll make this as quick as possible. So early in the downtown heritage conservation district project we established a focus group.

37:41It included 10 members with a commitment for 4 meetings across 2023 to 2025.

37:472 meetings in the study phase 2 meetings in the planning guidelines phase.

37:52We have unfortunately lost 2 members, a member of the public and 1.

37:58Our appointed member from heritage 12.

38:01So, now the planning guidelines phase is underway. I'm hoping to have a heritage 12 member appointed to step into that role for the remaining 2 meetings.

38:11They are set for the end of April and then again at the end of September.

38:17There may be some duplicate information between what heritage wealth is getting directly and what the focus group member would be getting.

38:25But I think it's still an important opportunity and important venue for conversation.

38:33Yeah, so I'm happy to send along terms of reference. If there's anybody interested in reviewing those. I am of course happy to answer any questions as well.

38:44Thank you. Excellent. Thanks. And I think Joe dad had that role previously. Yes.

38:52Is there anyone interested in taking on that role and attending the focus group in April and September?

38:59Do you have a small question?

39:05And I guess I, I, for you, chair to clerks.

39:09Because I was this going to work with.

39:13Having to reapply for membership of the committee. If we're.

39:20Asking somebody from this committee to be on that focus group, but then everybody has to reapply. Does that cause issues from a procedural standpoint?

39:30Or, you know, like, is this better done after that process? I know that.

39:36I'm just curious.

39:44Hi, Alex, this is Winnie from the fact office. Thanks for your questions. Actually, that I'll actually check and I already talk about this regarding about the process.

39:56We have applications of the membership, something like that.

39:59So actually that because we will have a meeting in April for the task force.

40:05Imagine if you just want to confirm, just let me know. And we will have may have another meeting in May. So we will leave a member from the HD to be the representative in the task force for these two months before that we could do the official appointment for the members for the

40:24so-called new heritage advisory committee. So, I would say this is a little bit time sensitive. So we would need members from HD to be a part of the task force.

40:37Thank you. Thank you.

40:42Imagine you need for that focus group in April by chance or no.

40:46We're still pulling it's either the 24th or the 28th. We're sort of split. So, I'm really hoping for April 28.

41:00And is it a full day event? Is it evening?

41:03No, it's a, sorry. Yeah, more details. It is an evening event. It should run about an hour and a half.

41:10So, a small presentation and then some some time for questions and conversation and feedback.

41:19Are there any volunteers? Kelly.

41:26Thank you.

41:28Anyone else for the motion forward?

41:33So the recommended motion is that Kelly be appointed to represent heritage club on the downtown heritage conservation district focus group. Is there someone to move that motion?

41:42Thank you, David. Seconder Miranda all in favor.

41:46Excellent. Thanks Kelly. Thank you. Imagine.

41:50Thank you Kelly. No problem.

41:54And imagine I believe we're going to stick with you right now and go into 76 water street.

41:59Great. If you can give me just a moment, I will share the report. Will we discuss.

42:26It's too much of my screen. There we go.

42:29Sorry guys.

42:34At first, my first share.

42:37Take your time.

42:39And we see the word document and let's say a photo of the property as it stands currently.

42:46Yes, we see the blue house with the for sale sign.

42:54Let me.

42:55So the big question is, do you see my notes about the property when I open them up?

43:03I can still only see the house.

43:06Oh, I see your notes though.

43:08So yes, we will see your notes. I think.

43:11Okay, well, we'll we'll skip the notes then we've received a complete heritage permit application for the property at 76 water street.

43:19It is a what we call a non heritage or a non contributing property.

43:24But it does fall within the boundaries of the Brooklyn College Hill heritage conservation district, which is why the heritage permit is in play.

43:34The photo up on the screen is how the how the property sits currently.

43:40I will throw up the the drawings as well as I talk we've had a permit application that will see an additional second story.

43:50So we've added to the building, the creation of an upper ballot balcony and lower porch, the replacement of the, the windows and door at that lower story.

44:03And then the reclating of at least the front facade, possibly the whole the whole building, but we're mostly concerned with the front facade.

44:12So in conversation with the with the proponent with the applicant.

44:19I will bring up to the upper story balcony, I will bring up that actually I think this will be helpful.

44:27Do you now see architectural drawings.

44:31You know, still seeing the house.

44:37This is more interesting anyway.

44:39There we go.

44:42Excuse me.

44:44Through conversations with the applicant.

44:48The drawings were made to the upper story doors from a glass sliding door that you would find on an apartment to this French door configuration.

44:57And also through conversation with them, it was agreed that the stone veneer that you see on the drawing to your left.

