Council Planning

0:17Good evening everyone and welcome to our city council planning meeting. It's May the 10th.

0:24And thank you very much for being here. Appreciate it to staff colleagues into the public as well.

0:30We got a pretty packed agenda tonight. So looking forward to going through each of the items that are listed for us.

0:36And right off the bat, I am.

0:40Just going to obviously call the meeting to order, which I have, but I'm going to actually ask the clerk as well.

0:46To look to put the Canada flag up on the screen for us there as we just take a moment to focus on.

0:52Our flag in.

0:55Lou of singing, oh Canada.

1:06Great, thank you.

1:08And now just for a moment of silent reflection.

1:22Great, thank you.

1:23And our territory territorial acknowledgement as we gather, we are reminded that Guelph is situated on treaty land that is steeped in rich indigenous history and home to many First Nation.

1:33Inuit and Métis people today.

1:35As a city, we have a responsibility for the stewardship of the land in which we both live and work.

1:40And today we acknowledge the Mississaugas of the credit First Nation.

1:44Of the Anishinaabek peoples on whose traditional territory we are meeting.

1:50And with that right into my first question of the evening.

1:54Hopefully not too many more. Any disclosure of pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof.

1:59I did have a couple reach out to me. Let me start with Councillor.

2:03Corrine that has her hand up first go right ahead.

2:06Yes, thank you. Mr. Mayor on agenda item 6.185 and 89 willow road. I'll be declaring conflict of interest.

2:16My spouse has a business relationship with one of the applicants.

2:20Yeah, thank you so much.

2:22And then also over to

2:25Councillor O'Rourke, please.

2:27Thank you, Mr. Mayor as I have previous times that

2:33decision. Well, items 6.1 85 and 89 willow road has come to council.

2:38My husband is a member of the board for Kindle communities.

2:42And they are one of the proponents. So I'll recuse myself from the conversation and the vote.

2:46Yep. All right. And anything else at all? Anybody

2:51hearing and seeing none so we can move forward. Thank you for those disclosures.

2:57And we are at the consent agenda. We have just one item which is titled bylaw exemption places of worship.

3:07And I am just wondering if there's a member of council that would be willing to

3:12move the consent on that one. Councillor Downer, Councillor Gibson, lots of hands there.

3:19Seconds that. Thank you. Is there anything further on that one?

3:23I'll call the vote. All in favour of the consent agenda item.

3:29Looks unanimous to me. Are you okay? Perfect. That passes unanimously. Thank you.

3:36And on to our rest of the agenda. And we'll basically start right here at the beginning because it

3:44looks like we have delegations for many. And the first one is on 65 Del High Street, the Zoning

3:51Bylaw Amendment in Ward 2. We are going to start with a staff presentation first.

3:59And after that we have a few delegations that have also signed up. So we'll hear from them

4:07and see from some of them because we are piloting some of the video

4:12delegation opportunities as well. So with that, why don't I turn it over to you, Katie, and

4:18and you can give the staff presentation side of it. And then we'll come back to me for some

4:24other comments after you're done. So go right ahead. Good evening, Marga 3, members of council

4:36and members of the public. This is the statutory public meeting for 65 Del High Street in Ward 2

4:44to provide information about an application for a zoning bylaw amendment by MHBC planning

4:50on behalf of the county of Wellington. The subject site is approximately 0.53 hectares in size

5:00and located to the northwest of the intersection of Del High Street and Aramosa Road. The site is

5:07shown on screen outlined in yellow, but it is part of a larger parcel of land that extends to the

5:12north, which is city owned green space that is not part of this application. The site contains a

5:19two-story building and is accessed from a private lane off of Del High Street. Surrounding land

5:26uses include to the north, city owned parkland, with single detached dwellings on Glen Hill Drive

5:32on the other side of the parkland, to the east across Aramosa are a variety of single detached

5:38dwellings, to the south along Del High Street are a mix of medical offices and single detached

5:43dwellings, and to the west are medical office buildings in the Guelph General Hospital. The

5:54site is predominantly designated as low density residential in the city's official plan, which

5:59is meant for residential areas in the built-up area of the city that are predominantly low density

6:04and character. A small portion of the westerly edge of the site is designated as major institutional,

6:11which recognizes and allows for large-scale institutional uses, like the Guelph General

6:16Hospital. The site is currently zoned P3-1, which is a specialized community park zone,

6:28which permits a range of recreational uses. The purpose of the proposed zoning bylaw amendment

6:33is to change the zoning to an R4D specialized infill apartment zone to permit the conversion

6:40of the existing building for use as transitional housing. Specialized zoning has been requested to

6:53add transitional housing as a use for the site, as well as to allow the site potentially to be

6:59used as an emergency shelter or as a daycare. The following specialized regulations have also

7:05been requested. A minimum lot frontage of 12.6 meters where 15 meters is required, a maximum

7:13front yard setback of 42 meters where 6 meters is required, a minimum rear yard of 2 meters,

7:21where a minimum of half the building height or 7.5 meters is required, to permit parking in the

7:28front yard where no parking is permitted in the standard zone, and to permit 36 beds for transitional

7:35housing or an emergency shelter where the zoning bylaw permits emergency shelters to have up to 16

7:42beds. The applicant is proposed to convert the existing building into transitional housing,

7:51which they've defined as housing that is an intermediate step between an emergency crisis

7:56shelter and permanent housing. Transitional housing is intended to support time-limited stays

8:03of three months to three years and establishes a safe supportive environment where residents can

8:09begin to rebuild their support network with services including but not limited to counseling,

8:14job training, and placement, community activities, and help with life skills.

8:20The existing two-story building is proposed to contain 36 suites or bedrooms together with

8:25shared living spaces, kitchens, and washrooms as well as contain office space. The exterior of

8:35the building is planned to remain unchanged except for the addition of an accessibility ramp

8:40and two fire escape stairs on the other side of the building. The parking area is proposed to

8:48remain unchanged as well and contains 41 parking spaces along the north side of the site.

8:55Staff will review the following issues regarding the proposal including conformity and consistency

9:01with the 2020 provincial policy statement and the growth plan for the greater golden horseshoe,

9:06conformity with the official plan, the proposed zoning including the need for specialized regulations,

9:13the cultural heritage resource impact assessment, how the proposed development addresses applicable

9:19sections of the community energy initiative, and address all comments and issues raised during

9:25the review of the applications. Once the application is reviewed and all issues are addressed, a report

9:31from Planning Services with a recommendation will be considered at a future meeting of council.

9:37We also ask that any interested members of the public that would like to receive further notice

9:42related to this application contact the clerk's department via email at clerks at wealth.ca

9:49or by calling 519-837-5603. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you.

10:04Well thank you very much. We do have a few delegations that have signed up as I originally

10:11stated off the top and so I just wondered if we could get that screen taken down there just

10:17so I could see all of my colleagues for a second. Thank you very much. As I said we have some

10:24delegations that are ready to go off the top. We have a good overview from our staff then of what

10:30to expect in regards to this application so I think I'll move to the delegations right away.

10:36And just before the delegations come I just want everyone to know we did have one delegate

10:42actually contact us to remove themselves from delegating so that's Mark Post,

10:49the director of housing from the county of Wellington and Housing Services.

10:53And that's it. So everyone else is still as listed. And just before I continue with our first

11:05delegations and the rest please just note that tonight we're here to speak about the zoning

11:14issues that are in front of us here moving from one piece of zoning to another one that's the

11:19application that is in front of us here. When it comes to speaking to the actual operations,

11:26the actual daily operations of the site that actually isn't under our realm. It's not in our

11:34arena. That is something that is outside of the scope that we're here to discuss tonight. And

11:40actually when it comes to any type of housing, social housing, transitional housing as is listed,

11:48anything like that is actually housed, if I could use that word, under the county. The county is the

11:55service provider of our social services. And so those types of questions, those types of comments,

12:05although you may think they are in this arena, it's actually not. It's actually done by the county

12:13through social services. And that is where those types of comments and or questions should be

12:20relayed to them. The other thing is that as you maybe some have heard me say this before,

12:29we also don't talk about who the potential end user is under this type of a zoning application.

12:36We don't discriminate. There's human rights that we need to uphold. Everyone can have that

12:46right to deserve a place to live. And any type of commentary around that is something that I

12:53strictly as the chair will not allow. And I don't want to be put into a position,

12:58if so, if everyone can work with me here, I don't want to be put into position at all.

13:02It's not why I signed up for this at all to stop delegations. It's not what I want to do.

13:09It's not anything that any of my council colleagues want to have happen either.

13:14We want everyone to maintain focus on the planning issues, the planning justifications

13:21around the application that's in front of us today. So I hope that's clear. And before I go,

13:27I did see a hand go up from Councillor Gibson. Is there a question?

13:32Yeah. Thank you. Through you, Mr. Mayor. I'm not challenging your ruling at all at this point,

13:38by any means. I just wanted to draw a little bit more clarification on this, just because this is

13:46in our agenda, the motion is to permit the reuse of an existing building as transitional housing.

13:52So we are, in essence, approving the rezoning of this building for explicit purposes.

14:00And so people coming today to speak in favour of or against the transitional housing, that type of

14:07dialogue is going to be allowed. So if they come and speak in favour of transitional housing,

14:10I mean, that has to be allowed. It's what the intended use of the building is, correct? So

14:16we're talking about zoning for it, but it is for or against as well, correct? That's part of the

14:22speech that we're going to hear tonight. Okay. Absolutely. That is absolutely in order. It's

14:27the operations of the transitional use that I was trying to highlight that we have, we don't run that.

14:34That's not what the City of Guelph does. And so the particulars of how that is operated is just,

14:41it's out of scope. And we need to make sure that we kind of stay in the lane that we are at,

14:48that we are in. And I just want to acknowledge, before we move forward to all the delegations

14:52and to the public listening, this can be very confusing. I'm with you 100%. Who does what?

14:59This is in Guelph, but someone else does it, but don't we pay for it? All we do, but they

15:04overdo the oversight of it. It can be confusing. I'm with you. And so I'm just trying to just narrow

15:10it down and make it as simple as possible. Actually, you stated it very well, Councillor Gibson,

15:15not voting, but stating in favour or not, that would be absolutely fine. It's definitely embedded

15:21in the agenda item that was in front of us today. Thank you actually for then raising that.

15:27Okay, with that, I hope I've, as clear as mud, laid it out for everybody. We're going to start with

15:33Dave Aston, the applicant on behalf of the applicant, MHBC Planning, Urban Design,

15:40and Landscape Architect. And everyone has no more than 10 minutes. So if you need the 10 minutes,

15:46you absolutely have it. If you don't need the 10 minutes, that's fine. Say what you need to say,

15:50and then just pause for a moment when we're done, because my colleagues or even myself may have a

15:56follow-up question. And so with that, Dave, can you hear me okay? Yes, I can. Great. And we can

16:03hear you fine as well. So thank you for joining me. And I will start the clock right now. Go right

16:10ahead. Great. Thank you and good evening, Mayor Guthrie, members of council. It's nice to see everyone.

