Council Orientation and Education Workshop

1:36Hello everyone, it's Wednesday July 19th, 2023.

1:40It is just after five o'clock and it is our Council orientation and education workshop

1:45meeting specific to development charges 101 workshop.

1:51And with that, I will officially call the meeting to order and we will start please

1:56by recognizing our national anthem.

2:00Please stand if you're able.

3:25Thank you and as we continue with a moment of silent reflection, please.

3:43Thank you everyone as we gather, we're reminded that Guelph is situated on treaty land that

3:47is steeped in rich indigenous history and home to many First Nations Inuit Métis people

3:52today.

3:53As a city, we have a responsibility for the stewardship of the land in which we both

3:57live and work and today we acknowledge the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation of

4:02the Initiative Act peoples on whose traditional territory we are meeting.

4:08Is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof for the workshop

4:12in front of us?

4:13I clerked so I just don't have anybody on the screen.

4:19There we go.

4:20Thank you.

4:21Okay, I don't see anyone or hear anything.

4:24And as I said off the top, we have our workshop now which is the development charges 101 workshop.

4:32I did get formal regrets not just for this meeting but for the second one as well from

4:36Councillor Gibson.

4:39With that, welcome.

4:42And I'm going to turn it over to Tara Baker, our general manager for finance and treasurer

4:48here at the City of Guelph to walk not only us but the public through this workshop because

4:55it's actually a very important topic to try to get our head around especially with a lot

5:02of changes that have occurred over the last year or so.

5:06Tara, to you and staff, thank you very much and I'll turn it over to you.

5:12Great.

5:13So thanks everyone.

5:15The City of Guelph is in the process of updating its development charge bylaw.

5:19The current bylaw will expire on March 2nd, 2024.

5:24Development charges help fund the capital cost to accommodate growth.

5:28The City must complete a development charge background study and adopt a new bylaw to

5:32continue to collect development charges beyond that expiry date.

5:37Kevin Juraskiewicz is our senior corporate analyst managing the development charge background

5:43study and will be guiding you through the workshop today.

5:46The goal of the education session here is to provide a better understanding of what DCS

5:51are, how they're regulated, how the rates are determined, and the relationship to other

5:56planning and budgeting processes.

5:58Later tonight you'll also then receive a presentation about the draft study from Mr. Gary Scanlon

6:04of Watson & Associates, our development charge consultant.

6:09This work is important to our long-term financial stability as an organization and to meet the

6:14city building goals and Council's updated strategic plan to be adopted later this month.

6:19You heard last week at the housing workshop about the many activities underway to get

6:24more housing built.

6:25Development charges are a crucial part of that equation as the largest source of funding

6:30for growth capital infrastructure.

6:32Before development can occur, we need water pipes, sewers, roads to be built.

6:37Once the new population arrives, we then need to provide emergency services, waste diversion,

6:42row maintenance, parks, and recreation, for example.

6:46The cost of building the infrastructure to provide these services does not go down to

6:49match the decreases in development charges that we've been experiencing through Bill 23.

6:55This will become evident through the workshop and the special Council presentations tonight.

7:00Every dollar in the DC capital program has a job.

7:03Exemptions, discounts, and new rate phasins represent revenue loss and have to be funded

7:08somehow in another way.

7:11As development charge collections decrease with changing legislation, while at the same

7:15time pressure to enable growth to meet housing needs of our growing community increases,

7:19there'll be some difficult decisions before before Council this fall as part of the budget.

7:25More tax and rate dollars will be required to build growth capital infrastructure and these

7:29projects are competing with projects that are needed to continue to replace their assets

7:35that are at the end of their useful life.

7:39The cost of building all capital infrastructure has increased significantly over the past

7:42couple of years.

7:44Just because of inflation, the non-residential construction price index has been

7:49increasing over the past two years by a total of about 20.6%.

7:54The DC background study, the rates in the study have actually been increasing at NRCPI,

8:02their index that's part of our policy.

8:04So the rates have been increasing at that rate for the last couple of years.

8:11So then my final thing that I would just say is that the DC background study is not a budget.

8:15It is a revenue generation tool designed to calculate development charge rates needed to

8:20collect the maximum amount possible under the DC Act from new development towards the cost

8:26of growth infrastructure.

8:27So we will get into a capital budget conversation later this fall, but I just really want to kind

8:33of reiterate the purpose of this study is about what we can charge from a revenue perspective.

8:41And that really facilitates then and it rolls into our budget.

8:46So with that, I'll invite Kevin to come on up and present the workshop content.

8:53Thank you.

9:02Thank you.

9:03Through you, Mr. Mayor, we have an exciting agenda for you this evening.

9:09This presentation will provide you a better understanding of one of the city's biggest

9:15growth related revenue tool.

9:18We will start off with the development charge fundamentals.

9:24Then we will go into different topics, which include the growth forecast,

9:27the historic service level, funding envelope, the capital program, and funding projects,

9:34determining rates, the development charge reserve and reserve funds,

9:38and development charge exemptions.

9:40And we'll finish off with a strategic overview to help...

9:47Oh, yes, I need to move to this slide.

9:51We'll finish off with a strategic overview to put everything into context for the special

9:56council meeting later this evening.

10:01And what a better way to learn about the development charges acting going through the

10:04development charges act section by section starting with section two, subsection one.

10:10It reads,

10:12The council of a municipality may by bylaw impose development charges against land to

10:18pay for increased capital costs required because of the increased needs for services

10:23arising from development of the area to which the bylaw applies.

10:27Oh, wow, great.

10:34What this section essentially says is communities need new infrastructure to support

10:40new residents and new employment.

10:42And municipalities may collect development charges to build that infrastructure.

10:47You know, maybe it's not the best idea to go section by section.

10:50Let's instead bring out a video and watch that.

10:54Development charges can be a very complicated and sensitive topic.

11:27So let me start by telling you how development charges are defined.

11:31Development charges are a fee charged by the municipality for the recovery of

11:35capital related growth costs.

11:37Capital related growth costs include costs to build new infrastructure needed for new growth,

11:42to pay down existing debt for past growth works and to reduce the impact for taxpayers

11:47for growth related costs.

11:48Development charges do not pay for operating costs or renewal of assets that already exist.

11:54That's paid for by property taxes.

11:56Development charges must be paid when a building permit is issued for most new buildings.

12:02Development charges are charged for the recovery of the bylaw.

12:06Development charges are charged for new buildings, expanded buildings and converted

12:10buildings and are split into different classifications.

12:13Let's look at a hypothetical example of a subdivision development and development

12:18charges in action.

12:20In order for this area to undergo development, it will need a storm water management pond,

12:25major water mains, sanitary sewers and sewer pipes and an expansion to a major arterial road.

12:32With these services available from the city, the developer of the land can undertake the

12:36planning needed to lay out street patterns, lot locations and other servicing needs.

12:41Once the servicing and planning is in place, building of new homes or commercial enterprises

12:46can begin.

12:47New developments may require other services such as a new park and community center.

12:52These amenities would be partially funded by development charges.

12:56All municipalities in Ontario must follow the Development Charges Act,

13:00which outlines rules municipalities must follow for setting a development charge rate.

13:06It's now time to look at how development charge rates are calculated, which can be complicated.