45:06The stone veneer will be kept to the foundation level and the upper stories, but the main story and the new newly designed upper story will have a vertical board and batten type type cladding rather than the stone.

45:21So I think that the opinion that it not only aligns with the HCD design guidelines, but also there's many examples and many sort of precedent setting in fill buildings and new construction in the district that are mirrored here both with the gavel roof, the below

45:41three stories, the one or two story construction, as well as that board and batten style, synthetic material.

45:49I'd be happy to answer any questions and switch back to my face and my notes.

45:57Thanks, imagine. Are there any questions regarding this property?

46:02Or comments.

46:10No, when you have maybe a quick clerical question for you, if we have no comments with the motion just be the second part of it that the proposed alterations to 76 water street abide by the guidelines for the Brooklyn and college hill heritage conservation district.

46:23Yes.

46:24Okay, perfect.

46:26So, is there someone to move just that part that second part there of the motion Alex. Thank you. Is there a seconder Miranda all those in favor.

46:39And any opposed. Oh, David, I'm guessing that was in favor.

46:44Perfect.

46:45We will move on then. So now we will go to item 3.3 and I believe we have a presentation from Andrew.

47:01Yeah.

47:03I don't have an updated presentation prepared. Basically, what I'm here for is the, the D 13 being myself and Stacy over in the corner. If you guys can't see her.

47:16We were here in February to discuss the preliminary preferred options for the maximum and Alan structures environmental assessment.

47:28Which included the replacement of the maximum bridge with the widened.

47:33North side of so take a multi's path.

47:36The construction of the word downtown bridge rehabilitation of the sluice way and spillway in the river and the removal of the islands bridge.

47:47When we were here heritage called asked.

47:52To take a month and do some research into the island's bridge.

47:57Shortly after that we did.

48:00Uncover that we had a cultural heritage.

48:04Cultural heritage report available unfortunately through.

48:09Shuffling of project managers on this project that had gotten lost along the way. So that has now been provided to.

48:15At this point.

48:20We're looking to hear.

48:23Heritage wealth take on what they what they've seen about the islands bridge.

48:30Opinions or comments on the preliminary preferred recommendation as well as confirmation of the cultural heritage report so we can have it finalized so that's currently still in draft.

48:45So, open up to the floor and I'll let Jack as there's the way.

48:54Just know quickly that Steven and I made a very brief staff report that outlined.

49:01Heritage staff's opinion on the environmental assessment and the cultural heritage.

49:06Evaluation report as well as our what our advice will be to council when this environmental assessment goes for their consideration.

49:19You're talking about the report that was added just just on Friday and on the revised agenda. Yeah. Okay. I thought it would be helpful for the committee to have that.

49:27You want to continue to say about the report.

49:30I mean, I can just provide a brief summary. I said that.

49:34We, Steven and I agree with the findings of the cultural heritage evaluation.

49:39I don't think it ever.

49:41Occurred to us that it wouldn't meet the designation criteria.

49:45But in this specific instance, I don't we've designation.

49:50Is the mechanism through which to conserve or commemorate this bridge.

49:55Given what engineering staff have told us about the requirement to.

50:01Almost fully deconstruct and have significant material replacement on any restored bridge.

50:07I will be recommending the council direct staff to salvage retain and conserve the steel railing system, which is the key architectural feature of the bridge.

50:17And as well as any salvage wall of the sub structure for functional or commemorative reuse in the vicinity of balance bridge.

50:25I'd be to answering questions and Steven and I are co-authors.

50:36So, I have a couple of questions.

50:40So, I think the last time we discussed this, which might have been too much.

50:46You told me that the reason that you were recommending removal was cost. Yes.

50:52Yeah, cost in the extent to the work effectively. Okay.

50:56And, you know, I think everyone's in agreement that Alan's bridge meets the criteria for designation. As you just said, it's going to lose weight.

51:07And in your presentation, there's a talk of a new bridge being put in a little further down at a cost that I'm sure will be millions.

51:20Yeah, it'll be some single single, but just number of millions. I don't really really say. Okay.

51:28And so, I guess for me, I think we have heritage resource that merits designation.

51:37That we're talking about removing even though it needs work, recognize that and building something far more expensive, a little further down the river.

51:46Not far at all down the river. This particular bridge, as I understand it has been.

51:51And I know the components have been replaced. I'm not even so much talking about components. We're talking about the geography here.

51:58The fact that this has been a crossing in well from our earliest days at this particular location. And it's part of a whole landscape there.

52:09With the mill and and always loose way, etc. So I guess I just when we think about rehabilitating this bridge and understanding that there will be a cost of all.