16:20And thank you for the clarification on the purpose of the application

16:26with regard to the zoning bylaw and the operation of the facility. And I have been speaking with

16:34Mark Post, the director of housing with the county quite a bit today. We had a lot of discussion

16:42about the comments and the operation of the building. And really, to your point this evening is why it's

16:50me speaking to the applications from the zoning perspective. And what Mark and I discussed earlier

17:00today is we have been receiving all of the comments through city staff. The county's also been receiving

17:08comments specific to the operation. And as part of the next step in the process, as

17:15city staff move forward with their review and responses to residents, to public comments,

17:24and agency comments, we will work with city staff on responding to questions of an operational

17:33nature that are directed and associated with the zoning bylaw amendment. So I just wanted to share

17:40that tonight that there is some information related and we'll be certain to follow up with

17:48the city staff through the process. Also want to thank city staff. I want to thank Katie for

17:55all of her hard work in bringing this forward. Staff have been very willing to work with us and

18:03timely in the responses. And it's just been great to have them support us through this process to

18:12date. And we look forward to working with them in the future. This application for transitional

18:18housing really is another key component in supporting the homelessness strategy. And it's

18:26providing and achieving an important step in the housing continuum for the city and the county.

18:34Transitional housing itself will provide housing for

18:40people for up to the 36 units for a time period of three months to three years.

18:48So this provides that transition that we are speaking to in the definition from that emergency

18:55and a crisis element to the point where there's opportunity for people to access permanent housing.

19:03The approach to the transitional housing is one that has been proven to be very successful

19:11as it provides a security for the residents and really has an amazing impact on their health

19:19and wellness as it creates that sense of place to allow people to plan for get the required,

19:33get the necessary support to move forward with the next step in the housing continuum.

19:39So the zoning proposed as mentioned by staff is P3 to R4D. And we will have the specialized

19:46provisions associated with the definition of transitional housing. I just want to point out

19:52the list of the regulations or site specific provisions that that were listed are a reflection

19:59of the existing building. There's no changes that are being proposed in the zoning bylaw.

20:07It really is picking up on the existing conditions of the building in relation to the

20:14regulations of the R4 zone. So we needed to make sure that the zoning was picked up accordingly

20:21so it didn't put itself into a non-conforming scenario should the R4D zoning be approved.

20:30There's no change proposed to the open space areas and the existing parking will remain.

20:36As mentioned by staff, the improvements that are proposed are to make the building more accessible

20:41and to provide fire safety updates. The primary objective of the zoning is to facilitate the

20:48transitional housing that has the funding. The additional uses that are proposed would provide

20:57longer-term flexibility for uses on the lands for the county to provide potential services in

21:04the future. So really the proposed use of these lands and community investment in this project

21:14will complement ongoing work to support community partners to deliver a housing program to those

21:21experiencing homelessness. So this type of housing as all our awareness greatly needed

21:28to provide the support and stability for vulnerable households to succeed

21:33when permanent housing can be accessed. In our opinion provincial policy, city policy,

21:45that direction is supporting the zoning bylaw amendment for transitional housing on the lands.

21:53As all of those policies recognize the importance of providing all range of houses to support all

21:59needs in communities. This proposal will also support the housing and homelessness plan

22:07that has been prepared and the objectives of the mayor's task force on homelessness and community

22:14safety. So we're here to respond to any questions this evening with regard to the zoning. Some

22:23some questions with regard to the operation I may be able to respond to others. I may just have to

22:29take notes and we can be you can be sure that we'll follow up and any clarifications or additional

22:40information that would be required. We will coordinate with staff and ensure that's addressed

22:45as part of the next report and presentation to council. Now with that thank you for the

22:51opportunity this evening and open to any questions. Great thank you so much Dave and there's a few

23:01hands that have gone up. So if you could just stay on the line I'm going to start with Councillor

23:05Gordon and then Gowler and then or Rourke and now I'm getting my pen and then I'm in offline.

23:14Try to remember that. Go ahead Councillor Gordon. Thank you Mr. Mayor and thank you Mr. Aston for

23:20your presentation. It's to plan the way you your presentation which was much appreciated

23:29as has been reiterated by the mayor and you yourself mentioned there is a question about the

23:37process for neighbors and interested people in this issue having their concerns addressed and

23:47their voices heard. When you say that you'll be looking at all these commentary and responding

23:55I wonder if you could get a little more specific or if you know the answer as to what that would

23:59look like so that Councillor Goller and I especially can direct any comments that are of an operational

24:09nature towards the county. Is there going to be an event or is it just responded individually or

24:18if you can comment on that that would be helpful thank you.

24:24To you Mayor I got through to Councillor Gordon. Thanks for the question and I appreciate

24:30the confusion in the system and the process here. I would say a couple of things will happen.

24:38We will work on a comment and response table document as it relates to the zoning matters

24:49and we will make sure that that is part of comments following this meeting and we'll provide that to

24:58city staff so that's something that that can be available. I can follow up with Mark post at the

25:08county with regard to other means of consultation it's something that we were talking about today

25:17and communication that the county is working on so we can certainly make sure that that's also

25:24something that that is available and that people know how to and where to ask their questions or

25:32share their comments. So those are two thoughts right away and again happy to receive any other

25:41thoughts or comments and coordinate with staff on how best to communicate with the public and have

25:49clarification or questions answered. Terrific thank you I'll just conclude by a

25:54I don't know if I've thought around this. The timing is kind of crucial too around these responses

26:01and the public engagement. There's a chicken and egg problem that we've already discovered in

26:07applications such as this when for a community to offer their support for a zoning change

26:15it's hard for them to separate that support for what there all the unknowns there are

26:25those other matters such as how it's going to operate what what's the staffing level like what

26:31what does it look like what is the impacts on the neighborhood so I don't envy your the county's

26:38task in this but I presume then that it will be these this intercom will be hand in hand as we move

26:49forward towards approval or disapproval of the zoning application. Through you Mayor Guthrie

26:59a councillor Gordon go ahead yes that's we we will certainly we understand the importance of timing

27:07in fact there's obviously a timing matter associated with the county and the need to

27:15get the approval for the zoning and to have that in place associated with the funding for the project

27:23so we'll be certain to respond in a timely fashion and and make sure we're reaching out to the

27:30community as quickly as possible. Thank you very much thank you Councillor Gordon I think that's

27:40you know I'm glad that you kind of broach that question first I think it sort of sets the stage

27:45for everyone delegating but also sets the stage for anyone listening in on on the topic tonight

27:51as well so I appreciate you you asking that Councillor Gull are you're next then or Roark and

27:56then Hotlin. Thank you and through your worship Mr. Asson thank you very much for your presentation

28:04I want to go back to something that that wasn't clear for me in the documents there's mentioned

28:10that this could be an emergency shelter or transitional housing so I just wanted to to be

28:15clear could this be the potential use be emergency shelter as well or would it only be

28:22transitional housing. Through Mayor Guthrie to the Councillor the the intent here for the project

28:34is that it will be transitional housing again the other uses emergency shelter the daycare those

28:42are there as longer term flexible uses for the county in the event that something didn't proceed

28:52as planned with the transitional housing but the zoning and why we're bringing forward the

28:57site specific for the transitional housing and being very specific about it is because that is

29:04the full intent of of the project. Okay okay thank you very much for that and part of the

29:12the reason why I ask is that we currently it's my understanding we have a limit of 16 residents for

29:19emergency shelter in any given location but this would be for 36 people under transitional housing

29:27so I just wanted to know if could it be that we approve this and in the county instead of opening

29:33emergency shelter for 36 people so that's that was my confusion and I don't know if it's something

29:40that that you have discussed or that if it does end up being an emergency shelter then it would not

29:45be all 36 units that are used it would be 16 I don't know if that's something that you have been

29:50discussing or thinking about. Through Mayor Guthrie to the Councillor should the city approve

29:58this zoning the use will be the transitional housing for the up up to the 36 suites.

30:09Okay if the city doesn't approve it we may be having a different discussion with

30:14the with city staff on the bylaw but our focus and primary objective is the transitional housing.

30:23Okay thank you very much for that and my second question we have recently approved permanent

30:30supportive housing at on Maryland Drive and that is going to be I mean it feels like a similar

30:38project but that was named permanent supportive housing with 24-hour staffing I just wanted to

30:43understand the difference between that and transitional housing I mean will there also be

30:4924 hours I think is it the same thing different name or is it is there a difference?

30:59Through Mayor Guthrie my understanding is transitional housing is really a step

31:07from supportive housing so it provides a transitional period I'm not too certain on

31:16on how all the definitions work but that's my understanding and discussion with the county

31:21and the objective of providing this type of housing and yes the staff on site 24 hours

31:34and I think those are the two questions. Yes thank you thank you very much for that

31:42now the next question you I had a few questions about the green space but you actually

31:47headed them off you mentioned that we were not going to be losing the green space and that

31:51all of the the special requirements were to accommodate the building as is so I wanted to

31:58fall up with the use of the green space currently it has been used by the neighbors as a park for

32:03kids is the intention that the public would still have access to some of the green space

32:09that is in the property or would that then be closed off to be used for the residents not for

32:15the public anymore? Through Mayor Guthrie this is one of those questions where I think I'll

32:23need to follow up and clarify we haven't really had much discussion about that green space

32:34but I will get some answers on that and if that is to change it all. Okay thank you very much I

32:41would really appreciate that because many of the residents in the area really like that that green

32:47space now with regards to the building itself it is an older building with many heritage aspects

32:55do you foresee any of the renovations having an impact on the heritage aspects of the building

33:01and in particular I don't know what the the inside of the building is in terms of heritage

33:06designation but is the intention to to maintain intact the historical aspects of the building?

33:17Through Mayor Guthrie the application was submitted with the heritage impact assessment

33:24and the heritage impact assessment has provided some some recommendations and considerations

33:30associated with the building but there's been no impacts identified with the proposed renovations

33:38in the heritage impact assessment. Okay thank you very much I appreciate that

33:45the current clarity and lastly I would just go back to what Councillor Gordon mentioned in terms of

33:51the the community engagement I would invite you and the county to perhaps join Councillor Gordon

33:59myself on a town hall so the residents will call in so I'll follow up with you offline but it would

34:04be lovely we could have a conversation where where these questions could be answered to the public

34:10rather than just going back and forth on paper I think that people would appreciate having a

34:14conversation those are my questions for worship. Okay thank you thank you very much I got Councillor

34:26Orohrke and then Hoffman please. Thank you Mr. Mayor I just wanted to give Mr. Aston an opportunity

34:35to answer some of the questions that we got in the correspondence so one my first question is

34:40really clarification of something you mentioned you said this is transitional housing for vulnerable

34:45households but who do you think you know are you looking at single people or are you looking at

34:51families and the the reason I'm asking to kind of project it for us is related to the amenity

34:59space and staffing space. If you may I got three to the Councillor a good question as I did mention

35:08that I would make reference to households this again in discussion with Mark Post this afternoon

35:16and thinking about what the use primarily given the single occupant units the intent is to address

35:32kind of homelessness homelessness associated with

35:36single people so it at this point is not designed

35:49or being considered to accommodate families or parents and children so that's the current

35:59focus of the transitional housing. Okay that's helpful so then my next questions

36:07are regarding the amenity space so a number of people have written in to say they're concerned

36:12there doesn't appear to be considerable shared amenity space I'm just wondering

36:19how you respond to that concern. I think that to you Mayor I got three the

36:26the county is working through the programming of the building associated with the amenity space and

36:33what may be internal and with regard to external space just generally a recognition of the open

36:43space areas surrounding the property and the ability to access those those park and open space areas.