13:11The main purpose of development charge calculations are recovering the costs

13:15related to growth from those who are driving city growth.

13:18In simple terms, the rate is calculated as follows.

13:22The total dollar value of major growth related projects,

13:25divided by the projected growth in the city, both residential units and non-residential floor

13:30space.

13:32Okay, let's recap what we have learned.

13:341. Development charges are fees collected by a municipality for the recovery of growth-related

13:39capital costs.

13:412. Development charges are governed by the province of Ontario under the Development

13:45Charges Act.

13:473. Development charges only cover capital costs of growth-related services,

13:52which have been identified as part of a Development Charge Background Study.

13:564. Development charges are paid by those who construct new buildings, expand buildings,

14:02or convert buildings to a different use.

14:045. Development charge rates are based on the formula of total cost of major growth projects

14:10divided by projected total growth, both residential and non-residential, planned in the city.

14:16And that explains how your city uses development charges to pay for growth.

14:20There we go. So that's a great overview of everything that's related to development charges.

14:34Now we can just go and dive in and dig deeper into those topics.

14:38So the first thing that you should understand is that development charges are a legislated

14:44growth revenue tool.

14:45This is how we calculate the charge is dictated by the province and we execute that.

14:52The other two major growth funding tools are the community benefit charges and the parkland

14:56dedication charges or contributions.

15:00In order to collect development charges, municipalities must complete a detailed

15:05background study to establish the rate.

15:08There must be a mandatory public meeting to discuss the study in corresponding bylaw,

15:13and the bylaw must be adopted to collect those rates.

15:18The city is going above and beyond its legislative requirements by releasing an early draft of the

15:23Development Charge Background Study three months before the mandatory public meeting.

15:29The act outlines eligible services, eligible costs, and mandatory exemptions and discounts

15:35that limit how much DC's municipalities can collect.

15:40The next few slides will dive into this topic a little more.

15:52So here's a list of the relevant DC eligible services.

15:56There are 14 eligible services that can be funded through development charges that apply for the city.

16:04Housing services and parking were both recently removed from the list of eligible services,

16:10meaning we cannot collect DC's for this.

16:13The city recently collected development charges for parking, but it is no longer able to.

16:19The city was exploring adding housing services for this update,

16:23but the conversation stopped once the service was made ineligible by the province.

16:31As mentioned in the video, developers are responsible for the services when they are local.

16:38This cost is not funded through development charges.

16:41These capital costs are 100% covered by the developers.

16:45However, ownership is eventually transferred to the city to maintain, repair, and replace.

16:53Local services are things like roads within a subdivision.

17:01Yeah. So then we can talk about the eligible costs.

17:09Not all growth-related costs are eligible for development charge funding.

17:15The first two exclusions from DC's are self-explanatory.

17:20DC's fund capital costs related to growth.

17:25Capital costs are what it costs to build infrastructure.

17:30Operating costs are the costs to maintain and repair assets,

17:34and therefore are not DC eligible.

17:38Infrastructure renewal is taking care of and replacing the assets we already own,

17:43not growth-related, and therefore not DC eligible.

17:49The development charges act also has other specific cost exemptions and can get very specific.

17:57Growth studies rolling stock with a useful life less than seven years.

18:02Those are cars with a useful life in seven years.

18:05And computer costs are not DC eligible.

18:14Lastly, the development charges act has legislated exemptions that are mandatory for the city to have.

18:20The city has also opted in to have additional optional exemptions listed at the bottom of this list.

18:27These exemptions reduce the amount of development charges the city can collect overall.

18:33Exemptions will be revisited later in this workshop.

18:39So to put all those previous slides together, this is a stacked Venn diagram that shows

18:44development charges cannot fund all growth-related costs.

18:48The biggest circle here shows all growth capital costs.

18:54But we can't collect all of that because not all services are eligible for DC funding.

18:59Parking, for example.

19:00So we move to the smaller circle of the DC eligible services.

19:05But we can't collect all of that because not all costs are eligible for DC funding,

19:15like growth studies, for example.

19:17We move to the smaller circle of the DC eligible costs.

19:21But we can't collect all of that because there are mandated and optional exemptions and discounts.

19:28So we move to the smaller circle of collectible development charges.

19:33We start off with a big capital program and move down with what can be funded by DCs through

19:39mandatory exemptions and cost eliminations and things like that.

19:52As mentioned previously, the city must complete a background study to collect development charges.

19:58The key elements are the growth forecast, historic service levels,

20:03funding envelopes, the capital program, capital funding, and reserves.

20:08In addition to this, this workshop will cover exemptions and finish off with a strategic overview.

20:19Getting the development charge background study to where it is today

20:23required the involvement and support of many departments across the city.

20:28Finances the lead coordinating the project and the finance analysts are working

20:32with the data to feed into our budget process.

20:36The service departments are providing information on the assets we have

20:41and are assembling the projects for the development charge capital program.

20:46The support departments are providing much needed data like growth data and cost data.

20:53They're also helping us engage the community to get everyone involved in this important conversation.

21:00Finally, we have our consultants who help us understand the very complicated intricacies

21:05of the development charges act to put together the early draft development charge background study.

21:12Gary Scanlon will be presenting the progress we have made at the special council meeting this evening.

21:24With the fundamentals covered off, let's dive into the growth forecast, how the growth forecast is

21:28put together. The growth forecast is established by looking at the historical development activity

21:37and developable land. With that, we estimate how many units of each type will be built,

21:43like single-touch units, townhouses, apartments, etc. over a given time period.

21:49We also look at census data to estimate how many people tend to live in each unit.

21:54By multiplying the two together, the numbers, the number of units by the people per unit,

22:01we get our population growth forecast. The next key concepts are the historic

22:15service levels and the funding envelopes. The historic service level

22:25levels are established by looking at how many assets we have and what it costs to replace them.

22:33We do a separate calculation for each service for which the development charge applies.

22:40What this determines is if we were to rebuild growth today, this is how much it would cost

22:47to build for each service. Then we take the historic service level and divide it by the

22:58population of the community to determine the service level per person. Finally, we take the

23:11historic service level and multiply it by our population forecast from earlier to get our funding

23:16envelope. The funding envelope sets the upper limits as how much the development charge can pay

23:23for the capital program. To summarize this little bit with all those equations there, the funding

23:37the funding envelope ensures that the service levels are not enhanced through the development

23:42charges, through development charges. However, there are a few exceptions. There are no funding

23:49envelopes that limit water, wastewater, and storm water capital projects and transit has a forward

23:54looking funding envelope and has a different calculation on its own. Before we move through

24:08the other key concepts in this presentation, I want to do a quick aside on the DC timelines.

24:23The first timeline to understand is the backward looking timeline from the bylaw adoption.

24:29The province recently changed how historic service levels are calculated. With previous studies,

24:36we looked at the average service level per year for 15 years. Now we are required to look at the

24:42average service level or before it was for 10 years and now we look at an average for 15 years.

24:49This mostly provides greater rate stability for all services. Some services benefit from the extended

24:55timeline and some services do not. Mr. Scanlon will dive into the numbers of how this impacts

25:01wealth during the special council meeting this evening. The second timeline to consider is

25:12the forward looking timeline from the bylaw adoption. With previous bylaws, they could last

25:18up to five years before they needed to be updated. Now that period is extended to 10 years.