52:20The cost projected as far less than building a new bridge for pedestrians. And it's not that far away. So, so I guess for me, I can't support the idea of removing heritage resource that could be repaired and reused for the same purpose rather than building something new.

52:40And again, not so much about preserving any any part of this bridge. It's more about crossing location and the fact that that's where it's traditionally done.

52:51So that's that's my piece.

52:53If I might add or jump in on that chair.

52:58Yeah, I think reading through the.

53:02The cultural heritage evaluation report. I mean.

53:06There's, there's quite a unique landscape here that I think combines natural geography travel.

53:15The development of welfare in center and then also the industry and, you know, it's, it's a landscape that we have less and less.

53:26Physical remains remains of Goldy mill further up, which I believe is a designated.

53:33Correct. And then we have Alan's bill below, which is not it's just listening.

53:40So, the crossing here is, it's been something that even though.

53:46Like Miranda said, there's been many iterations of the bridge is remaining that spot there. So I have to agree with her that it seems.

53:57Like the better process would be to invest the money in from a proposed down town toward bridge into constructing a new bridge at that location and preserving at least that attribute, which is outlined by the the report.

54:16I think, yeah, I think my comments would be in line with that.

54:20Firstly, the preferred option would be or retaining the bridge, although even with that, I have to agree with staff and, you know, I appreciate the, the.

54:32I appreciate the, the selenaging of steel and the commemoration of at least the 1938 bridge, but I think using that spot there under the viaduct.

54:43Is is the preferred process for I guess I would ask, is there a particular reason that's, you know, the location of the proposed downtown to war bridge is further down the river, as opposed to having it cross at that spot there.

55:02Yeah, so I've got a couple of reasons for that actually.

55:07First of all, just based on city policy, the award to downtown bridge was approved back in the 2012 secondary plan so that crossing has been.

55:17On our list of targeted crossings of the river or getting close to the decade and a half now so that we're meeting that policy direction from the downtown secondary plan.

55:32There's also the more human aspects that we've had issues with people crossing the Gulf Junction railway bridge, which is unsafe for pedestrians to cross and then falling off the bridge.

55:43So there's a major safety component from from public transportation perspective where we're looking to give people protected space to cross instead of taking the railway bridge.

55:57This bridge is also supposed to connect to a future trail system that follows the GJR tracks all the way down into the future bulk innovation district lands connecting downtown through the ward all the way down to this need development area.

56:11So that's a key piece of our future transportation network and that's one of our main off road transportation for doors for cyclists and pedestrian in the future.

56:24So those are sort of the main reasons why the word to downtown bridge in the new location is getting a bit of priority there.

56:35So the existing location of the bridge.

56:40Do recognize that it has values being old.

56:44One original crossings.

56:47But do rebuild the entire bridge, which in in the analysis sort of.

56:59We're returning this whole heritage value aspect and really in this discussion, yes, the crossing is also an important consideration of the bridge specifically when we analyze that.

57:11But furthermore to replacing that within the supports of the railway bridge up above.

57:20It is likely that this does become significantly more complicated than it appears to be on paper the consultant could provided.

57:29Sort of the costing of the bridge replacements be a direct replacement of the parts of the bridge as opposed to how it has to be facilitated with getting approval from the trillings and see and rail and working around those appointments which brings a huge amount of risk to the city.

57:46If anything was to go wrong during construction.

57:49So those are sort of my top reasons for the way that we've.

57:55The way we presented the preferred options.

58:00And that was, there was a big push of the consultant to go for the commemoration piece as well, which they had successfully done in St. Catherine's.

58:12And believed it would satisfy all of the bridge heritage aspects.

58:19Again, not really taking into account the crossing location.

58:25I just like to note.

58:28So, we're not sure the original bridge was in this precise location we know that after 1856 when the Grand Trail Railway was built, it was put beneath the viaduct.

58:40And what I think is, even in my view is that so this is a bit the fifth of six bridges that have been built to facilitate this crossing and I agree with you it is the crossing more than any materiality of the bridge that is.

58:55And that's why I think like the intention to make a mixed use back to know street crossing satisfies.

59:04A historic crossing in this approximate location.

59:09And like, I'm hopeful that.

59:13Staff's recommendation to counsel to salvage because so mechanistically the point of designation is to be able to compel property owners to do certain things with your property.

59:25In this case, counsel is the property owner.

59:28So the mechanism that designation would be fulfilling.

59:33I think, and just be met through direct.

59:38Instruction from counsel.

59:41So, I'm just saying that if you'd like to.

59:44Like, build on staff's recommendation, like if you think that designation also is not necessarily the only mechanism here.

59:52Like, there's lots of flexibility in the advice that we can be given to counseling.