36:55Okay and then my last question is there's a number of concerns that there doesn't seem to be

37:02staffing or space for offices or counseling or any of the services that might be required

37:08in the plan and I'm just wondering why that might be and whether those would be included in

37:14the next iteration of your plan. Through you Mayor I got three yes I saw those comments and again

37:21yes the county is still working through what I call the internal programming of the building

37:28and that's something that that they're addressing and designing in in context of the layout of the

37:36internal portions of the building and we can provide some additional follow-up in the future.

37:42I think back to the general comments you know I fully appreciate people wanting to understand

37:52the operation elements of the building and those will be provided as the county sees

37:59necessary to operate the proposed use so we'll we'll share with information we have but that

38:06you know could evolve as the county continues to move forward with the internal design so

38:13our focus is to get the zoning in in place so that the funding gets into place and then we work

38:21continue to work through those details. Okay thank you very much. Thank you and yes over to

38:31Councillor Hofflin. Thank you very much go ahead. Good evening Mr. Aston. So my questions aren't

38:40operational in nature but they're one of our favorite topics and that's parking. In the staff

38:48report it says the parking area is proposed to remain unchanged and then it goes on to speak

38:55about 41 parking spaces. In the specialized regulations it says it notes that to permit

39:04parking in the front yard where no parking is permitted in the front yard so can you help me

39:11put those two clauses together I'm a bit confused about is there parking or there isn't parking?

39:18Sure a few mayor got through to the Councillor. Currently the way the bylaw is set up so as we

39:26move to the R4D zone and then the general regulations of the bylaw it it has regulations

39:35associated where you can and can't have parking on the site. Right now the parking on the site

39:42is in the front yard setback so we have to make sure that that regulation recognizes that there

39:51is parking in the front yard setback so that that's acknowledged as existing parking and doesn't

39:58become a non-conforming parking. So it's really just a housekeeping matter then. Thank you very

40:06much Dave. Dave that looks like it's it from council so we appreciate your time tonight thank

40:15you very much and thank you for addressing right off the top the the willingness on yourself and

40:23the applicant to continue to engage with the community on either some outstanding questions

40:30or especially around the operational side of it so thank you very much. Thanks Mayor Guthrie and I

40:36would say as I was speaking here I did get information from Mark Post that if there's

40:42any detailed questions on the operation that residents or members of the public can reach out

40:50to Mark and he'll respond as best that he can so I just want people to know that it can reach out

41:00directly to the county and if there's comments on the zoning I'm I know that

41:06city staff are still available to receive comments and and we'll work with staff as needed to provide

41:13responses so thank you very much. Great thanks again for that clarity appreciate it have a

41:19good night okay. Thank you. Thank you okay so next on my list is Susan Watson because Mark

41:28is not delegating so next on the list is Susan Watson Susan can you hear me okay? I can can you hear me?

41:34Yep coming through just fine thank you for joining us and I will start the the clock for you right now

41:41go right ahead. Great I just wanted to start by saying that I copied council on an email I sent

41:51with an inquiry about proceeds from the sale in Parkland and I did receive a response from Mr. Cooper

41:59which I just forwarded to all members of council I apologize for doing it not doing that earlier

42:05but I hadn't realized council hadn't been copied. Mr. Cooper said in the email whereas the building

42:12on the above reference property is the subject of the conditional sale the city will be retaining

42:18ownership of the usable parkland space on the property beyond the building and the parking lot

42:25so that's some additional information that other delegates weren't able to answer but I understand

42:31it looks like there's going to be a severance and that parkland will be some parkland will be

42:36retained by the city so that it's in your inbox right now so I would like to speak in favor of

42:43the proposed zoning bylaw amendment amendment to allow for transitional housing at the 65 Delhi

42:50Street site and before I do so there are a couple of community concerns I would like to recognize.

42:58This building served for 40 years as a location for summer camps recreation and arts programming

43:05I remember taking my now six foot five 21 year old son to 65 Delhi for dance classes when he was

43:12three it was closed in 2008 because it was deemed inefficient to operate as a community center

43:20I recognize that this was a loss not just to the immediate neighborhood but to the downtown as a whole

43:27outside of library programming if downtown residents want to access recreational offerings

43:32we need to travel significant distances either by car or transit financially it might have been an

43:39efficient decision to close 65 Delhi but from a community cohesion and carbon footprint perspective

43:46not so much as Mary Guthrie said at the beginning of this meeting who is going to live where is

43:53off the table with zoning discussion but a clear ask I see coming from the neighborhood

43:58and that the county needs to be attentive to is that the needed support for transitional housing

44:04be put in place and I actually don't see any difference on this point with people who are

44:10championing the project I think many leaders in our community need to be commended for the

44:16emergency housing that was put in place early in the pandemic at Loyola house when we were asked to

44:22stay at home this gave marginalized people a place to be at home a lesson the pandemic taught us is

44:29that we are all connected the wider community cannot be safe if any one of us is unsafe as a

44:38congregate living setting Loyola house was prioritized for early vaccination the success of this

44:45initiative and the implications for our community standing in stark contrast to the rash of alarming

44:52COVID-19 outbreaks in the Toronto shelter system and the proliferation of tents in campments

45:00now as we look to transitioning out of the pandemic the opportunity presented by the 65

45:05Delhi site to continue the great work established at Loyola house is amazing this location is close

45:12to healthcare grocery stores libraries and downtown services aside from providing dignity and security

45:21for residents supportive housing doesn't just benefit the health of the entire community

45:27it benefits our bottom line home space in Calgary has calculated that supporting housing

45:34housing initiatives in that city have saved 2.5 million dollars of tax money through reduced

45:42costs for hospitalization EMS utilization police interactions emergency room visits

45:49jail time and court appearances on every level I think we should move forward with this project

45:57and now I'd like to pivot to something quite different which is parkland

46:03I was surprised to see that the current zoning of this site is parkland and based on the email

46:08I received from Mr. Cooper my understanding is that part of the property will be severed

46:13and will remain as parkland in possession of the city I'm not sure exactly where things stand in

46:19terms of parkland legislation at the provincial level and our parkland dedication bylaw at the

46:24local level things have been in an extreme state of flux regarding parkland to say the least

46:33under the old legislation whenever parkland was sold the proceeds had to be returned to a

46:38municipality's parkland reserve to be available to be reinvested in new parkland

46:46Matt Saunders parkland analysis which he completed several years ago raised some

46:51serious questions about building footprints being included in our parkland inventory

46:58in our official plan parkland is supposed to be about open space but clearly some quote closed

47:04spaces are inflating our inventory so this zoning change represents a small but potentially

47:12concrete reduction in our parkland if the zoning for this site is altered ahead of its

47:20disposition I still want to see the proceeds through the sale of this building returned

47:26to the city's parkland fund I'll point out that the parkland reserve was rated in the past couple

47:33of years to help pay for the renovations at the Victoria Road Recreation Center while the original

47:39drawdown was supposed to be half a million from the reserve at the end of the day I think it ended

47:43up being closer to something like seven hundred thousand dollars although the relevant information

47:49is no longer available on the city's website parkland cash and lou from the development process

47:56is a sad joke depending on the circumstances and the formulas applied the cash and lou received

48:03can represent maybe the value of one tenth of the parkland needed for the additional population

48:09a given development represents it was perfectly legal to take seven hundred thousand dollars from

48:15the parkland reserve for the rec center renovation but it's not best practice it's not rocket science

48:24if we take cash and lou from developers instead of parkland and then use it on capital expenditures

48:31our population grows but our park infrastructure does not I recognize that given the fact that

48:39there is a real estate transaction under negotiation there is a limit to what can be

48:44discussed in open session of council I support the zoning change amendment being requested

48:50but I ask that council keep a close eye on where the cash from this transaction ends up

48:56I think cash from parkland sales needs to go back to the parkland reserve and I hope you do too

49:03thank you thank you very much is there any follow-up questions seeing none thank you so much

49:13thank you and Jason blockhouse Jason can you hear me okay yes can you hear me

49:23I can Jason yes we can hear you fine thank you very much for joining us

49:28oh very good very good I I had hoped to participate by video and I even put on a pie but it's not

49:34working so oh here we go my phone oh sorry about that did you do we have a video for for it's okay

49:44don't worry about it the phone you can hear me we can hear you and we think your tie is great I'm

49:48sure it's just fine let me let me just restart the clock and thanks for joining us Jason you go

49:55right ahead okay thank you mayor Guthrie I'd like to use my 10 minutes this evening to talk about

50:01ethics and parking or maybe the ethics of parking but either way I hope you'll hear me out

50:08back in 2013 Robert Eilers of the stirrup acquired the magnificent four-story building at 55 del high

50:15street you were there at the grand opening it was built in 1910 as the foresight head burn home for

50:22nurses working at the wealth general hospital and served for many years as the headquarters of

50:27family and children services Robert poured billions into restoring that property which is now home to

50:33the number of health and well-being professionals there's a daycare in the basement there's an

50:37advertising firm on the third floor and our neighborhood group supported Robert's plans and

50:42actually helped to convince the city to sell a piece of land at the rear of 55 del high street

50:48for parking in order to preserve the gardens in the front yard facing del high street itself

50:55and since then I mean it's been eight years now Robert has approached the city every six months

51:00asked about purchasing 65 del high street he's made no secret of his desire to buy that historic

51:06property which as has already been stated was built in 1911 it was built as an isolation hospital

51:13during the last pandemic as it happened and it was used for many years as Susan points out as

51:19del high street recreation center our neighborhood supported and still supports Robert's wish to

51:25acquire 65 del high street knowing that he would do the same kind of restoration work with 65 that

51:32he did with 55 and that these two properties could be the crown jewels not only of his portfolio but

51:40but of our neighborhood both 55 and 65 del high street sit on some of the most valuable real estate

51:47in town we're purchased the top of moraine overlooking the city opposite the moraine that we call

51:52Catholic Hill I'd like to go into some detail about how much it would cost to redevelop 65

51:59del high street for the purposes proposed this evening but that would take me too far from

52:05parking which is what I said I would talk about still let me know Robert says it would take at

52:11least three and a half million dollars to remediate the building at 65 del high street and he says it

52:17would cost far less than that to construct something brand new something purpose built

52:22for transitional housing something with the space for and a layout that's actually designed to deliver

52:28wraparound services that residents would need Robert like everyone else in the neighborhood

52:35has been effectively held hostage for years by one thing and that's the thing I want to

52:40talk about tonight that hospital parking at 65 del high street would seem as though there have

52:47only ever been a limited number of options for the property because neither the city nor the

52:52hospital wanted to give up their arrangements for the 41 parking spaces which are used by

52:58rented by hospital staff so I'm assuming that part of the reason the city has declined to sell

53:0765 del high to Robert he's less than eight years he's a willing buyer with neighborhood support

53:12but it must have something to do with that like parking arrangement and over the years we've seen

53:18at 65 del high street only sort of uses sporadic uses brief periods of time all of which do not

53:25into have not interfered with the parking so it's been used as a as an EMS hub emergency medical

53:31services recently as a COVID testing center as youth housing and as a storage facility for

53:38parking mirrors the building has so much potential but it's more or less it seems kind of an afterthought

53:45or an adjunct or a hostage to the parking spaces to hide at those 41 spaces the proposal suggests

53:53that these parking spaces will be sold to the county but it's not clear whether they will be

53:58used or whether they'll be leased back to the hospital again and I wonder I mean do people in

54:03transitional housing need parking spaces yesterday morning I took my my measuring tape here and I