25:25We could go 10 years without doing an update to the bylaw, without doing an update to the

25:31bylaw again. And it's important to remember, council always has a choice to do an update

25:37earlier if it sees fit, if the circumstances change, if the capital program requires review.

25:43That's always an option, but now we have a 10-year runway to work with. The planning horizon,

25:53planning horizons here refer to the timing of both the capital projects and the growth

25:57that are included in the development charge calculation. Some services use the short term

26:02planning horizon and other uses the long term planning horizon. So the short term planning horizon

26:08is the long term planning horizon. Examples are transit parks and recreation library, while

26:14for long term planning horizon services related to highway or roads, public works and fire

26:19protection use the long term planning horizon. Now back to our regular scheduled programming.

26:29Let's talk about the development charge capital program. What do development charges actually

26:36fund? The development charge capital program is assembled by staff and developed in alignment

26:45with the approved master plans. Transportation master plan, water master plan, recreation master

26:50plan all feed into this work. The capital program includes the estimated cost, timing,

26:57and funding sources. This leads us to the next topic, funding sources. Determining the funding

27:08sources is done on a project by project basis. We start with the cost of the project, then remove

27:17any grant amounts because it makes sense that we can't use DC funding when we already have

27:23grant funding. Then we remove the benefit to existing costs. These costs are asset replacement

27:30costs or service level enhancement costs that are not related to growth and therefore cannot be

27:36funded by growth. Lastly, we have the service level cap. This comes into play when we reach that

27:43funding envelope limit that we discussed earlier. After all the deductions we determine what component

27:50of the project can be funded by development charges. Once we know our growth and we know the

28:01dollar value, we can calculate the rate. Remember during the video at the start saying that development

28:07charges are determined by taking the capital cost and dividing it by the projected growth.

28:16To dive a little bit deeper into that, to determine the rates by the residential unit type, we take

28:23all the capital costs and divide it by the population growth, by the population growth to get the DC

28:30capital cost per person. And remember this cost cannot exceed the historic service level per

28:36person as mentioned earlier. Here's that equation there, the total eligible cost divided by the

28:48population growth to get the DC cost per person. And then we take that, then we multiply the DC

29:00cost per person by the number of people per unit to get the rate of each unit type. We have separate

29:05rates for single detached units, multiple small and large apartments and institutional residential

29:14units based on how many people tend to live in each unit. That's why the single residential rate

29:20is higher than an apartment rate, for example. Now switching over to talk about the non-residential

29:30development charges, to determine the non-residential rates we add the DC eligible cost and divide by the

29:35forecasted non-residential floor space to get the DC cost per square foot. And the city has one rate

29:42for all non-residential growth. Where does all the money collected go before it is spent to build

29:56infrastructure? This is where the development charge reserve funds come in. The city has 16

30:07separate reserve funds to keep track of collections and spending. Reserve funds cannot be used for

30:13other purposes. Every dollar in the reserve fund has a job. The city cannot collect development

30:20charges unless there are identified projects to go with it. Near the beginning of the presentation,

30:33we reviewed the stacked Venn diagram with those increasingly smaller circles. Now here's a chance

30:42to talk a little bit more about that. So with the exemptions, the province introduced a 20%

30:50discount with bill 23. The discount phases out over a five-year period. The exemption, and there

31:01is an exemption on industrial expansion that has been present for a long time. The city has an optional

31:09university exemption in the previous bylaw, but was made mandatory with the legislative changes.

31:17The remainder of the legislative discounts are required under bill 23,

31:22and the new exemptions create significant administrative complexity. It is unclear how

31:28many municipalities or it is unclear how a municipality would monitor if a unit remained

31:34affordable or attainable for 25 years, and how a municipality would enforce its agreement

31:40with the developers of such units if it found the unit is no longer affordable or attainable.

31:54The items with the items with an asterisk are changing due to bill 23. Accessory drawing units

32:02were previously exempt under an optional exemption, but are now mandatory under bill 23.

32:12We have optional exemptions for religious institutions, parking structures, hospitals,

32:17and temporary structures. As you can imagine, exemptions create a cash flow challenges,

32:30and they create the cash flow challenges in the year that the exemption applies.

32:35Instead of collecting development charges from developers, the city contributes to the

32:39development charge reserve fund from other sources like taxes, water rates, in order to make the

32:45reserve fund whole. So throughout this presentation, we have gone over the mechanics of how development

32:59charges work. This understanding will help for receiving the information during the special

33:04council meeting from Watson and Associates. We're closing off this workshop with the strategic

33:12considerations to help understand the context of the information. The development charges are

33:23related to the work that is done at the city. Master plans, the capital budget, and the DC study

33:32are all highly related. As mentioned earlier, the DC capital program was developed in alignment

33:38with the council approved master plans. The development charge background study includes

33:43a list of projects to be funded in part or in full by development charges. But it's important to

33:48remember that the background study is not a budget, it's a revenue generation tool to help build the

33:55infrastructure to accommodate growth. Staff will refine the timing of the capital projects through

34:02the 2024 to 2033 capital budget and forecast for council consideration later this year.

34:15The capital program developed for council, the capital program developed from the council adopted

34:21master plans naturally have a few constraints. Those constraints can be grouped into funding

34:29capacity and delivery capacity. The development charge background study helps address the

34:37funding capacity side of the equation. Because the infrastructure needs to be built before

34:44and while the development occurs, there's this mismatch between development charge

34:49collections and spending. Staff will engage in further analysis on the cash flow side as we work

34:54through the multi-year budget process. The special council meeting will show the plurinary analysis

35:01on the fiscal constraint. There are alternate payment options allowed under the development

35:12charges act. The development charges act allows for developers to enter into agreements to pay

35:17development charges early. Front-ending agreements may be an option and may be necessary, but staff

35:25have more work to do to understand front-end how front-ending interacts with our established debt

35:31limits and potential risks in a high inflation environment. Speaking to municipal finance colleagues

35:38in Ontario, front-ending agreements have been characterized as debt by another name.

35:44Staff will further review the best options for growth in the environment that we are in.

35:50Another alternate payment option is area specific charges. Setting up an area specific charge can

35:57make setting up front-ending agreements easier because projects and costs are localized to a

36:04specific area. The drawbacks are that area specific charges are more administratively complex to

36:11collect. They also require dedicated reserve funds which limit flexibility to fund infrastructure

36:17quickly. The next few steps for the study are the special council meeting this evening. Then we

36:29will review and incorporate feedback both from our engagement from council today and

36:37further analysis to be done. Then we are targeting to have the mandatory public meeting in October.

36:42There will be a chance for further review and feedback. And finally we will have the council

36:47meeting to approve the by-law in January. And with that, that concludes the workshop on development

36:54charges presentation. Well, thank you very much for that crash course. I really do appreciate it.

37:07And so why don't we turn it over for questions? I got a couple. Maybe someone else is going to

37:15ask it before me. That's a weird part about going last. But does anyone have questions?

37:20Yeah, start with you, Councillor Clesen. Thanks, Mayor Guthrie. Through you,

37:29staff. I just had a question about the benefit to existing. I just wanted to understand that.