59:57And something I realized that I should have added to the recommendation that I put in my staff report is that I think the heritage committee should be consulted.

1:00:05Whether this is designated or not on how those materials are salvaged and reused in whatever.

1:00:12Whatever way to reimagine for incorporation.

1:00:16So I would add that to my recommendation.

1:00:20Right.

1:00:27If I made sure I'm okay, I'll start. I want to address Jack's comments and then we'll be back.

1:00:33So, I can appreciate the.

1:00:47Saying that, you know, Eric should be, you should be involved with those discussions. I guess.

1:00:53From a process standpoint, though, is it.

1:00:57Not true though that designation formalizes that relationship of walking through.

1:01:04If there's alterations to the site.

1:01:07I went through those conversations of like, how is it going to change? I recognize as the city council provides that direction that is the owner here. So.

1:01:16The collaboration is more internal than it is external, but.

1:01:21It could be not going to the same versus that we do with all property owners as far as going through.

1:01:27Just checks analysis. I.

1:01:30Again, back to the location here.

1:01:37Being the key thing, I think.

1:01:40It's just like we're, you know, if you go, we're looking back at those maps to 1856 that connection point is the key, you know.

1:01:51I think that kind of stays through, even though the bridges have changed.

1:01:56It were changing that.

1:01:58Have a travel like we've, it's kind of like back to when they closed off.

1:02:06Extra made it.

1:02:07That's that's a that's quite a major change to the original layer of wealth. So I think it's.

1:02:1215 or 20 meter difference.

1:02:16With.

1:02:18Like, I guess, how do we ensure that the, the, the value of that process in this scenario, which is bridges for me and it's now, but how is that.

1:02:28How's that served outside of commemorations? I think from commemorations.

1:02:34It only conveys that value.

1:02:39When somebody looks at the commemorative plaque or the story versus having that physical resource there and travel each day.

1:02:48You know, you know, you renew that kind of link to the past each and every day that somebody uses it. So that's a little bit philosophical, but.

1:02:56I guess, if I could go back to some of the other points.

1:03:03So what is the status for the downtown word is I thought it was canceled by council.

1:03:11So is it still we're saying now it's still in target of.

1:03:15So downtown secondary plan. Yeah, yeah, it remains a target with downtown secondary time there have been a previous project done to.

1:03:24To implement the word to downtown bridge.

1:03:27Or so they were on pursuing circumstances with the heritage building.

1:03:32The, the Sleeman or the spring of the stiller is currently housed in and they weren't able to build the abundance that they needed to do.

1:03:39Ultimately, the amount of redesign work was going to make the contract not viable as it was. They canceled that one and rolled it into this study to confirm again.

1:03:50How we could go about doing that.

1:03:52And that's where we've had our engineering consultant going through approaching the design from a different angle.

1:04:00They come up with a design that works. So that's where it's being re recommended that yes, this is a viable bridge. We can do it.

1:04:10We're not going to impact the heritage structure on the far side of the river with the new design that come up with. So that's where it's so repeated. I had to go ahead.

1:04:20And I believe I asked this previously, but just.

1:04:24If we can go through again. And I recognize that there aren't maybe.

1:04:29Definitely plans or architectural drawings and what is the impact.

1:04:35What is the expected impact to the balance meal ruins? That's quite closer to the proposed.

1:04:43Right.

1:04:45The intention is to avoid those rooms entirely. Can you share the location? I don't know if I can get a good site of it.

1:04:53Essentially where the where the golf junction railway.

1:04:58Bridge begins from the west side of the river. It's up on a fairly large raised platform and there is space on that platform for the bridge to land there.

1:05:09So then you've got the asphalt path between the bridge and the rooms to give us a separation to avoid.

1:05:16That's to the to the room setting other contacts. My people that we are working towards reconstruction and to our bridge to so there's room for the 2 projects to work together.

1:05:30Sorry, GGR golf junction railway bridge. No, the metal. Okay. And as part of that, is that how.

1:05:38You're addressing the safety rules for pedestrians or I guess I'm just.

1:05:43If you could walk me through.

1:05:46I'm all downtown to work, rich.

1:05:50Handles the safety aspect because it is important.

1:05:53Versus you know, say that.

1:05:57Rehabilitating the bridge under the viaduct.

1:06:00Just.

1:06:01I can go through my mind that area walk by on the way here, but.

1:06:05Yeah, so over the tracks.

1:06:09Thank you. So this is, you can see up on the screen, but the 2 bridges are basically going to be.

1:06:1690 degrees are pretty close to a right angle to each other the railway bridges. The 1 running east west.

1:06:23And runs right up along the spring, though the still area and the far side of the river.