54:11went out behind 55 del high street and I measured those parking spaces they measure 17 feet long

54:20by 19 five 17 by 9 that's the standard parking space all 41 of them 17 by 9 and that's really

54:28interesting to me because the transitional housing units proposed for this property measure 18 feet

54:35seven inches in length by nine feet six inches in width the 30 quote unquote standard suite and

54:44you've seen this 14 14 feet in length by nine feet six inches in width for the six quote unquote small

54:52suite and this should really hit home okay you heard right 30 of the so-called suites are the same

55:01size as a parking space and six of these weeks are smaller than a parking space so these are not

55:08suites they're cells and this is not true this is not transitional housing it's it's warehousing

55:16in our society we do not treat people like ours it dehumanize it it's immoral and I find it hard

55:25to believe that the city is actually considering this okay to let this happen in my view the city

55:33and the county should work together to find a large enough space on which to establish purpose

55:39bills transitional housing with the wraparound supports that presidents will need to stay off

55:47the streets so that the program will serve its purpose its intended purpose and you know if I may

55:53for heaven's sake why not let robert buy the property at 65 delhi street and invest millions

55:59in restoring it with highest and best residential use with our 4a zoning this will add value to the

56:06neighborhood and to the tax base what's proposed here will do the opposite and at the expense

56:13some of the most vulnerable and marginal marginalite members our community that's all I have to say

56:23okay thank you jay I didn't want to interrupt you there so thank you I didn't know you had

56:27come to an end so thank you very much for delegating is there any follow-up questions for jason at all

56:34okay there is none so thank you very much for calling in all right thanks good night have fun bye bye

56:46so we do have our first video feed delegation uh steven killburn

56:51and I wonder if Steven can turn on his uh video there for me there I'm unmuted now correct

57:04correct yep you're we can hear you uh can't see it yet uh one line I can I can see you now

57:12Steven thank you very much for uh for for videoing and calling in so we appreciate it and let me just

57:19reset the clock here um from jason and there you go I will start your timer now and you can go

57:27go right ahead okay thank you thank you very much good evening your worship mayor guthrie

57:33members of council and others attending this meeting through the wonders of technology

57:39as of june 22nd I will have lived next to 65 del high street for 18 years I've seen the use of

57:46the building change over the years I had a daughter attend friday friends meetings there when it was

57:52still the del high street recreation center I have voted there more than once my nieces and

57:58nephews have played in the park on the swings and the playground equipment before they were removed

58:04my neighborhood wants to see this historic structure in use not many years ago as jason

58:10said we work to help good decisions be made on the adaptive reuse of the historic nurses residents

58:16at 55 del high street we know that a used historic building is one that will stay maintained and full

58:22of life we also know that there is an urgent need to help the homeless we want this to happen with

58:30the greatest chance of success transitioning people to homes we are concerned that what is proposed

58:37currently will not serve the people it seeks to help instead warehousing them in tiny rooms

58:43with little of the wraparound support they need we are also concerned that planning elements of

58:48the proposal such as the requested density and mix of uses would not balance the public benefits in

58:54the impacts on the neighborhood we think elements of the proposal must be changed to reduce impacts

59:01and serve the needs of the intended residents and we believe there may be better and more

59:06cost efficient ways to provide transitional housing than the expensive retrofit of a heritage building

59:14we'd like it noted that a proposal to use 65 del high street for transitional housing was made in

59:212010 by wellington wealth drug strategy and other partners it proposed 24 hours staffing by individuals

59:30who could provide structured or ad hoc support for up to 16 residents and meeting space that would

59:37allow a variety of community agencies to deliver services on site the current proposal has departed

59:44far from that vision we think it is not designed for success i'll begin with comments on planning

59:50aspects and then moved on to comments on the site itself preliminary building floor plans and how

59:57these could provide challenges for the proposed use there may be a couple elements that brush up

1:00:02against operational concerns but i understand these as fundamentally being about how these interact

1:00:08with planning permissions the planning justification report seeks to have the property re-zoned as r4d

1:00:18infill apartment zone however the use doesn't conform conform to the official plan definition

1:00:25of infill development which is development on land that has not previously been built on

1:00:31instead it should be zoned r4a general apartment this isn't completely planning nitpicking

1:00:38because the uses are similar but some of the bylaw regulations are different

1:00:44one of the differences is the density requirements for infill developments the planning justification

1:00:50claims that there should be no maximum density requirement for 65 del high street it's a peculiar

1:00:57argument they seem to be saying that because the 36 suites proposed don't have bathrooms or kitchens

1:01:04they aren't apartments so there is no density but an apartment building is defined as a building

1:01:10with three or more apartments this sounds kind of like an urban planning zen cohen what is an

1:01:17apartment building with no apartments the 36 suites should count as apartments that makes the requested

1:01:25density almost double the maximum permitted by the official plan another difference with r4a is

1:01:33there would be a requirement for what is called minimum common amenity area which has been referred

1:01:39to by previous presentations outdoor space to be shared by residents the justification proposes

1:01:46that none be required but if people are being housed in tiny rooms with tight shared kitchen

1:01:52and common areas it seems even more important that they have outdoor space by a rough calculation

1:01:59it looks like the property has enough room for no more than 20 units or so of shared outdoor space

1:02:05not 36 buffer strips are required between r4 zones and others to shield or block noise lights etc

1:02:16almost half the 65 del high street lot abuts low density residential backyards with the building

1:02:2214 meters from the lot line the justification report claims buffer strips can be achieved

1:02:30it looks like a complicated problem the immediate neighbors would like more detail than just this

1:02:35generic assurance the justification report tries to create a definition of the use transitional

1:02:44housing as none exists in the bylaw it bases this on the definition of an emergency shelter

1:02:51but emergency shelters are supposed to be used on a short term infrequent basis transitional

1:02:56housing is defined as being used for three months to three years in the planning justification

1:03:02as hardly short term or infrequent as well it appears that the needs of people using emergency

1:03:09shelter are understood as different than those using transitional housing this needs more careful

1:03:15thinking through the justification report asks that emergency shelter use be permitted as well

1:03:22as transitional housing it's not clear if those uses are compatible it's also not clear whether

1:03:29there'd be any limits on the proportion of emergency shelter beds to transitional housing

1:03:34beds or whether any division would be permitted we were told earlier that these additional uses

1:03:39are for possible future flexibility but if any use is permitted it has to be assumed that it will

1:03:46or could occur in combination with any other permitted use no matter what assurance of

1:03:52assurances have been offered this also needs careful consideration the justification requests

1:03:59a zoning bylaw amendment to permit child care use this sounds like it would be not only for

1:04:06residents but the neighborhood and adjacent hospital too on the surfaces it sounds like a good idea

1:04:12but daycare is not a listed use for r4 it's normally allowed in institutional buildings

1:04:18or single detached residential and even if an exception is made there's no room for daycare

1:04:24with 36 sweet sweets squeezed into the building and there's already an independent daycare at 55

1:04:31delhi street we're not sure this is an appropriate use in combination with the other uses there are

1:04:39site specific concerns the property is legally located on aramosa road even though the address

1:04:45is on delhi street and the planning justification points to there being an intensification corridor

1:04:51on aramosa with grocery shopping drugstores etc that would be of use to the people who would

1:04:57be living in the transitional housing however the only access to the property is to delhi street

1:05:04for pedestrians via a right of way between a residential and institutional building

1:05:10and for vehicles via a right of way that accesses the hospital parking lot from delhi

1:05:15opening up access to aramosa road would be complicated probably impossible for vehicles

1:05:21and very difficult for pedestrians while meeting the ontarians with disabilities act standards

1:05:28putting 36 people and staff in the building day and night and having them squeeze in and out through

1:05:33the rights of way could be a problem i recognize that the preliminary building floor plans are

1:05:41subject to revision but they indicate how space would be divided up if used with 36 suites even

1:05:47divided dividing the rooms smaller than the single rooms at johnson hall at u of g with a few shared

1:05:54washrooms and showers there's next to no room left for anything else staff offices or rooms that could

1:06:00be used for support surfaces and yeah perhaps this is operational but if there's no room for

1:06:07operations perhaps that should be considered the preliminary design has all single rooms sex

1:06:14segregated common areas no apparent provision for pets couples and a small symbolic space for

1:06:21families with children it doesn't look like to us like this will serve diverse needs maybe any roof

1:06:28over your head is better than no roof but months or years in a tiny room in a crowded kind of lodging

1:06:34house when you're struggling to get back on your feet doesn't sound like the best idea

1:06:39reconfiguring the space for fewer people flexibility for people with children or special needs and

1:06:46room for delivery of services would be better and to do to to cable that uh a permission for 36

1:06:56should not be should not be granted this is your 32nd warning okay yes or if there's not if it's not

1:07:03financially viable other options should be explored i've drafted a written response to the planning

1:07:09justification report where i provide a more detailed technical discussion of the comments

1:07:14i've just made i invite council staff and anyone else who's interested to review that thank you

1:07:23thank you very much for your delegation and let me see if there's a follow-up question

1:07:29yes there is from councillor Allt and then councillor gordon please go ahead councillor Allt

1:07:36thank you mayor guthrie i've turned off my video i hope this keeps the sound clear

1:07:41mr. kelvren thank you very much for your presentation but i was a bit confused by a point that you

1:07:48raise i'm not clear whether you are saying that you would prefer a reduced number of residents

1:07:55or no residents at all there was there was an inconsistency early on in your presentation

1:08:02furthermore would you be satisfied with r4a and are you speaking essentially

1:08:10in collaboration with the neighborhood uh or are you just saying that this is not an acceptable

1:08:16use at all and finally one last point and then i'll get off uh one of the things that you you

1:08:21mentioned is the issue of daycare you've given me a good question then i'll follow up with the county

1:08:26because i am fairly certain the suggestion was that daycare would be a consideration at a later

1:08:34point i was wondering if i hope that you can remember all the questions that i just asked

1:08:39i started to take notes after you got to question number three james um if if i have the if i if i

1:08:48have the first question if i caught the first question there um i'm not i am not trying to

1:08:56argue that that the application should be rejected altogether i'm arguing that the density uh the

1:09:05the density requested is too high um from a planning perspective and it's like i didn't want to get

1:09:14into the planning geek speak so i left that alone but essentially it it isn't it doesn't conform

1:09:21with with the low density residential um status in the official plan and i and i believe if it

1:09:31were granted that the the density of use would have an adverse impact on the abutting the abutting

1:09:42uses and that's that's why i'm arguing it should be reduced that's number one um

1:09:50there was something about acceptable use clear question number two the the issue of daycare

1:09:56because i understood daycare would be a consideration down the road from what i heard from the

1:10:02presentation earlier it's it's my concern here really is is that it's um the the request the

1:10:14mix of use and the the it's kind of as if the request is for a blank check well we want to do

1:10:22this but we're saying that if we won't we can't do this maybe we'll do this other thing or maybe

1:10:28we'll salt in this other thing or maybe we'll do them all together and that's not good enough

1:10:32from a planning perspective if you permit the use you have to understand that the use may occur so

1:10:40you know is it the one is it the other um is it all three uh it it's it's it's a it's a peculiar

1:10:51sort of ask and and i don't know whether the the there there's a difference between use by the way

1:10:57and zoning which i absolutely did not want to touch in my comments so that's that's buried in the

1:11:04the written submission i i gave but um you have three alternate uses requested for something that