37:35I think it's on page 23 of the presentation. You talked about each project being evaluated

37:44for eligibility. So there's the capital cost minus the grants and then less the benefit to

37:50existing. And I just was hoping if you could give me some concrete examples of what that might be

37:56for clarity. I'd be more than pleased to answer that. Benefit to existing normally is a situation

38:05where let's say I had a 5,000 square foot fire station, and I'm going to replace it with a 15,000

38:11square foot. Generally, the first 5,000 is replacement. So we'd consider that benefit

38:16to existing because through an asset management plan, at a certain time it has to be replaced.

38:22So we would, for the most part, deduct for that. If you have, sometimes you're overcoming a

38:30identified problem in an area, for example, maybe there's an area that has low water pressure.

38:39And when you construct a new water tower, which will help bring that pressure back up,

38:45then maybe 5% of that water tower is being contributed towards increasing the pressure.

38:51So as normally, are you replacing something? Are you overcoming some type of

38:56existing inherent problem? Are you just doing something to serve us existing residents? Maybe

39:05there's an area of the city that hasn't got water or sewer right now. So now we're going to extend

39:10water and sewer mains into that area. So there may be a deduction for that. So generally,

39:16through board hearings, we've evolved to defining what type of things would be deducted.

39:23Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Boussoufel, please.

39:29Yes, thank you. And it's actually the exact same slide, different row. It's about the grants. And

39:36it's in reference to that earlier slide too of the circle within the circle and the circle and

39:41what is in and what is out and who carries the burden afterwards. Trying to understand grants.

39:46So these are public grants that come to the municipality. And just so that I'm clear on

39:51understanding. So even though there are public funds that come into this formula, the benefit

39:57of those grants is are accrued to the developer.

40:00and not to the public tax holders because they still have to carry the residual in that purse.

40:08Is that understanding correct? Yeah, I'm going to qualify it a little bit,

40:13but for the most part you're right. The act says if we're getting external funding,

40:18then unless it's targeted towards let's say the benefit to existing the asset management,

40:24there are some grants that are solely for asset management. If they're just a general grant,

40:29then generally we would deduct it off the off of the total project. If it's specific for asset

40:36management, there are some monies that the province has made for asset management,

40:41then we wouldn't deduct it off the growth site. If you think about your gas tax,

40:48we would not deduct that against the project, the gross cost. And we've done, we just last

40:55you did a hearing specifically on trying to define whether gas tax should be a deduction.

41:00But the way the gas tax is structured is generally it's almost like a general revenue that you

41:07receive and you can identify where you want to use it. You could use it for all asset management

41:13projects. You could use it for some component of growth, but generally we suggest that it's only used

41:19to fund any of the municipal cost and not deduct it from the growth related. Is that helpful?

41:28Yes, thank you. And I understand the gas tax because I know municipalities apply differently,

41:33Kingson versus Gwelford where they apply that. But and just so I'm very, very clear at the end of the

41:38day, that slide, you know, with the circles, the gray and the various greens at the end of the day,

41:45the benefit of the grant goes to the developer and not to pay the bill, the community, the taxpayer

41:52at the end of the day. Is that correct? It would go to both. So if I had a project that was 90%

41:59growth and 10% municipal contribution, it would go against the total project cost. So we would

42:09reduce it, let's say the grant is 50%. So we go from $100 down to $50. I'd still end up with $45,

42:1890% then of the net cost would be the developer's share and $5 would be the municipal share. So we

42:25still have that 90-10 relationship, but now on a reduced cost. So we go from a gross cost to a net

42:33and then we still keep that same split. But both would benefit from it.

42:38Thank you.

42:39Councillor Olt, please.

42:41Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie, through you to staff. And I'm going to ask you to go slowly,

42:47I think, because I think this is of a concern to the public. I was wondering if you could

42:52please unpack the established debt limit and how Bill 23 can affect Gwelf's capacity to

42:59actually fund infrastructure necessary for 18,000 units. And if you could also comment on the need

43:06to sustain our current infrastructure, both of those two things now seem to have a significant

43:11impact on our debt limit, if I understood that properly. I've been elected to respond, Councillor.

43:21Tag, you're in. Yeah, thank you. So right off the bat, the province says, almost like a mortgage,

43:28if you go to the bank, you have a debt capacity limit. The bank says, I'll lend you up to

43:35an amount so that your debt payments don't exceed 25% of your household income.

43:41It's the same thing for municipalities. Your debt is limited to 25% of your total own revenue,

43:49which means if you're getting grants, social service grants or health grants,

43:56they're deducted. So it's really the net amount that you raise. So the amount you're paying in

44:01debt charge can't exceed 25% of those revenues. So that's the starting point. As we're looking

44:09at development charges, as the province introduces additional exemptions and such,

44:17we're funding a project. So if the province says we're deducting all of these things, and now you

44:22can only collect 75% of the cost, we still have to fund that project. So the other 25%

44:30then gets put onto property taxes or onto your water and wastewater rates. And that is,

44:38well, what finance has to deal with is you also have the Infrastructure for Jobs and Prosperity Act,

44:44where the province is saying municipalities must move towards asset management. So you must develop

44:51these asset management plans. And realistically, at some point, they wear out. So you're going to

44:56have to deal with it. So now we have at the same time where you're trying to deal with continuing,

45:02keeping those assets replaced, functioning so for all the existing residents can enjoy the

45:08infrastructure they have. We now have this additional burden, which is now put down onto

45:14finance to figure out how do we balance all of these extra costs. If there's no magic, I mean,

45:22if it's something that is more immediate, you have to turn to probably to debt, because you don't

45:28have the money in the reserves yet. So now you've got competing debt. Do we just do it for asset

45:34management? Or now are we trying to do all of the growth? And if development wants to move fast and

45:41such, well, this is your capital budget is the tool where you're going to be, well, staff will

45:46be recommending how to balance the two of those competing issues. Okay, thank you. What I'm

45:53concerned about are two things related to this. It strikes me that this could actually put a

45:59municipality in financial jeopardy. Am I correct in assuming that? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's

46:08something that's occurred like this, no chance to plan. There's a lot of policies that the province

46:13is saying you must accommodate this growth. You must, you know, we must meet these targets, etc.

46:21And so it's now becoming a challenge. We, I, our firm are working with a number of municipalities

46:30to work towards more of the use of the agreements with developers that could be front ending.

46:39So the developers at front ending is alone. Okay, so the developers say, okay, there's a water

46:44main $10 million. I need it. I will upfront or me and a couple of the other developers will give you

46:51a loan and you'll pay us back as all the rest of the developments come. Now, what's a positive

46:58feature about the front ending provisions of the development charges act is it doesn't impact your

47:04debt capacity. Okay, because the revenue is the cash flow, the loan is coming from developers,

47:11the offset revenue coming back in is future development charges. So the way the province

47:17looks at it is it's a bit of a wash so we can sit outside. So given the debt capacity issues that

47:24are facing many, many municipalities right now, they're looking at either getting into agreements

47:30where you're going to prepay your development charges. So you got a 200 unit subdivision.