1:06:29Around bridges under the metro links, really rich. So right now there's if you were approaching that location and you wanted to go to spring mill, or you wanted to go somewhere on earth or street.

1:06:40When you're standing at the corner of Max and Ellen will which it looks like you've got a very straight shot across that short railway bridge to get to where you want to go.

1:06:50Rather than having to walk all the way.

1:06:52Around through the max now and are there a little bit intersection and then finding your way through the neighborhood that way.

1:07:01So, basically.

1:07:04The way that people function is they're going to take the shortest route from.

1:07:08Point point B. So our goal here is to put the pedestrian bridge right alongside.

1:07:15That both junction railway bridge and provide people with a safe.

1:07:20Halfway across.

1:07:22If they're given the 2 options of a safe 1 and an unsafe 1, they're probably going to take the safe 1.

1:07:28So that addresses the safety issues of people crossing on the both junction railway bridge.

1:07:34Unfortunately with that.

1:07:36You know, we looked at other options of how to just protect the bridge from people getting onto it and with the frequency of trains coming through here and the complexity of active.

1:07:47Safety measures that it just isn't really.

1:07:51He's able to be the safety measure we take to prevent people from getting on the bridge.

1:07:57And for clarification, it's labeled as a CPR rail bridge on here. That's the goal of general average. Yeah, it's not a grave.

1:08:05It was it was the same year. Okay.

1:08:10I'm a quarter.

1:08:12I'm through you chair if I may have a good question for.

1:08:19I think staff.

1:08:24Who owns the my duck? Is that the railway company?

1:08:29Is there is there any sort of protection on that?

1:08:40The stone peers and.

1:08:44Because Metro links is an agency of the province of Ontario.

1:08:49Even if the city wanted to designate the viaduct under the heritage act, the heritage act doesn't.

1:08:56Doesn't apply for agents, agencies of the bronze.

1:09:01So.

1:09:03It's it's not designated under the heritage act currently.

1:09:07Sorry, I'm just running through blocks in my head here. Is there.

1:09:23The tablet that marks the spot.

1:09:25The founding of the wealth is there any sort of protections that the city has regarding that when it comes to.

1:09:32Around like cities.

1:09:34Infrastructure, I don't believe that the tablet.

1:09:40I think it's referred to the stone tablet. I don't think it's actually protected by a municipal bottom.

1:09:48I believe it actually is my son's. I believe it is. It is my and that tablet is carved or it was inserted toward is part of the sort of Southwest.

1:10:03The main about that so it's actually on.

1:10:08Metro links property chair app. If you don't mind, I've got to just like to make a comment or.

1:10:21And it's in regards to the Alan's bridge and really my comment is.

1:10:26Kind of directed toward Andrew in the discussions that I was involved with with the EA. There was a lot of discussion about how the Alan's bridge because it's within or underneath the.

1:10:41The rail viaduct.

1:10:43It doesn't actually line up directly with Macdonald street.

1:10:49And even though historically it's cars or people would travel over that Alan's bridge, whichever bridge it was.

1:10:57They would have had to make a turn basically or swerve to the right to get under the bridge to get over. Sorry, get under the viaduct to get over the bridge.

1:11:09So, it's not I'm not a traffic engineer or and I don't want to talk about something that I'm not.

1:11:17Subject expert in, but I wonder Andrew if you could comment on that and.

1:11:21You know, the usability of such a bridge that's not within essentially the rate of way of Macdonald street.

1:11:32I just maybe to ask for clarification, the question you're just asking if it's like reasonable to be using the bridge. Yeah, yeah, I think that's kind of the question that I was raising.

1:11:44In the discussions that it's clear that the Alan's bridge that Sarah today from 1938 has cultural heritage value.

1:11:52But in order to to invest in.

1:11:57Retaining it in order to reuse it.

1:12:00It's my understanding that it would be difficult to reuse even as pedestrian crossing.

1:12:08So, yeah, that has been another aspect of the discussion here was, if we were to use it as a pedestrian or general act of transportation, which is how to tie it into.

1:12:19The intersections on either side, because most of those intersections need to basically be fully redesigned when we do this work.

1:12:26I'm carrying non stop calls for the Arthur and action now an infection to be revised because it's currently.

1:12:35Not optimal or any use.

1:12:41So, a lot of time did go into how we could how we could integrate it and it does create a challenging situation in that location.

1:12:51Which is part of what led to us looking at putting a multi on the north side of the night.

1:12:58Street bridge because getting people across that bridge.

1:13:03If they're heading eastward and then they're wanting to Arthur Street, we have to get them across.

1:13:11This slip lane and then through the intersection and then.