1:11:15that is zoned well r4d but it really shouldn't be r4d because it isn't infill development it's

1:11:22so it really should be r4a and and i'm suggesting that planning staff should be thinking about

1:11:31whether those uses are all compatible and if they aren't perhaps uh use some of the uses

1:11:40should be granted and not others thank you very much i will follow up with planning albeit likely

1:11:48thank you thank you and uh counselor james gordon i think your your uh your hand was up next there

1:11:58thank you very much mr mayor uh very quick short question thank you for your presentation

1:12:03mr killborn i uh we we appreciated your written comments as well my question is will you be passing

1:12:12that document on to the housing director at the county of wellington i think that's where

1:12:21yeah i would be pleased to do so i i'd i'd expect that anything that was shared in this public

1:12:27forum because it because it has been um submitted as a written document would be available but if

1:12:34if my understanding is incorrect i i would be more than happy to pass that on yeah i think uh i'm

1:12:41sure that the county is aware of your report if it was sent directly uh to the source i got

1:12:49that seems the most appropriate way to get some answers and and i think your award to counselors

1:12:55would appreciate you keeping us the loop in the loop as to what we get to thank you thank you

1:13:05thanks again for your delegation we do appreciate it and so have have yourself a good rest of the

1:13:10night okay thank you mayor guthrie thank you okay our next is gail hookstra

1:13:18gail can you hear me okay yes i can hear you gail good okay thank you for uh thank you for

1:13:25calling in and let me just hold on one second that's got to make sure i start the timer if you

1:13:31need your 10 minutes it starts right now go right ahead okay good evening mayor guthrie and members

1:13:36of council i just want to take a few minutes tonight to touch on our experience at the drop

1:13:41in center and providing 24 hour supported shelter over this last year just for the sake of this

1:13:47conversation and the proposed uh intended use of an emergency shelter slash transitional housing

1:13:54site at 65 gal high over this last year we've had opportunities to grow and learn a lot towards

1:14:01doing a better job for our community members that are homeless and especially for those that

1:14:06have been homeless for months or more often years we have moved from providing only one

1:14:12shelter model for this particular group into creating different shelter options to match

1:14:17individuals pathway to housing stability the first thing we've done is create emergency

1:14:23shelter at the drop in center which meets the needs for individuals that are homeless to have a

1:14:27place to rest get food and shower on any night that they are interested just by showing up

1:14:34secondly we have had the 24 seven supported shelter site initially at the holiday and more

1:14:41recently at the yola house uh which is the model we hopefully can move to 65 del high street this

1:14:48is a shelter that individuals is interested can stay for a longer period of time and receive

1:14:54along with 24 seven shelter support also mental health addiction and medical health support

1:15:00and all of these supports are driven from a building relationship with each person

1:15:07we've seen the greatest improvement in people's lives that the 24 seven supported

1:15:12shelter model of care people are given the space the time the support to move towards

1:15:18health and housing stability people many of you know on this call because you've seen very

1:15:24ill individuals downtown or in our parks or in our public settings that were very unwell over

1:15:30the last years are thriving and stable and healthy and now are ready for permanent housing options

1:15:37I know there have been comments about matching of emergency shelter and transitional housing in

1:15:43regards to the zoning application what might be helpful for people to know is that individuals

1:15:48that have been homeless for a long period of time may need shelter for a night for three months or for

1:15:54one year it all depends on the individual and what they need in that moment to move forward in their

1:16:00health and stability this zoning would encompass both the emergency shelter and transitional housing

1:16:07which allows the length of stay to be dependent on the individual need but the goal would always be

1:16:13to move from this site as a shelter or transitional housing into permanent housing

1:16:21I've read some comments about the size of the amenity space and office space being too small

1:16:26in reality offices are not what's most critical it's that staff move around the site and build

1:16:32relationships with everyone this is done through conversations and hallway room connections

1:16:38outdoor visits for the most part although some offices for private health important

1:16:44appointments are important to access when needed the amount of offices is not the driver of an

1:16:50improved outcome for individuals as a community we have found that having this 24 7 supported

1:16:58shelter slash transitional housing site has been so beneficial to individuals and it's been

1:17:03amazing learning experience over this past year how to do better and I hope this project can move

1:17:09forward in the first step of the zoning process and we will be a better community for it I'm

1:17:14going to speak a bit out of turn and wish for the approval for the zone change for our partners at

1:17:19Kendall tonight too so good luck to that thank you okay thank you very much you did sneak that in

1:17:29there I was about to cut you off but you only got one sentence in so all right um thank you uh

1:17:36gail let me see if there's a question uh as a follow-up and I don't I don't see any or hear

1:17:41any so thank you very much for joining us tonight okay thank you thank you have a good night okay bye

1:17:48bye bye okay I've just told been told that our next um delicate is is our next delegate

1:17:57actually off the list then are you aware or go to Susan now okay so Susan can you hear me okay

1:18:08yes yes I can great we can hear you perfectly fine thank you for calling in and we appreciate it

1:18:15and uh let me just stop the the clock here and uh I'll start the timer right now for you can go

1:18:21right ahead okay thank you Mayor Guthrie and counselors for this opportunity to speak to

1:18:27this project I have lived in the Wolffond neighborhood for 34 years I raised three children here

1:18:35my husband and I attended yoga classes up at 65 Delhi and one of our sons went to the daycare there

1:18:42so I'm very familiar with the building in the area I currently live on King Street but have also lived

1:18:48on Dairy Street as well so very close to this project site I've seen a lot of programs programs come

1:18:54and go and I must admit that it doesn't feel as safe here in the neighborhood as it once did

1:19:01I love this neighborhood and it's always been so welcoming and I'm also not naive enough to think

1:19:06that there is going to be some sort of change of course as the city grows and changes there's

1:19:12some important issues that I think myself and our neighborhood has been experiencing in recent years

1:19:18particularly to do with with crime and and drug use in the city and we're so close to the downtown

1:19:24area that we do experience a lot of this I won't go into details about that now because of the time

1:19:29limit but it's it is a concern and it is perhaps somewhat related to this project there is the

1:19:35potential for an increase in some of these issues in connection with this project and there are some

1:19:40important statistics that I feel that we will need to dive into at some point for example

1:19:45what percentage of those in Guelph are homeless and also struggle with recurring and complex

1:19:54addiction or mental health issues what percentage also have issues or history with crime and what

1:20:02percentage are dealing with unemployment it'd be nice to have those numbers right up front

1:20:08there are also questions that we feel you know that I feel and and I think many of my neighbors

1:20:13feel need to be answered what percentage of people with these additional issues will be housed at

1:20:19Delhi are there planners going to ask them what services they need and want for success

1:20:28why would people from all over Wellington County want to come and live in our neighborhood

1:20:33will the county be contributing ongoing funds for 24-hour staffing social services garbage pickup

1:20:39and grounds maintenance what specific communities would be sending people to this site

1:20:46I also just as a little add-in as I was listening to other presenters it does feel a little bit

1:20:52odd and it's maybe just because I don't understand but it seems a little odd that many of our

1:20:56questions are being directed to Wellington County as opposed to our our local experts that's

1:21:05something that's crossed my mind it feels a little bit far far away from our neighborhood

1:21:12so what specific communities would be sending people to this site and how would people be

1:21:16identified as homeless and who would do this would there be certain categories of homelessness

1:21:22supported here and not others would there be expectations for receiving a unit for example

1:21:29and and and again I mean not saying that anything should be regimented of course not

1:21:35but you know would they be receiving counseling would there be the expectation of zero tolerance

1:21:40for drugs and alcohol would a resident stay have a time limit if there isn't an improvement in

1:21:46addiction or mental health status I mean hopefully there would be but what if I think we need to

1:21:51consider that as well and and be aware of that how would evictions work if there were any real

1:21:57troublesome issues arriving like so yeah I've stopped the clock just you know it's

1:22:02Mary Guthrie speaking I've stopped the clock just to maintain your your full delegation

1:22:07I've let it go for about three and a half minutes here and I just I just want to caution you

1:22:12that so far all I'm hearing is about the end potential user

1:22:19loose connection to criminal activity who are these people going to be who's vetting them

1:22:26and and that's not what we're here about tonight from a particular zoning issue about the end user

1:22:32or the operations and I know it's as you write as you rightly said I don't disagree

1:22:38that it can be confusing about who who does what but I tried to be really clear about that at the

1:22:43beginning I'm wondering if I could start the clock again and still give you your full time

1:22:47but if you could just if I can respond to that um no that wasn't clear until no just one just one

1:22:54second sorry I'm almost done I'm almost done for you uh if if you could just try to keep it clear to

1:22:59the the zoning issues that are at hand and and although it may not have been clear up front I

1:23:04did try to make it very clear before the delegation started I am restating how it to be clear now with

1:23:10you and so I'm going to pause here I I'm not as I said I'm not taking away any of your time

1:23:17but I do I do want you just to just for you to even pause just for a second just to rethink

1:23:22in your last six minutes here or whatever about how you can speak to the to the zoning issues at

1:23:27hand and not the not the full out operational part or or trying to define some of the people that may

1:23:34be living there and with that I'll I'll start your timing again and I do appreciate you letting me

1:23:40jump in I don't like to do it I really don't but I I do hope that we can take the rest of your

1:23:45delegation to just try to match the zoning kind of journey that we're on here and stay stay stay

1:23:51the course on that okay go right ahead okay thank you yeah it was unclear to me beforehand

1:23:58and so my apologies for that but these are certainly maybe questions that we will need

1:24:06to address in the in the future so trying to stick with my comments that I planned

1:24:13and I guess one of the things is that has been mentioned is that the services for people are

1:24:21quite close so like the the hospital is very close the home would health centers close the

1:24:27Ontario Diction Treatment Centers close the safe injection site they're all within you know

1:24:32600 to 800 900 meters walking distance also the 14 bed emergency youth shelter over on

1:24:40Norwich is sort of on the other side of our neighborhood and our neighborhood has really

1:24:45had a long history of being supportive and inclusive but at the same time in terms of I guess you

1:24:52know from a perspective of zoning by rezoning this building it feels like we're going to be a little

1:24:57bit surrounded and again I'm not for or against this this project I think there's a real need for

1:25:06this and it would really really benefit the whole community at a large and our neighborhood as well

1:25:14so but it has to be done it has to be done properly I think that's really really important

1:25:21and I'm just sort of scanning through my notes here just trying to adapt to

1:25:27what I did not realize take your time you have five minutes left you're doing just fine

1:25:37okay so don't feel any pressure on my end at all okay keep keep going you have your full time

1:25:43yeah many of the things that I mentioned about like the length of stay and things like that

1:25:47are the things that I had planned for length of stay have already been you know flushed out

1:25:53really well we definitely you know wouldn't want things to be a revolving door kind of model and

1:25:58I think that's been addressed really well we're a little concerned about the high density for sure

1:26:04and that's been mentioned as well a little bit worried about the potential and you know

1:26:11forgive me for this the statement but the little bit of the potential for high drama

1:26:15the possibility of that and again you know if it's set up well with the involvement of

1:26:23Leola house and with the drop-in center and other services that are already assisting the

1:26:30homeless in our community then there's no reason why it can't be a success with with

1:26:36stated changes for sure I think our community would be really interested in you know if if

1:26:45transitional housing does come to our neighborhood we do have a history of involving all different

1:26:53people from all walks of life and we did have a group home on Dairy Street for many years