47:34I need you to give me the money now so I can enhance my cash flow. Or alternatively, if the

47:39projects are so big, you need to do a lot more of these projects and you're going to have to be

47:44giving us loans as well as prepaying your development charges and what workout how you get the money

47:50back. Well, that's clear. It strikes me that we are going to be assuming more debt, although we

48:01are not necessarily going to be recognizing it on our ledgers as debt. That's what I'm hearing you say.

48:09If you use through the mayor, if you use the proper tools provided by the Development Charges

48:16Act, yes, you'll still have a liability to pay back, but it won't be debt as part of your debt

48:24capacity calculation, the province. Okay, thank you. I have one more question related to that.

48:31And that is actually about the province making this whole. In your opinion, what does it mean,

48:39the province making this whole? What should it be to the city? And is there a difference between

48:44what we can expect in the province's understanding of making this whole and what the city might

48:49consider making this whole? Well, I look at, yes, collecting my thoughts through the mayor.

49:01If you go back to the November 28th letter from the Minister Clark that went to the

49:07mayor and all the councils and municipalities. The second paragraph in it talked about

49:19potentially assisting municipalities for development related infrastructure.

49:26To me, that is to me. I haven't defined it, but this is my opinion. You can't get a building

49:34permit without having the water and the sanitary sewer capacity and the pipes to your property.

49:40So to me, personally, that's the enabling portion of that.

49:48So that, and even when you get to the very last paragraph, they refer back to enabling infrastructure

49:55and making municipalities whole. The very, very confusing thing is in that second paragraph that

50:04I referred to, it also said making you whole for those municipalities that achieve the targets that

50:12are set out, you know, your 18,000 unit target. But how do you know, how do you get the money

50:20now when you're building the infrastructure when they say that you'll get the money,

50:25when you reach those targets in the timelines they set up? So to me once again, and me,

50:31I'm very confused and while I get confused very often, I'm an economist, but I'm just

50:36suggesting that when I read that, I find it very difficult to believe that those would translate

50:42directly into grants. What I have heard from some of the public interviews is comments that have said

50:52you should get enough new taxes that you should have more than enough money to compensate for

51:00the losses that you'll incur by all of these different deductions. And once again, I jump to

51:09the question, well, that seems to be saying if you doubled the population, the municipality,

51:16all of that money is just a windfall. You don't need any extra money for extra

51:24parks that you're going to bring on, so cutting the grass and doing the programs.

51:29They got subdivisions, you have to plow them, maintain the new roads that you're going to assume,

51:33et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I have heard those comments and I find it difficult to say,

51:41well, okay, so I'm going to get new operating revenues, but I'm also going to get new operating

51:49expenses. So I don't know how to balance all of this. So I would find the minister's letter

51:55confusing. I don't know how, when you hear the words, we'll make you whole and I keep hearing that.

52:00Go back and read. I compelled people to go back and read that letter and then look what it actually

52:07said and I don't interpret it the same way. And thank you very much. I appreciate that and I do

52:12have another one. As a consequence of that, I apologize. And perhaps it can't be answered to

52:18the next part, but I'm just wondering because I think like you, I'm quite confused by this.

52:25The new tax revenue is speculative at best, but what's the impact going to be on our reserves

52:30or communities that have very little in the way of reserves? Through the mayor, well,

52:36they're not going to generate a lot of new reserves I would submit. And if you're experiencing these

52:44large deficits, you're going to have to come up with revenue. So you either drain your existing

52:50resources, you incur a lot of debt, or you compel the development community to partner, and that's

52:59a partnership. It is. Or you know what, you can't attain the growth targets that you wanted to.

53:07I mean, there's some layers there and each municipality will be unique.

53:12Thank you very much.

53:16Thanks. Okay, Councillor Rourke, next please.

53:20Thanks, Margot 3. Through you to staff or Mr. Scanlon, I just want to ask a question around

53:27the elimination of housing from the development charges. So we had a big workshop last week

53:33on housing. Obviously, we're concerned, the county is concerned. So, and maybe this is a

53:39question for our next meeting. But so did we ever collect any development charges towards

53:48sort of shelters, supportive housing, etc. And I heard our staff say we did not,

53:56but did the county, right, for future projects that we clearly need. And so if they did, do we

54:02know what that shortfall might be for us? I mean, here was a source where we could potentially fund

54:07real affordable housing. So I'm just wondering if you could comment on

54:11what the impact of that elimination of housing for development charges is.

54:17So through the mayor, I don't, I know that both the city as well as the county were looking to

54:24include this as a new, a new component of their charges. And obviously with the changes,

54:31they haven't been able to do it. So I don't have the exact figures. What I can say across Ontario,

54:37and which is a little bit surprising to me, is the fact that it, I looked at all of the bylaws

54:43that have development charges. And that elimination, that service is moving is removing 2.2 billion

54:51dollars off of municipalities such as, you know, Holton region, Peel region, you know, York, Toronto,

54:57etc. 2.2 billion. And that is going to affect the creation of 42,000 units that in the province,

55:06the 42,000 units is 3% of the province's target. So the province has removed money,

55:15which would have assisted in the create not fully funded mode, don't, don't be mistaken,

55:21but it would have assisted in that creation of 42,000 units. So the municipality's ability to

55:28participate as on their own has been reduced, their abilities have been reduced. Thank you.

55:38For you, Marigot three to staff and Mr. Scanlon slide eight shows that growth studies used to be

55:44included as a development charge. I'm just wondering just for illustrative purposes,

55:49how many times in the past five years has the province changed the targets on our population

55:54timelines? I think it's three or four times. That triggers sort of re digging of all those

56:00studies. And can you just give us a ballpark idea of what just that exemption alone will cost the

56:05city of Guelph? I think just a well qualified I think was in the range of eight or nine million

56:18dollars. Thank you. Three America three another question related to a planning meeting we had

56:25earlier this month. Slide nine, at least in the original presentation said university use is 100

56:32percent exempt. So I'm wondering, does this have to be the university itself on campus or on university

56:40owned property? Or could it extend to these new private post-secondary residences?

56:48Like the property at 601 Scottsdale or like the recent development application that we heard.

56:53Is that defined yet? Another good question, Councillor through the mayor. Like any piece of

57:01legislation, unfortunately, it's guys like me that go in and assist in interpreting the legislation.

57:06So there's no interpretation of the exact words at this particular point. The exemption was created

57:13by the Ministry of Training Colleges and University. You won't find it in the Development Charges Act.

57:21They dropped it into their legislation. And they basically said land vested in or least to a

57:27municipality that receives regular or ongoing operating funds from the government for post

57:33secondary education is exempt from development charges. If the development in respect of which

57:39the charges would otherwise be payable is intended to be occupied or used by the university.

57:47And so we will the words that will look to clarify is intended to be occupied and used by the

57:58university. And I'd almost wonder when will they'll probably do be different layers that we would

58:04evaluate. If it was the university contracting to have the residences constructed specifically

58:12only for their students, then potentially that may be one that we would say, yeah, I think it's

58:17leaning towards an exemption. When you get out to getting into contracts with private providers,

58:31you'd have to look at it in a little bit more detail just because it's on university land.