1:13:16Into the Arthur Street area, which is really challenging because with the peers in the places that they are.

1:13:24And the need for this to this intersection so to trust me down that slip lane.

1:13:29There's not a lot of real estate around the bridge peers to be able to get proper crossings there. So, it does also have a bit of a sub optimal.

1:13:39Way for people to get at least into the intersection on that side on this side. Similarly, we do need to get them.

1:13:48Round the intersection in various ways, which we're likely going to.

1:13:52Here anyway with the with the downtown trail.

1:13:55Right there, there's going to be some integration with that we did hear comments from well junction railway that the analysis bridge is in a tough sight line for them.

1:14:05So, as they're coming around that curve on the bridge, they work tough. I'm seeing people around here. So they have some safety concern in there, which.

1:14:13Would also complicate.

1:14:16The egress from the bridge, but it's not.

1:14:22That's not the end of the world, but it is not as optimal as it could be.

1:14:28We're even to be a bit more straight towards Elizabeth street. It's just really a tight spot with not a lot of right of way around it to.

1:14:38To make the connections into the surrounding network.

1:14:42That's your question. So, yeah, thanks.

1:14:59Are there other comments or questions from anyone?

1:15:03And everyone's super tiny on my screen right now, but just noting that I think when you will have someone share screen just to capture the couple.

1:15:12Comments for the motion.

1:15:14So the recommended motion right now, based on comments. Thank you. Any.

1:15:26Or whoever sharing screen sorry is that the following comments by heritage, 12 members be provided to staff and council for their consideration.

1:15:33The bridges worthy of heritage designation and could be rebuilt in lieu of a new bridge at a different place in the river.

1:15:39The geographic location of the existing bridge is the most important aspect given the long history of this site as a point of crossing.

1:15:46Are there other comments in particular that folks want captured as part of that motion?

1:15:57The chair.

1:16:00If I may chair.

1:16:03Yeah, I think I just I'm hearing through this conversation.

1:16:08Incredible could service that city has to balance.

1:16:13I can't help but feeling that this is.

1:16:19I meant, so on the heritage front.

1:16:25Don't know.

1:16:29I don't know if I can play as a member of this committee feel.

1:16:33Supportive of the idea we're moving in.

1:16:36Just looking at it through the heritage lens.

1:16:39If there's yeah, I, I, I don't.

1:16:49I would like to propose an.

1:16:54Addition on the motion.

1:16:56Here this plan, do you think it is relevant to this conversation?

1:17:03I'd actually like to see.

1:17:06How smell ruins being considered for designation.

1:17:11I think if there is going to be a downtown to word.

1:17:15Bridge that and I still do take.

1:17:20Jack's comments that you advocate for her to scroll to be a part of that conversation. And I.

1:17:24Before that, but I think if we're talking about.

1:17:29You know, losing.

1:17:31The significant heritage.

1:17:35Structure, people should also be getting some more protections on another.

1:17:42Incredible property.

1:17:45So I would like to have that as a recommendation council.

1:17:49Then they pursue part 4 designation for.

1:17:54How ins, though, ruins since it is part of the.

1:18:01So scope that was looked at.

1:18:10See when he's just getting notes in there.

1:18:25I think when he that the, that 1 that you're on right now about the heritage value, I think that could probably go in the original motion. And if it's appropriate.

1:18:33Maybe a separate motion on the Allen smell ruins.

1:18:37And I look for you to you for sure for what the right process is.

1:18:43I'm sorry, I'm checking time to undo this. Maybe I can do this.

1:18:54And how about this?

1:18:58Oh, sorry.

1:19:04Do you think it's a good way to to.

1:19:08Outline what you guys want to propose.

1:19:17So I think and I'll look to.

1:19:24Sorry, a little bit delay for the update.

1:19:32It's not jury actually that there should be some new recommended motions.

1:19:40For item 3.3 that I just.

1:19:44It's not am I able to share my screen because I have it too. If that's helpful. Perfect. Thank you. I'm sorry for the delay. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. Let me just, I have a whole bunch of like big comments that people are making that I just crossed out. So I'm going to remove all of those.

1:20:08Just so that it doesn't make it more complicated.

1:20:12Okay.

1:20:15Let me share screen and to image and comments before I've never shared screen on this platform either. So it might be an adventure for me too. Okay. So hopefully the word document is what everyone is seeing.

1:20:38So, for the 1st part of the motion, and this is just based on comments that were captured, it would be that the following comments piece and then that heritage qualifies recommends.

1:20:48And I didn't edit my comments. Sorry about that recommends.

1:20:54Preserving and retaining the bridge instead of building.