1:27:00that only you know had a few issues but for the most part it was well integrated into the community

1:27:06and as well with the youth shelter up on Norwich street you know again I think the neighborhood

1:27:14has been very accepting and and that's you know that's gone fairly well not without some issues but

1:27:23but but I think the neighborhood has coped really well with that we would you know consider things

1:27:30like inviting residents to get involved in and maintaining the perennial garden in the park

1:27:35Wolf on Park we could invite them to our our potlucks we have a lot of potlucks in the park we have

1:27:41skate parties in the winter time we have earth day celebrations and you know including the

1:27:48residents there would be I think beneficial and very helpful for them to be integrating into

1:27:54the neighborhood in the community I'm I just want to say I'm not a proponent of not in my backyard

1:28:01but with this plan as we're seeing it so far I feel it is justified to say maybe not even more

1:28:09in my backyard so it's a really complex issue there's definitely a lot more information that

1:28:16everybody's needing that that you know can't be fixed obviously tonight and just on one final note

1:28:25our neighborhood really misses the community space for sure and that's been mentioned as well

1:28:30perhaps we could look at something like a community space for seniors and others to gather to have

1:28:35coffee and conversation games educational and cultural events which I think are really really

1:28:40important as well we could use a child care center again an art center or a cultural center in a

1:28:46space for teens to play basketball and other after-school activities this is what the Delhye

1:28:51Recreation Center was and what it provided before it was shut down and with some funding and renovations

1:28:58it could again be a beautiful welcoming community hub for all and everyone including those that are

1:29:04currently coping with homelessness so thank you very much great thank you thank you Susan and

1:29:12thank you again I want you to know very authentically I don't like jumping in and so

1:29:19I really appreciate it and I want to confirm that some of the things that you said that

1:29:23you're looking for answers or those in your neighborhood are looking for answers

1:29:27rightly so rightly so and there's an avenue for that through to the county for sure and so I want

1:29:32I don't want to downplay that at all um and was it was it you Susan that said did you take dance

1:29:39lessons there or something is that what did you say you did yoga yoga yeah there was yoga classes

1:29:44and you know that was a previous use that's right yeah and um I am I doubt very much that it'll be

1:29:53going back to a recreation center but well let me tell you I know the I know the building well and

1:29:58it has been very integrated into the neighborhood in the past absolutely absolutely before I go to

1:30:04Councillor Gordon who had his hand up here for you I will openly admit that I went to summer camp

1:30:09there and I took calligraphy camp for a few years so my my penmanship is quite good you'll be very

1:30:15impressed with my calligraphy skills let me go to Councillor Gordon he is a question for you thank you

1:30:22very much Mayor Guthrie and yes my kids took pottery there and I still have some misshapen amorphous

1:30:29blobs of clay on my mantelpiece that they made um Susan I appreciated your your comments um

1:30:38I want to ask you a question that may help to clarify the situation you mentioned that you were

1:30:45kind of concerned that the county seems far away and why would we be bringing people in

1:30:52from outside are you aware that the county is actually our official designated provider

1:31:00for this count kind of housing and that they are not a separate geographical entity it's a level of

1:31:06government that is different from ours their headquarters are just a couple of blocks from you

1:31:11on Willett Street and they have a housing office too on uh Wyndham Street um so a lot of their

1:31:18operations are centered here and my understanding is that there's there's not going to be a designation

1:31:27that okay we're bringing people in from Palmerston it's it's it's wealth-centric because they are our

1:31:35official providers are you aware uh no I was not aware of it um I I hadn't seen sort of an

1:31:44explanation why people from farther afield like you know Ferguson beyond would want to come all the

1:31:50way down to Guelph um and it and it may be just um trying to create a centric location for this kind

1:32:00of care so thanks for the clarification on that James okay thanks Susan thank you so much there's

1:32:09no more questions thank you for delegating tonight we do appreciate it thank you thank you

1:32:15John Anderson has been connected now and so we're going to go to him John can you hear me okay I can

1:32:23hear you fine Merrick Guthrie can you hear me yep coming through loud and clear thank you John

1:32:28let me just start my um clock here for you and you can go right ahead okay um I'm not going to

1:32:38talk to the uh sort of zoning uh end of this my immediate neighbor Steve Kilburn did an excellent

1:32:46job of that and is uh very uh good at that sort of thing what I'm most distressed about in this whole

1:32:55application is really the optics of it all uh it seems like uh Wellington County is asking the city to

1:33:05make a fairly broad zoning change uh so that they can do something that has something to do with

1:33:16transitional housing I was hoping tonight to uh have more clarification on exactly who this was

1:33:23aimed at and I'm actually more confused now than I was going in at one point I believe when Mr

1:33:30Aston was speaking there was talk about how people who are served by the housing project at the old

1:33:40park view might then be moved on to Delhi Street or something that is part of a a way station along

1:33:48the way I don't quite understand that um and I was struck by just the the the errors in the

1:33:59original proposal I uh live at lot on lot 30 29 Delhi Street and if you look at appendix a which

1:34:10is the map uh outlining the the building in the area in question uh my lot isn't even showing to

1:34:20a but the property whereas it definitely does so I brought this up with uh Katie Nazgweather I

1:34:27mentioned it to her um I was also surprised to find out after 32 years of living next to Aramasa

1:34:35road that I actually lived next to Aramasa Street now I understand that the county was under no

1:34:41moral or legal obligation to hire someone locally to do this work for them but it may have saved

1:34:49them a couple of embarrassing uh errors if they had people in Guelph are familiar with Aramasa

1:34:56road whereas someone from Brantford a kitchener may not be um and I'm also very confused about

1:35:06what the purpose of this whole building is if it's to help people transition from homelessness

1:35:11to living on their own in a home of their own that's a wonderful idea that's a noble cause

1:35:17and I back that entirely I read with great interest in article in last Friday's Globe and Mail

1:35:25about a proposal that's currently going through this sort of thing in Durham

1:35:31region a plan for transitional housing in Beaverton they're going to be building

1:35:39units 300 square feet each with small kitchenettes and storage area privacy

1:35:47you know the the the sort of things you need if you're going to help people transition to

1:35:53living on their own in their own homes this proposal offers absolutely none of those

1:36:00there's also this bizarre thing of uh shared facilities delineated by sexual identification

1:36:07which in this day and age I find absolutely astounding I can pretty much guarantee somebody

1:36:16is going to object to that if it ever came to pass I really think that that my problem is not

1:36:24with the idea of transitional housing uh in my backyard it's not this in my backyard if the county

1:36:34wants to come back with a legitimate proposal for what they claim to be seeking in the first place

1:36:44that would be fine in the meantime I would recommend strongly that the the city not

1:36:51support this request I would urge council to to vote against it I would actually urge the county

1:37:02to withdraw the application go back to the planning board figure it out and carry on from there

1:37:10and my other real fear is that if the city uh does allow the change in zoning and the county

1:37:21then comes back and says oh we as it turns out don't have the money for this what protection

1:37:29does the city have in other words could someone else come along and say ah this is now zoned for

1:37:37all these different things we can do all these different things it's fine for the county to say

1:37:43we're not going to do this we're not going to do this we're not going to do this but once the changes

1:37:50are in effect is there any way for for the city to stop anyone from bringing those changes into a

1:38:00fact it's really it's optics it's not I don't believe this was terribly well thought out

1:38:08I don't think it functions well if they want to go back and you know come up with a proposal that

1:38:16is much closer as I say to the to the one being put forward in Durham region for the town of Beaverton

1:38:24I would be quite supportive of that but uh just as it exists right now is really

1:38:32just not on thank you uh Mayor Guthrie thank you to the council for hearing me out and that is all

1:38:41I have to contribute at this time thank you John for calling in and and as I say this to you I hope

1:38:49everyone else that's listening that's delegated as well staff are are taking all of these comments

1:38:55down they're taking all of these comments down all these questions I see our our head planer

1:39:00shaking our head there and so these all these issues are being taken away and will be identified

1:39:06in any type of following report that comes forward for our consideration and just let me see if

1:39:12there's any questions for you John there isn't so thank you very much for delegating tonight

1:39:17thank you Mayor and thank you to the council thank you okay and one more thing is before I go to

1:39:26to Matt Sheehy who's next here just before I go there just to be uh confirmed with everyone else

1:39:32again we're actually not here tonight to approve or disapprove the actual recommendation or whatever

1:39:40the recommendation is we are here only tonight to accept the application it's not actual approval

1:39:48of anything tonight just so everyone is very clear on that okay uh so Matt Sheehy can you hear me okay

1:39:55Matt yeah loud and clear there can you hear me all right thanks Matt and I I hope that maybe you

1:40:03heard me off the top there uh indicate that we're here to talk about the the zoning of 65 Del High

1:40:09Street and the you know the efforts of agreeing or not agreeing with the transitional housing

1:40:15zoning that would be in place so I'll I'll start the timer right now for you just give me a second

1:40:22there you go and you go right ahead okay thank you I was very interested in hearing all the

1:40:31comments by the way they were very informative and heart felt and I appreciate the opportunity to

1:40:38address council so um yeah my name is Matt Sheehy and I am part of a group called the

1:40:45As Now Alliance and we are proposing to uh to this this application to allocate a portion of 65 Del

1:40:56High Street for a short term addiction treatment center and I'd like to clarify we do support

1:41:04fully support the transition housing application but we are asking for this committee to allocate

1:41:09a portion of 65 Del High Street to allow for a short term addiction treatment center the

1:41:14center would be a real support and asset not only to this location but it's desperately needed in

1:41:20our city yes we all know advantages to this location are easy access to our most vulnerable

1:41:29so I'm just gonna just jump in I've stopped your time here Matt

1:41:35so yeah we're here to talk about the zoning issues that are in front of us here not about

1:41:42another outside oh sorry just let me just let me finish okay yeah thank you um it just uh not to

1:41:50not to talk about a potential other operational use that we don't oversee anyways that would be the

1:41:57county so is there any kind of commentary you could state in support of the zoning issue that's

1:42:05in front of us with regards to transitional housing you just let me finish this little piece here I do

1:42:13have a preparation that I think you will accept okay we just can't talk about anything else though

1:42:21on that from a different group at all um a different proposal so people have talked about

1:42:27the planning about the the proposal uh the you know I just want to bring uh what we're trying to do

1:42:37here in glove to the attention of the city council and and in particular the to the application

1:42:44$65 street so yes but um but it needs to be scoped to the work that's in front of us here so if you

1:42:53I'll start your time again for you um you're only a minute in so you definitely have nine minutes

1:42:59more left but it does have to be scoped to the matter at hand not a different operational

1:43:06proposal that we would never oversee it it it's not myself or anybody on council I don't want to

1:43:14be speaking for them but that may not be interested or supportive of of a different operational

1:43:20matter but it's not what is allowed to be spoken to here tonight because it's not in scope okay

1:43:27so I'll start the time you try to keep it just to what the proposal is in front of us okay

1:43:33we'll just add this uh Mr. Mayor um the planner uh talked about usage uh other than uh zoning issues

1:43:41he talked about operations and other other uh callers as well talked about things like that so

1:43:47I'm not it's not a long presentation here I'm just going to go right into it and if you want to

1:43:52cut me off that's your call sir um so once again I am part of the as now alliance group

1:44:00and we've been working on a project here in Guelph over two years these are great people