58:37I could be, you know, developing it to make it available to anybody. So just because it's on the

58:43land may not fit the category of being intended and used for the university. So at this point,

58:52councillor, unfortunately, that's as far as I can go. It will probably be more of a

59:00case by case basis that you would have to evaluate some of these. And you'd probably have to look

59:06a little bit deeper than just saying it's residences on our land. I think you need to

59:14probably delve a little bit deeper. And thank you. I appreciate the clarity because it's one of the

59:20things that we need to be vigilant about the language and to understand potential impacts.

59:28I am through you, Mayor Guthrie. Might be my last question, might be my second last.

59:34Slide 33 talks about purpose built rental buildings. So I'm wondering when does that

59:41development charge charged? And I'm thinking of, you know, a proposal where we heard, well,

59:47it might be rental, but it might be condo or might convert later. And so how do we function in that

59:54framework? So it's another planning question we had this month. How does it work?

1:00:03There are some unique situations. Through you, Mr. Mayor, what it may, what some municipalities

1:00:11have done is sought to enter a new agreement, either saying, okay, either you're determining

1:00:21that you're exempt. But if within the year or two, you, we see that it's not, you're going to pay us.

1:00:28Or quite clearly under section 27, you can get into a delayed payment agreement. So you could

1:00:34say, okay, no payments due right now, but whatever the will evaluate it upon, you know, within a

1:00:41year after construction, and you will pay us the development charge, perhaps plus interest or whatever.

1:00:48I mean, it's just because you collect it, they're at building permit or don't collect it at

1:00:54building permit, you do have opportunities to make sure that you're, you're getting the, all the

1:01:02facts at the time that the building permits being issued. Okay. Thank you. And Mayor Guthrie, just

1:01:07a last one. Just to, just to interrupt everyone, I forgot to say this, it's okay, I just, we're

1:01:13having a workshop. So you don't have to do the whole through Mayor Guthrie thing to our guests as

1:01:17well. Just we're having a workshop. We're all the same here. Just just talk back and forth, ask

1:01:22questions and answer them. Okay. So my last question, Mayor Guthrie is

1:01:28when we talk about, when we talk about reserves, there was a myth out there for a while when we're

1:01:36talking about housing prices and municipalities ability to pay for, for growth. So there's a bit

1:01:42of a myth that municipalities are sitting on these vast amounts of reserves. And I'm wondering if you

1:01:48wanted to dispel that myth or explain why those reserves are necessary. I'd be happy to. If you

1:01:58look at the 2021 financial information returns, which all municipalities instead of financial

1:02:07statements, you have to fill out a very detailed, many, many schedules and they go to the province

1:02:13and they give us a lot of very good information on each individual municipality. If you take

1:02:18a look at the development charge reserves, I think the observation comes from the fact that there

1:02:24was $7 billion in reserves. Okay. If we take a look at water and wastewater, of that $7 billion,

1:02:34there wasn't a lot, maybe less than something in the range about 8% of those reserves were for

1:02:41water and wastewater. And even at that 30, I think 35 of the municipalities were reporting negative

1:02:47balances. So, and I bring that up because some of the money has to be spent to create land.

1:02:56So water and wastewater, you've got to put the money in the ground and hope that they will come

1:03:02and build and you're doing the cash flow. So that was missed. They just focused on the big numbers.

1:03:09The ones that are the biggest component of that $7 billion is roads. So that municipalities do

1:03:18collect for roads and they, you know, a lot of times they'll bank it until they have enough

1:03:24money to build the appropriate works and such. So there's some that you got to build at the time

1:03:29of development. Some are during development and some of those monies follow development.

1:03:35And that's not, once again, that's not discussed, talked about. There is, the MFWA have released

1:03:43a couple of papers. We wrote one of them just to evaluate what the, all the different reserves

1:03:49represent and gave some commentary on it. But what's there specifically on just the DC component is

1:03:58a lot of those monies are to build the recreation complexes. So you're not issuing debt

1:04:04and adding more interest onto the DC, the roads you're trying to construct it as you have the money,

1:04:10et cetera. But the one, the big one that worried me is the fact that 35 municipalities were into

1:04:16huge negative balances on the water and the wastewater. Plus they never reported how much

1:04:23debt, even though you got money in the reserve, you've got debt charges that you're paying for

1:04:28growth. So have you fully collected everything you need to pay those debt charges? And that's

1:04:34what's missing in the analysis. A huge amount of debt is against DCs. And even though you got a

1:04:41balance, that's not being reflected. So there's a lot of misnomers in there. And sorry for such a

1:04:48long description, but it's, it's something that was just said, Oh, look at all the money. They're

1:04:53not spending it. They don't need it. That's what I've heard. I don't believe it from my background.

1:05:00So thank you, Mr. Scanlon. My last question is, so you work in a lot municipalities across the

1:05:07province. Is there any mechanism or, you know, are home builders or developers and for whatever

1:05:15commercial residential doesn't matter? Are they thinking of any mechanisms to pass along any of

1:05:21those savings to home buyers? Is that part of the conversation at all? I haven't heard where we're

1:05:32seeing discounts. And I hate to say it. I've been around for 45 years. I know I look far to you,

1:05:38but I've been around through the lot, every regime, the passage in the 1989 DCA, the 1997 and every

1:05:46modification since, and each one of those changes have reduced the development charge. And with each

1:05:54one of those, I have never seen a reduction, a corresponding reduction in the house price.

1:06:00So my observation, I'm sure somebody can provide some level of statistics from the other side,

1:06:07but I work with municipalities, you know, we work for 100 and some odd for development charges.

1:06:14And as I say, I've been around a lot longer than a lot of the other people. So thank you.

1:06:22I'm just going to go to Koran and then Billings, please.

1:06:25Yes, directly to Mr. Scanlon. Back to Councillor Orwell's question regarding exemption for

1:06:36post-secondary institution. It's my understanding, I'm just looking for clarity, that the legislation

1:06:42specifically states that the province will provide a payment in lieu of what we call the heads and

1:06:48beds levy for the institutional zone for post-secondary institutions, hospitals, and

1:06:55there's a third institution of jails. I think jails, hospitals, and post-secondary, so the heads

1:07:03and beds levy. That was my understanding for the exemption. Is that part of the legislation that

1:07:10you just referred to, or is that something that is currently unknown that requires further

1:07:17clarification? And if it requires further clarification, are there new regulations coming?

1:07:24I know it doesn't specifically, it's not only applies to the payment of property taxes, the

1:07:31payments in lieu, but also applies to development charges, or are they separate? The development

1:07:36charges act and the payments in lieu on municipal properties that are two completely different

1:07:42things. This is the first time I've heard somebody put the link between the heads and beds,

1:07:52revenues, as an offset to development charges. I haven't heard that. Heads and beds are normally in

1:08:00lieu of property taxes, so they're from some form of payment in lieu. So that's as far as I can go.

1:08:08I haven't heard that, and I haven't heard that they're going to be increased to compensate.

1:08:12Yeah, I believe they've remained the same since 1986, and they're just not keeping up with

1:08:23cost of living. But if it doesn't apply to development charges, then I think that's something

1:08:28that we need further clarity on. Thanks. Thank you, Councillor. Over to Councillor Billings.