1:21:00A new bridge, which would have been sort of the original 1, the geographic location of the existing bridge is the most important aspect given the long history of this site as a point of crossing.

1:21:10And then to Alex's most recent comments based on the heritage based on heritage value, the committee is not in support of the bridge being removed.

1:21:19And then my suggestion is that a separate motion before the Allen's mill ruins if that's okay with folks.

1:21:29If I may just say, in the comments for.

1:21:36The original motion would like to see a line about.

1:21:45Wanting to heritage wealth committee.

1:21:48Would like to see.

1:21:51Future bridges like downtown toward.

1:22:00I'm trying to say with this. No, we're going to. I'm not going to get this in the fly.

1:22:07All right, you can confirm any, any future designs for the.

1:22:16Or to depth down, which is it requires review by heritage wealth already because it's adjacent to protected heritage property.

1:22:24Being the spring mill, the spring mill. Okay, but yeah, please.

1:22:29It has been reviewed before by heritage 12, like previous.

1:22:34Right, right. Okay.

1:22:37So we don't need that to be a comment because anything that would happen would come to us, right, Stephen?

1:22:41Correct. Okay.

1:22:46So, based on just the 3 bullets then, and I can't see anyone at this point. So I hope someone, if they are willing to move that would say who's moving it.

1:22:55Oh, good. David and I have a random.

1:23:06So, David's moving and Alex is 2nding. Sure. Okay. Then all those in favor.

1:23:12And maybe I'll ask if anyone's opposed if they can say they're opposed again, because I can't see anything right now.

1:23:18So, hearing nothing.

1:23:23So then an additional motion then that part for designation be pursued for the Allen's mill ruins.

1:23:34Alex's this was your motion. Would you like to move it?

1:23:39Yes. Yeah. Okay. And someone to 2nd thought.

1:23:43I'll do it. Thank you, Miranda. And then all those in favor.

1:23:48And I'll ask if anyone is opposed and I will stop sharing.

1:23:55Kelly, were you opposed? No. Okay. You came on my screen right when I stopped sharing and asked to propose. I just wanted to make sure. Perfect.

1:24:03No, there was a delay there. I was in favor. Anyway, it's all good.

1:24:07Thank you. All right. Just 1 tiny thing. And I apologize if this appears corrective, but the name is Alan with 2 a's not a and.

1:24:21I love the corrections. I edit things all day. Okay. Never offend me.

1:24:28Reading major research papers and theses right now. So it's all about editing.

1:24:36Yeah. All right. So we're going to move on to item 3.4. I'm going to excuse myself in the meeting now and pass it over to Kim. So thanks everyone and enjoy the rest of the week.

1:24:46Thanks Kim. Thanks Sarah.

1:24:49Okay, so we're going to item 3.4 on today's agenda, which is the evaluation of campus properties for part 4 designation.

1:24:58Which was deferred from the February 6 meeting.

1:25:01So we'll start with a presentation from Alex.

1:25:07Thank you chair. I'll keep this brief. This.

1:25:16What's before the committee here today is come out of a couple conversations that have happened.

1:25:24Between myself and staff and and really the impetus behind it is.

1:25:31The board of governor the university board of governors meeting minutes from.

1:25:35January this year that.

1:25:39Sort of highlight that unfortunately the physical properties are in the greatest of shape and it's a hard time for the university as they're they're plodding forward with.

1:25:53You know, figuring out what to do out of that I just compiled based on their own.

1:26:00You know, evaluation and.

1:26:04There's about 20 buildings that are currently listed on the register.

1:26:10Um, for heritage properties that are deemed in critical condition by the university of Guelph.

1:26:15And a further 10 that are listed at.

1:26:18So 30 buildings that are in critical condition that are currently listed on the register.

1:26:24This is also, you know, tied in with the fact that.

1:26:31We are imminently going to lose the register and so there's a push to.

1:26:37Valuate buildings within the city of Guelph that both merit.

1:26:42Designation because they have high cultural.

1:26:46Physical physical value to the city and.

1:26:51So, I feel that with what we're seeing through this report that both of those are met.

1:27:01Independently, I've prepared for this committee.

1:27:05You know, I took those buildings that were both critical and poor condition and started.

1:27:12Doing a very cursory look at what criteria they may.

1:27:17Maybe consider they line up.

1:27:21This is of course, the direction that staff have asked us to do to help qualify.

1:27:27Recommended properties that we bring forward.

1:27:31They aren't meant to be written in stone and.

1:27:38You know, I would say that if.

1:27:40Part 4 destination process is important for any of these properties, of course, it would be.

1:27:45Staff doing the hard research to either confirm or deny whether those criteria.