1:44:05it's an important issue and uh we have sort of a piece here we'd like to read out harm reduction

1:44:12is seemingly the prevailing strategy for many social services today but there remains a strong

1:44:18need for sobriety programs detox programs and support programs for members of our society

1:44:24who want to get better and break the cycle of addiction access to these types of programs is

1:44:29getting harder for those who want to pursue sobriety but cannot access support whether it be

1:44:35for financial reasons or wait times people are struggling and in some cases dying while waiting

1:44:41access to real detox sobriety programs okay I'm sorry I gotta interrupt Matt I'm sorry I really

1:44:49truly am sorry uh so you know I am sorry I'm sorry that your story I really am

1:44:55pointed I had another two sir and sir sir another fine sir we know each other quite well yeah I

1:45:05Matt I um I I I want to state again very clearly you didn't cut other people off you didn't cut

1:45:11other people off that spoke on other issues as well that no one's talking about not okay

1:45:16clerk clerk clerk you're gonna have to mute the delegation please okay the the delegate is

1:45:29still here and I've never in my 10 years of being here either as a council or as mayor

1:45:35had to deal with this so I'm gonna take a breath and I'm gonna tell everybody who's listening here

1:45:42that I'm actually very interested in what this group has to offer in fact so interested that

1:45:49I've actually driven to London with them a couple years ago because I support what they're trying to

1:45:54do but I cannot as the mayor and as the chair allow things that are outside of our procedural

1:46:01bylaw that specifically dictates that it has to be spoken to the matter at hand I have to adhere

1:46:09to the procedural bylaw this is an operational submission that does not fall under this arena

1:46:19it would have to go to social services at the committee at the county or under um uh

1:46:27Canadian Mental Health Association that is where this great topic this fantastic topic

1:46:35needs to be had is there anyone on council that is going to challenge me on my decision on that

1:46:44no one so thank you I I'm going to go back to you Matt for one more time because I I've never

1:46:50done this before I want to hear how you think you have your comments around the zoning issue

1:46:59that's in front of us I would implore you to not make this difficult on anybody especially around

1:47:05a topic that is close to your heart and others in mind that you could probably look uh veer and steer

1:47:13this conversation to the matter at hand and I will ask the clerk to unmute and if you could if you

1:47:20could allow him to continue to speak he hung up okay then we're going to move on uh Karen Kaalchuk

1:47:34can you hear me okay I can hear you just fine thank you for joining us uh Karen and I think you're

1:47:44on video as well okay do I want to press the start video button yes please we can see you I think I

1:47:57think that's me we can see you and hear you so thank you Karen let me just restart my um my clock

1:48:06just one second please and I'll turn it over to you you go right ahead okay uh good evening

1:48:14mayor and counselors and thank you for the opportunity to speak my name is Karen Kaalchuk

1:48:21and I'm a resident in close proximity to 65 Delhi actually 65 Delhi is in my backyard

1:48:30forgive me if I go into an area that I shouldn't stop me if I do I'll tie not to

1:48:38um I wanted to comment on several aspects of the proposal but first of all my my my focus is on the

1:48:44areas of the site map identified as existing grass and wooded area and I want to refer to this as

1:48:53the green space and um I also wanted to um acknowledge that counselor Hoffland Susan Watson

1:49:01Rodrigo they all brought up points that I some points that I didn't know so if I'm being a little

1:49:06bit repetitive please forgive me too um anyway I included a document as well and it should have

1:49:14been available to to everyone on the agenda but it but it but it wasn't I think the mayor and the

1:49:20counselors got a copy of it today um but if anybody else wants to get one they can ask their

1:49:26counselor like people who are who are listening but um anyway in my document I have um I have a

1:49:35a map where I've shaded in the green the green space and I'm just going to put this up here I

1:49:41don't know whether you're able to see that I'm not sure anyway um and and and uh what I did is

1:49:52I labeled the yards that are referred to in the proposal one of the one of the counselors I'm not

1:49:57sure which one was confused about that where the yards were and so was I um I needed help from the

1:50:04from Katie the city planner to to help me label that that um that map that shows you know where

1:50:11where the yards are and where the green space is um so anyway the reason the reason that I show

1:50:18that I wanted to show that that that map and in my document I have photos as well is that it's all

1:50:24about awareness um I think that many people don't even know that there's that there's um a green space

1:50:29in in in the area that's being proposed um so it needs to be considered when discussing impact

1:50:36because basically it's vulnerable to development and I can say clearly do not want that um this green

1:50:43space has been neglected the past few years um the park equipment was removed perhaps because

1:50:49there's no current attachment to a city program like people have have mentioned but it's hugely

1:50:55valuable it's personally value to to us um for aesthetic reasons property value reasons and just

1:51:02other other sorts of personal reasons it's valuable to the community like despite the lack of

1:51:07attention it's still a welcome green space it's currently used by families dogs and some local

1:51:12programs it has value as a potential park use you know fix it up keep it public put some more

1:51:18equipment into it um it's value to the city and that's reflected in protection and retention

1:51:24by-laws but it has huge value potential value to the community integration goals of any proposed

1:51:32program for for uh 65 jel high I'm sure you've all heard about you know green space for healing

1:51:39that there's loads of data associating green space with positive mental and physical health

1:51:45green spaces encourage connection to nature community supportive of rehabilitation healing

1:51:51objectives you know opportunity for for peaceful meditative activities public and let's say client

1:51:59use aligns very much with community integration goals so existing green spaces are invaluable

1:52:06need to be recognized as such and they can't allow to be allowed to be a byproduct of a of a

1:52:12business deal you know with no consider of their value or potential so my concern is that there's

1:52:18no clear mention of the green space in the proposal either in the proposal context or the

1:52:24future plans there's no mention of how they would be used maintained improved reduced

1:52:29and furthermore the proposed zoning changes

1:52:34the county of Wellington seek appear to ultimately give them the freedom to do as they please with

1:52:39the green space in the future I had assurances by Katie at the city that no changes in the

1:52:45green space are being considered and of course there's been something said by one of the counselors

1:52:51again I forget about about there being some severances being made but there the so I'd like

1:53:00to find out about that of course too anyway and I was I was I was going to say that however

1:53:08I've there's many references throughout the key supporting documents that suggest the green space

1:53:13could be compromised after purchase especially if more parking is required for permitted uses

1:53:20I don't have the time or the space to list up all of those sorts of phrases that I found I'd be

1:53:25happy to if you asked me to though but the message coming through was that the county of Wellington

1:53:30would pretty much have cart launch to use the land including the green space you know as they

1:53:37please once purchased addressing parking regulations adding additional easements seeking

1:53:42variance or consents whatever they achieve to whatever they needed to to to achieve to to

1:53:48achieve their goals and we all know how quickly green space transitions into concrete so I wanted

1:53:55to propose that a provision of sale if there is going to be a sale could be to ensure the continued

1:54:01existence of the green space to to you know work on improvement and maintenance retain the public

1:54:10use and and think a lot about program use that would reflect it would it would it would be it

1:54:18would reflect the desire of the neighborhood you know to participate in respectful and the

1:54:22collaborative process here and Katie at the city has indicated that that it would they would be

1:54:29open maybe to discussion around this issue so that that kind of finishes my my my green space

1:54:36champion championing sorry and I have some other concerns and I'll try to be careful about how I

1:54:44voice them Cam but I did want to preface it by saying that I recognize the need for appropriate

1:54:49housing for people and I'll enthusiastically support enthusiastically support initiative

1:54:55initiatives that are well researched and deemed appropriate with a high chance of success.

1:55:01I do want to to express that I agree to the neighborhood concerns that would that have

1:55:09been expressed so far tonight I've lived in this neighborhood for over 26 years and there are

1:55:15definitely escalating concerns for our safety and security you know the density of support and

1:55:21rehabilitation programs and shelters within our area already results in what I call travelers

1:55:26through our neighborhood. I won't go into detail about what I've experienced and I was going to

1:55:32but I but I won't but I feel that somebody needs to listen to the individual stories of people in

1:55:40the neighborhood who who have had challenges and if we can't use this public meeting as a form to

1:55:46express these very valid concerns where can we do this maybe someone can answer that that for me

1:55:52so I won't go into any any any personal incidences but just to say you know I I agree that the

1:55:59that the neighborhood has really really valid concerns about about this this project. I do

1:56:05have some concerns also about the the building suitability and I feel that despite the heritage

1:56:12considerations the proposed rebuilding would seriously compromise the nature of the building

1:56:16and the cost has been estimated to be several million and I'm kind of wondering where the

1:56:22money is coming from to to pay for that. I'm also and this was also expressed earlier by

1:56:28by someone else some of us are wondering why the city hasn't chosen to put 65 Delhi out for public

1:56:34sale which would be far more lucrative for the city tax wise of course I'm not a business person

1:56:39at all but it's my understanding that there are potential buyers out there that offer up land

1:56:44and they quote build to suit unquote scenarios allowing the acquisition of an appropriate site

1:56:50along with the construction of a building design to exactly meet the needs of the purchaser.

1:56:56I certainly don't claim to know where the perfect site would be but maybe someone does

1:57:00and that kind of situation sounds like a win-win one to me. My main concern about the proposal

1:57:08for 65 Delhi which is to change the zoning to allow for this is the 36 rooms that are basically

1:57:16the size of a jail cell smaller than a dorm room you know who would develop any sense of pride or

1:57:22ownership or responsibility living in a closet potentially for three years. There's also very

1:57:30a little common space in the four plans and no apparent accommodation for those with children

1:57:35or gender identity considerations and we've talked about this this is a concern other people have too.

1:57:42Just a 30 second warning okay Karen. Oh did you give me a warning already? No this is your

1:57:4730 second warning yeah go ahead. Oh 30 second warning okay gotcha okay so and I also have a

1:57:54concern of course about the no proposed space for in-house in-house services for the for the

1:58:03patrons. My other concerns had to do with the lack of specific program details which have been

1:58:10what you've been saying about County Wellington. I've had questions into Mark Stone and actually he

1:58:16sent me an email about four today so I haven't even been able to read it and I have to sorry I'm

1:58:22going to have to stop you there that's your 10 minutes just for for timing so but stay on the

1:58:27line just to see if there's a follow-up question from any of my colleagues okay. Yeah and and there

1:58:33isn't but I will make a just a recognition here that you talked a lot about green space and you

1:58:41have a wonderful green background in that room there so. Oh I planned it. Yeah well thank you for

1:58:49thank you for calling in Karen we do appreciate it and and you know it's good to hear at the end

1:58:54there with you going last on the delegation list that you kind of also recognized that the county

1:59:00obviously is communicating a little bit with in regards to the operations and some other questions

1:59:04that need to be answered and we are all listening I know that was a little bit of a question there

1:59:09where where can people listen I can guarantee you all my colleagues and staff and myself

1:59:12we're listening for sure okay thank you very much have a good night okay you too good night thank you

1:59:20okay everyone I this is where we're going to take a three to five minute break for allowing

1:59:27anyone that would like to call in on this matter and so I'm just going to allow the clerk to put

1:59:33up a splash screen here for a second with a phone number this is where if someone else would like

1:59:39to comment on the the zoning application in front of us they can and we'll just wait for a few minutes

1:59:47for a few minutes on that and then come back to see if there's anything further

1:59:51with that my colleagues and everyone we can go ahead and both mute and

1:59:55turn off the camera for just a few minutes okay thank you okay everyone I'm going to call the