1:08:40I just wanted to go back to the conversation about our pledge, like the 18,000 units,

1:08:48and hopefully, you know, the province may make us whole. But in the 10-year forecast that we're

1:08:56dealing with with the DC draft bylaw, it has 12.5, not 18,000. So my first question is,

1:09:06I'm assuming if we did put the 18,000 unit in our financial implications, I mean the city,

1:09:13our financial implications would look even worse. That's my first question. Is that accurate or not?

1:09:24Right now, we've used the lower estimate because all of this has come very quickly.

1:09:32Obviously, we just got the news, which is just trying to figure out the implications.

1:09:36You haven't even seen a capital budget that will embrace this. So we're a little bit ahead of the

1:09:43game. We have recognized that there's going to be a revenue loss, so that has to be taken into

1:09:50account. So we have, and it'll be in my presentation, well, where I will reaffirm that we've used the

1:10:00lower housing forecast. Now, that being said, that doesn't mean that you can't, or the calculations

1:10:08we've done will restrict you from hitting the 18,000. It's just that I've got, our calculations

1:10:15say, okay, we've assumed 10 years. If you're able to build the infrastructure and the developers

1:10:22are willing to build at that pace, then just consider it a six-year forecast. And you'll come

1:10:29back in and update the development charge in year four or five. It doesn't mean we've moved away

1:10:36from our commitment. It just means until you need a little bit of time to sort out all the

1:10:42implications of this. And when you do, you'll be able to move ahead. And that's part of this

1:10:47discussion as we spoke of. If we haven't got the debt capacity, part of this is, you know,

1:10:52finding partnerships with the development community. And there's nothing wrong with that.

1:10:57You know, there's, you know, if you cannot incur that much debt, then the only way that

1:11:03can help is partnerships. And we've been dealing with a number of communities where the developers

1:11:10are working as partners. So I'm not taking away that they won't. It's just what we're suggesting

1:11:18is we may, with all of these changes, we may be entering a new way of doing some of these

1:11:24arrangements because your abilities have been reduced. So they have to, and maybe there's

1:11:34a positive to that in that if the developers are contributing, then you know that if I'm going to pay

1:11:39money, I want to get my money back. So it will say, okay, if I'm committing to giving you money,

1:11:45I'm going to commit to building where to some extent right now, you're always in a position of

1:11:51if I build it, I hope they will come. That's a little bit unfair. But, you know, there are a

1:11:57lot of municipalities that have invested in hopes of development occurring and it hasn't. No, I'm

1:12:04not saying that's your particular instance, but I know that's happened. So it may be a closer

1:12:09tie between commitment and investment. Okay, I agree and understand it was more the our forecast

1:12:21is for the lesser, the 12, approximately 12 and a half and not the 18,000 units. So the province

1:12:30sees that in our forecast. So does that put at us the municipality at risk having a conversation

1:12:36with the province to make us whole? Does it hurt us or you don't say it makes a difference whether

1:12:44or not at a provincial level looking at us, whether or not we put the 12 and a half or the 18,000 in?

1:12:51Just one second. So we're just, this is a valid question, Councillor. We're bleeding into the

1:12:58next meeting, which is where Gary is going to go through all of that. So that question is

1:13:06kind of housed, no pun intended, with the next meeting. So can we just save that? Is there anything

1:13:12from like the workshop perspective, especially with staff and that that we could, I mean, I could

1:13:18talk to Gary for hours and we probably will get ready starting at seven. But is there anything

1:13:25from you Councillor Billings or anybody else that is more directed to like the workshop

1:13:29referencing and information than what his presentation is going to be for us on what's

1:13:38our position moving forward in the next meeting? I'll go back to you Councillor Billings.

1:13:45No, I guess I'm okay except for during the Q&A, the audio was off. So it was the question

1:13:56that Councillor Roark asked about the university, like the student housing, specifically,

1:14:01you know, Gordon and Stone, whether or not those DCs could be waived. And for, I would say, 90%

1:14:08of Gary's answer, I couldn't hear what it was. And so moving forward, I just wanted to know, okay,

1:14:17maybe it hasn't been defined enough, but what will, what's going to happen with respect to,

1:14:22is there going to be like a challenge on this? What, what, how will that be determined whether

1:14:27or not those DCs will be waived for student housing? So, yeah, Gary, could you mind just giving a

1:14:36quick repeat of that answer that you gave Councillor Roark and, yeah, we'll just all kind of make sure

1:14:42we're speaking clearly into the mic and the audio works. Thank you. Yeah, I think I was identifying

1:14:49that. There's words sort of there that say that it's to the, let me quote it again, that the

1:14:59development would otherwise be payable is intended to be occupied or used by the university. So it's

1:15:08their lands owned by university, and they'll be intended to be occupied and used by the university.

1:15:15So obviously, you would say, okay, if I'm building, you know, new lecture halls and such,

1:15:21obviously that's, that's a direct use. When we get into some of the issues with student housing,

1:15:30it's less clear. And I think what I suggested is if we saw the university tendering and building

1:15:39the buildings and it could only be occupied by students period, I think probably it would meet

1:15:45that definition. As you move away from it being the university and such, so maybe it's the university

1:15:53land, but some form of development occurs on it, you'd have to look probably a little bit deeper

1:15:58into what is the arrangement being, being created? Is it am I just building apartments? And it's a

1:16:06revenue generator for the, for the university, because, you know, I'm not intending, I'm going

1:16:13to build a, build a seniors housing, and I'll give the university some money to help in the cash flow.

1:16:18I wouldn't, I wouldn't think that that would meet that definition. I think it's, but somewhere in

1:16:26between there, there's going to be maybe a development that's working, which may wholly or

1:16:31partially benefit the university. So these are words when, when we create new legislation,

1:16:38there's new words, inevitably it's going to be chatted about at the board and somebody like me

1:16:44has to assist in defining what it means. So. Okay. And then also in the slide deck, there was the one

1:16:52where you have, okay, less grants and then less benefit to existing. And then the next one, I don't

1:17:00have the slide deck in front of me. The next one though had to do, I believe, with the service

1:17:05level caps. I think that's not the service level caps. What does it say under that one? Like it's

1:17:21got less the grants, like to do the calculation, less the grants, less the benefit to existing.

1:17:27And then the third one. What's that? DC, I'll let Kevin answer that.

1:17:39Yeah. So the development charges act, make sure that service levels are maintained in this,

1:17:46in the face of growth. So they don't. So there are a certain amount that we can charge for

1:17:54development charges to fund growth projects. And once we reach our funding envelope, we can no

1:18:01longer fund projects further. So if our funding envelope allows for a $20 million program, for

1:18:08example, and this project puts us over to a $25 million program, then you deduct that $5 million

1:18:16to ensure that you stay in your funding envelope and you maintain your service level with growth.