1:27:53Are applicable. I.

1:27:57Have looked at 6 buildings, I think they are a collection of buildings that.

1:28:03Look at different stages of development for the University of Guelph.

1:28:08Campus and speak to the Ontario cultural.

1:28:11College history on site there all the way up to more modern.

1:28:16In particular, the center, which is 1 of the 6.

1:28:22This was quite a treat to get into because that.

1:28:26Shares the same architectural designer as the Ontario.

1:28:30Science Ontario place.

1:28:35And the Canadian War Memorial in Ottawa.

1:28:39So it's quite a unique piece of architecture that the city has within its.

1:28:45Staff has asked that because of the nature.

1:28:52Past relationships with the University of Guelph.

1:28:55And it's sort of on the back end of what.

1:28:58You know, we were trying to plot a path forward with the conservatory that.

1:29:03Any direction towards working with the University and developing destinations.

1:29:10For these properties should be gone through with council. So that's why this is motions worded in the way it is.

1:29:19And again, 6 was just the number I landed on.

1:29:23I've tried to include since.

1:29:27Previous deferrals, I've tried to include other buildings that I've looked at.

1:29:30If this committee feels they want to do less or more than 6.

1:29:36That is, I hand that over to committee to deliberate on.

1:29:40I'm not sure, you know, I mean, ideally, I think it would be great to see all these buildings evaluated.

1:29:48I'm not sure what what holds out in the future for these properties once they fall off the register.

1:29:56I mean, the only reason I think we even had a conversation about the conservatory is because it was a listed structure.

1:30:01If the university decides to.

1:30:06Your major changes to other buildings that are no longer on the register.

1:30:10My understanding is that there would be no.

1:30:13Real oversight from heritage perspective, I will let staff comment on that.

1:30:18So, I'll leave in there. How many questions.

1:30:22Committee members may have. Thank you, Alex. Do any committee members have any questions at this time?

1:30:31Okay, I am not seeing any hands.

1:30:37So, I'm just going to read out the proposed motion that we have here for item 3.4.

1:30:43The heritage wealth recommends council direct heritage staff to initiate part 4 designations for 45 Trent Lane.

1:30:51Johnston Hall 476 Gordon Street, JD, McDonald building 99 Trent Lane, day hall.

1:31:00250 Arboretum Road, the OAC Centennial Arboretum Center.

1:31:06390 Gordon Street, War Memorial Hall and 480 Gordon Street.

1:31:12Nick Lawton bill. Lawton bill library.

1:31:17Sorry, that was hard to come out today.

1:31:22Are there any questions about that proposed motion? Okay, if we have a mover. Oh, Miranda, is that a question? Or is that you moving the motion?

1:31:33Okay, so Miranda, thanks for moving. Do you have a seconder?

1:31:39Okay, I saw David's hand first and all in favor.

1:31:45Okay, thank you. That's been carried. So now, I believe there are no chair announcements for today. So, we can move on to German of the meeting.

1:31:58Unless Steven, you have an announcement.

1:32:01If I, if I may chair, just a quick announcement that the chair reformatory heritage conservation district draft plan project.

1:32:12We'll be having a public open house and I'll send this to the committee members in an email. So to give you the details, but.

1:32:20That public open house will be held on Thursday, May the 8th.

1:32:24Between 430 and 630 and we'll we'll be holding it again at the Gwelfley, Jen property with any tall a.

1:32:33So, as I said, I'll send out some information regarding that.

1:32:38Okay, I'll just note that.

1:32:41Next Tuesday, April 8th.

1:32:46Staff are bringing 9 notices of intention to designate to counsel.

1:32:52We're also wrapping up the heritage district study for the word West.

1:32:57And that will be going to counsel that they're made 13th.

1:33:02Okay, that's it for me. Okay. Thanks, Jack. Thanks, Steven.

1:33:08Winnie. Thank you for the chair. I would like to say that I am representing the class office to invite and encourage you guys to.

1:33:19We apply to the advisory committees. Of course, he rotation advisory committees and also maybe artists. You know, so if you have any questions regarding recruitment or application things, you can just come to me. I mean, I mean, email me or ask me questions.

1:33:36Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.

1:33:42Do any members have any questions for winning regarding that item?

1:33:47No. Okay. So then we'll move on to adjournment for today. So, may I please have a member move adjournment?

1:33:55So Alex, a hand and second Miranda. Thank you all in favor.

1:34:00Okay. Thanks everyone. Thank you.

1:34:04So, it's been carried the next heritage golf meeting will be hosted on May 1st, 2025.

1:34:10At 12 PM. Thanks everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everyone.

1:34:16I can't, I can't wait. Hi.