1:18:23Okay. So the reason why I asked was because it was, like it's clear, benefit to existing. We have

1:18:30that number that that's clear grants. Yeah. Okay. But then that, this other one, the next one that

1:18:37we would reduce the DC spot, I didn't know in our 10-year forecast if we were really affected

1:18:43much by that or not. Did that end up being a big number or a small number? It'll be one of my

1:18:54slides and it's not a significant impact in your particular case. Okay. But I will talk to it in

1:19:03my presentation. Okay. Thank you. That's all, Mr. Mer. Great. Thank you. And the last I have is

1:19:11Gauher, please. And just a reminder to try to stick it to the workshop question. And then I'll go to

1:19:19boost until after that as well. Okay. Absolutely. Thank you. This question, I get regularly from

1:19:26a few of my constituents, whether or not we can

1:19:31pause development. And I know some municipalities played with the idea of a development moratorium

1:19:37if we were running out of budget. And I just wanted to ask the question, is that a tool in our

1:19:43belt? If a reserves get to a certain point, say with, do we have the ability to say we're going

1:19:50to stop accepting development applications for the next six months, for the next year, or is that

1:19:56something that's not available to us?

1:20:01I mean, that's, to some extent, that's a planning question.

1:20:05I think the way that the province has structured

1:20:08all of the legislation I've been seeing

1:20:10with respect to growth,

1:20:12if you've got capacity and there's an ability there,

1:20:15then they can move along and construct.

1:20:20There are some municipalities

1:20:22that have put moratoriums on growth.

1:20:24And those are the situations where they've run out

1:20:27of water capacity or wastewater capacity.

1:20:29And as I say, that's why I say those are enabling services.

1:20:33If you can't get a hookup to a water system or sewer system,

1:20:38you're not gonna get a building permit.

1:20:41So in those particular instances,

1:20:43if you run out of capacity

1:20:44and you don't have money to expand those areas,

1:20:47you may be faced with a slowdown of some sort,

1:20:50or whatever those municipalities

1:20:53that I had to put the moratorium.

1:20:56Past that, it's more of a planning question

1:21:01and it's outside my pay grade.

1:21:03Appreciate that.

1:21:04Thank you.

1:21:06Thanks, Councillor.

1:21:07Yeah, right back to you, Mr. Tull.

1:21:08Thank you and through, not through the mayor.

1:21:11Mr. Scanlon, thank you.

1:21:12You talked about partnerships and front-ending,

1:21:16and I'm trying to picture this operationally and policy-wise.

1:21:20And my question is about,

1:21:22from your experience in my mind and picturing that,

1:21:26it would be inherently preferential to large developers

1:21:31with deep pockets,

1:21:33which would determine who, what, when, and where

1:21:36building happens.

1:21:37And so I'm just asking,

1:21:39you've seen that practice out there in municipalities.

1:21:42I'm trying to picture what it would be.

1:21:46Is it preferential?

1:21:48Is it biased towards large developers

1:21:51that then are able to do that?

1:21:54We, it's not just one developer, it can be many.

1:21:59I'm working within a municipality just down the road

1:22:04in Wellington County.

1:22:05And the developers need to build sanitary infrastructure.

1:22:09New treatment, they have no sanitary.

1:22:11They're building a treatment plant,

1:22:13they're building all of the big pipes.

1:22:15And it hasn't just been one or two of the big developers.

1:22:18It's been a number of the landowners

1:22:21who are participating in doing all of the front-ending,

1:22:25prepaying their development charges

1:22:26in order to make it happen.

1:22:28So in Halton Region, they do,

1:22:32they've done extensive front-ending.

1:22:34In fact, back in 1982, 83, I worked for Halton Region.

1:22:39And we were the first ones to actually come up

1:22:40with front-ending programs.

1:22:42And because we didn't transition from a county

1:22:46to a region very well, and we didn't have the money.

1:22:49So the developers were in, and we had a collective group

1:22:53that would, you know, put in the money to upfront.

1:22:56Once again, the water treatment, sewage treatment.

1:22:59So it doesn't have to be one or two.

1:23:01It can be a collective group that'll kind of band together

1:23:06and make it happen.

1:23:07But it takes engagement and having those discussions

1:23:12and talking, you know, laying out some of the financials,

1:23:16how the money comes into the city

1:23:19and how they perceive it's going to flow back to them

1:23:23through, you know, recoveries from other landowners and such.

1:23:32Great. So I only had one question,

1:23:34not to put you on the spot, but you mentioned it.

1:23:35You said that you wrote a couple of papers

1:23:37or were a part of a group that wrote a couple of papers.

1:23:39And I wrote it down.

1:23:41Am I saying this right?

1:23:42M-F-O-A or M-A-O-F?

1:23:44I don't know. What was it?

1:23:45The municipal finance officers.

1:23:48So...

1:23:49Is that publicly available?

1:23:51Those documents are.

1:23:52Yeah, would you mind sending them to, like, Tara or staff?

1:23:55And then maybe Tara could just give them to us?

1:23:57Because I think that'd be an interesting read,

1:23:59just to, you know, just to understand that position.

1:24:03Or just send a link where the other publicly available

1:24:07documents are.

1:24:08Just be really interesting to dive a little bit deeper

1:24:11into some of the reasoning that you have

1:24:13and others around there on that issue.

1:24:16So thank you.

1:24:17I'd be happy to.

1:24:18And then the last question,

1:24:19maybe just a little bit embarrassing,

1:24:20but I'm sorry, I kind of forget,

1:24:21but I was, I want to hear the answer again,

1:24:25if you don't mind.

1:24:25Councillor Roark asked a question

1:24:27and you said around $8 to $9 million.

1:24:29But I forget the question.

1:24:31So can you just say that again?

1:24:32Because I wrote $8 to $9 million down on my page,

1:24:35but I can't remember what it was about.

1:24:36But I know it was a good answer, but I can't remember.

1:24:39The question was with respect to,

1:24:42we used to have growth studies in the DC.

1:24:45And what would that translate into?

1:24:48And it's $9 million.

1:24:50It's actually in the staff report.

1:24:53$9 million is the amount that we've removed

1:24:55from the capital listing.

1:24:59Because those used to be covered off

1:25:00by development charges,

1:25:01which is now the legislation doesn't allow.

1:25:03Similar to a big impact like the social service housing.

1:25:07And that also Councillor Roark asked about,

1:25:10which was going to be my other question.

1:25:11So I appreciate that.

1:25:12Okay.

1:25:13Well, thank you very much.

1:25:15I don't see any more questions

1:25:16on the workshop side of things.

1:25:19To clerks, it looks like we did plan

1:25:22to make sure that we started the next meeting at seven.

1:25:24So we'll just have to take a break.

1:25:26We can't keep going.

1:25:26So if I could just ask for,

1:25:30first of all, thank you to staff,

1:25:32especially around the workshop.

1:25:33Thank you very, very much.

1:25:34And if I could have just a motion to adjourn.

1:25:37I, Councillor Bousatil will do that.

1:25:38Seconded by Councillor Clausson.

1:25:41Anyone against adjournment of the workshop?

1:25:44Don't hear or see anybody.

1:25:46So I'll call this meeting adjourned.

1:25:49Our next meeting, which, you know,

1:25:51I think we probably covered off about a third

1:25:53of the next meeting as it is.

1:25:55It will start at seven o'clock.

1:25:57I'd like this please start right on the dot.

1:25:59So let's make sure that we're here right on the dot.

1:26:01And then that will be about the development charge

1:26:05background study, really particular

1:26:07for what we're looking at for us as a city.

1:26:09So, and we'll get your presentation there, Gary.

1:26:14So thank you very much.

1:26:16All right, I will see everybody.