2:04:02meeting back to order councillor alf gets the gold star tonight with his camera on first

2:04:17and we did have one person call in Robert Eiler I hope I'm saying that right sir and

2:04:25Robert can you hear me okay I can can you hear me yeah you're coming through clear so thank you

2:04:32for calling in and I don't know if you have been listening in the whole time but you do have no

2:04:38more than 10 minutes if you need the whole 10 minutes it's totally fine you'll hear me give

2:04:43you a little 30 second warning there before the 10 minute mark and if you could just try to try

2:04:48your best please to keep your comments to the zoning application that's in front of us today and

2:04:53that would be great I'll stop talking I'll start the timer you go right ahead Robert

2:04:58wonderful thank you uh your worship mayor Guthrie and members of the council my name is Robert

2:05:05Eiler's I'm president and director of the Stara Inc which is the owner of 55 Delhi which is directly

2:05:11adjacent to this property I am remarkably unprepared for this as I wasn't intending on speaking

2:05:17tonight but listening to some of the comments I felt that it was necessary to to make a couple of

2:05:23points specifically focusing on three parts number one focusing on the historical nature of 65 Delhi

2:05:30number two focusing on the accesses to 65 Delhi and third focusing on the potential impacts on

2:05:3855 Delhi and the need to mitigate some of those Delhis so those impacts I find myself in a curious

2:05:45position here because on one hand I strongly support what is being planned here and strongly

2:05:52support the objectives that is trying to be achieved here especially as those who know me well know

2:05:58that I was one of those people that was I wouldn't be here where I am today that hadn't been for the

2:06:03health of organizations such as the Canadian Mental Health Association and some of these

2:06:09other social organizations for those of you that also know me is I have more or less focused my

2:06:16career ever since I got to the ability of no longer having to focus on feeding and housing myself

2:06:22to focusing on what's doing right for the community not necessarily what's the most profitable

2:06:27that's the reason why I bought 55 Delhi and spent over three and a half million dollars

2:06:31restoring it to the point where the building I still spent more money on it than what the

2:06:35building is worth today that is also the reason why I'm building the Canadian Mental Health

2:06:39Association building at 735 737 Woolwich which is 37 million dollar project which I intend to donate

2:06:46to the Canadian Mental Health Association based on that I'm not against this by any means but I do

2:06:52have a number of concerns concern number one is the historical nature of this building I have

2:06:57actually had the pleasure of being through 65 Delhi when we were looking at acquiring the

2:07:02building a number of years ago that building is a complete gut job and I'm sorry for putting it

2:07:07that way it requires at least in my mind and I am a professional construction industry about 350

2:07:13dollars a square foot to be able to restore it to make it into a habitable space in other words

2:07:18it'll be the same situation at 55 which means more money will have to be spent on restoring that

2:07:24building to then the building will be worth in the marketplace why is this important this is

2:07:31important because a proponent is who does not have the ability to put that kind of money into it

2:07:37is going to have to make decisions of whether they restore or whether they replace what do you do with

2:07:42a beautiful hardwood floor it's much easier to put vinyl plank flooring on top of it and just

2:07:49cover it up it's quicker it's cheaper than actually taking the time to restore it so my concern is

2:07:55this building with the types of money that will be invested will probably not be restored to the

2:08:01level that a building of this nature deserves to be restored never mind the maintenance costs the

2:08:06maintenance costs are anywhere between five and ten dollars a square foot more than it would be for

2:08:12a brand new building so my question comes to this will the historical nature of this building be

2:08:18preserved how can it be preserved when budgetary constraints are going to be an issue and how do

2:08:23we protect a building of this significance from you know from from becoming everything that it

2:08:31could represent so to me I don't believe that from a historical preservation basis that this will be

2:08:37the most ideal proposal the second issue that I have with it is accesses there are three accesses

2:08:43to the property right now one accesses of aramasa two of the accesses go directly through my property

2:08:50one of them go through a right of way which comes off deli street the other one goes through

2:08:53my parking lot in the back of the building how is that going to function are we going to see

2:08:59congregation of large groups of people are we going to see um um accesses of you know people

2:09:06cutting through those properties how is that going to function how are we going to be able to make

2:09:11sure that uh it doesn't necessarily interfere with our existing tenants in a negative or detrimental

2:09:18fashion which brings me down to point number three my current tenants are already concerned

2:09:23about this proposal especially the daycare how do you compete a for-profit daycare next to a daycare

2:09:30that is funded and run by the county of wellington you can't the reality is that the daycare is

2:09:36permitted in the property the daycare will be shut down and we will be losing jobs in the daycare

2:09:41that we currently have we've got tenants who are concerned um whether people will be you know coming

2:09:48by whether they'll be loitering on the front yard will they be sitting on the porch will they be

2:09:52whatever now i understand that much of that is probably here Robert it's margathry i've started

2:09:57i've stopped the time there for you just to to maintain the the remaining five minutes

2:10:02robert we're getting into sort of you know the who might be there hanging out like like none of that

2:10:07none of that really is why we're here tonight so i paused just for a moment there i stopped your

2:10:13time i'm going to start it again if you could keep it to the zoning matters i would i would really

2:10:17appreciate it go right ahead no i i understand and it's not so much about the zoning matters as it

2:10:23is there could be a potential uh detrimental impact on the existing tenants of the existing building

2:10:31what i would like to see is i'd like to see a win-win and what i would like to say is that i'm

2:10:35prepared to work with the proponents together to try and find a win-win that will work for everyone

2:10:40as far as the site is concerned um those are in my mind's legitimate concerns historical

2:10:48renovation number one number two is the accesses to the property and third of all the existing or

2:10:53potential impact on the existing tenants and all i'm looking for is that those are somehow

2:10:58addressed as we go through this process and i'm prepared to work with it if not as another

2:11:03delicacy already mentioned i'm more than happy to also engage with the city of providing an

2:11:08alternative vision for the property thank you for your time thank you robert we appreciate you

2:11:15calling in is there any call follow-up questions for robert i'm seeing and hearing none so thank you

2:11:21very much and we actually did have someone else call in there as well it's uh mark enchin and mark

2:11:30can you hear me okay hi mark can you hear me okay so i think mark you must have it on the

2:11:54the seven second delay there you're probably watching the live stream oh i'm sorry yes that's

2:11:59okay hi hi mark it's it's marik gathry how are you good how are you good thank you for calling in

2:12:06and let me just start the clock here for you um and you go you go right ahead with your

2:12:11delegation on this matter go right ahead all right thank you marik um actually i just wanted to make

2:12:18just a very quick point um i'm i would like everyone to know that i am in favor of this type

2:12:25of housing some of the counselors and the mayor probably know that i've been working for years

2:12:31trying to get more affordable housing into our community my issue only is by having a transitional

2:12:40um housing project um the problem here is that we don't have anywhere for them to go

2:12:49afterwards our city president lee is probably has a waiting list of a few thousand people

2:12:55but need affordable housing and we have no mandate as a city to build any so i guess my question would

2:13:03be why would we create transitional housing when there is nowhere for them to transition to

2:13:12so i don't need 10 minutes that was my only question i it would be interesting to hear from

2:13:17the county i've tried contacting them but i haven't heard back but um you know i would like

2:13:25nothing more than to help people like this but if we don't have anywhere to transition them to

2:13:30i'd hate to see people living in cubicles for for years on end and not having a solution and

2:13:36i believe the city and the county and the private sector should try to work together and try to help

2:13:44solve that problem that was it no thank you thank you marik thank you and you know calling in and

2:13:52imposing that question is is valid for people to take away especially the county who is obviously

2:13:57listening in and will address address all the issues tonight so so thank you very much for

2:14:03calling in let me see if there's any follow-up questions for you though i don't i don't see

2:14:07you're here any so thank you very much all right thank you okay bye bye fine okay everybody

2:14:16it's back to back to us and thank you to all of the delegations that that did sign up and

2:14:24and i i do appreciate i um uh you know waiting waiting slogging through through that we appreciate

2:14:30your comments your questions and the takeaways um that will be happening here tonight based on on

2:14:36that commentary and i just before i go to councillor Allt um i want to just restate for us as a council

2:14:45and for the community uh like i have been the last few months our staff have um have grabbed

2:14:53everything that was discussed tonight they have they have captured it all that's the better word

2:14:58to uh to mark it down as questions to take away to get answers that would come back with any kind

2:15:04of final report uh and uh there's that um blow through also to the applicant uh who is uh the

2:15:12county to also be listening and taking away those questions as well so uh there's nothing really for

2:15:17us as a council to restate that hasn't already been stated by the delegates um unless there's

2:15:23something new um before i go to councillor Allt i hope i could just put you on the spot uh christa

2:15:30our manager of planning have i captured that right myself or is there anything further uh no

2:15:37miragathri you have captured it correctly we do have many pages of notes that we have okay uh

2:15:42have tonight as well as we will also lean on the clerk's office as well okay great councillor

2:15:48thank you councillor Allt uh over to you and then i got councillor gibson next thank you mayor guthery

2:15:54i'll be very happy to move the motion i won't speak at this point i expect my colleague

2:16:00have smaller questions to what i might ask okay and i saw um the second slash peace sign come from

2:16:07councillor hoffman uh and so i'm supposing she's seconding the receipt and again i i hope you don't

2:16:14mind me restating this for everybody it's it's again part of sometimes the complications of the

2:16:18process we are voting on receiving the application tonight not approving or disapproving we are just

2:16:25voting to receive it tonight okay councillor gibson you're next and kind of see some hands

2:16:30is there anybody else that wants people to uh staff to take away something councillor Caron and

2:16:34galler okay go ahead councillor gibson first and then councillor Caron and galler thank you

2:16:40through you mr mayor thanks for teeing up the first part of my question which was to clarify

2:16:45that this file is for receipt this evening for everyone who's watching at home so that's appreciated

2:16:50um i guess my question is for staff is is about process so from here we've heard tonight um a fairly

2:16:58um an an overarching desire for the zoning but also some fallback plans as well

2:17:05and maybe a little bit of a broadening of the zoning and and sort of the ambitions for the property

2:17:11can you help us understand between now and the next time we meet hopefully on this file

2:17:17what could change uh will there be back and forth with a proponent in terms of tightening up that

2:17:22zoning if fund if certain funding streams come through um can you just help clarify what staff

2:17:29will be going away and working on with the proponent um after this meeting through you mayor

2:17:38guthrie to councillor gibson um yes following this meeting we will have a sit down with the county

2:17:44and with their consulting team to discuss the application as well as all of the comments

2:17:48we heard here tonight i think is the consultant for the county indicated tonight they would be

2:17:54preparing a list of responses which they will share with the public so that will be appreciated

2:17:59going forward and we will um ask that question specifically to them as a result of the conversation

2:18:04that i heard earlier tonight anyway um we'll also talk about about the uses that's proposed and

2:18:11and what is what is proposed and what they're coming back with so we will clarify that when

2:18:16we come back to council exactly what the the use is and and try to provide some more information

2:18:21around that as well thank you miss walkie in one last question um again i did hear i did hear

2:18:28questions tonight that were perhaps not 100 applicable for this conversation on zoning

2:18:33but they were operational in nature um just to lend lend support to those groups who are interested

2:18:39and on more of the operational side where is the best place for them to get their information

2:18:44from i don't want to just put this on the war two counselors but where where do they go from here

2:18:49is it the social services committee um where can they find that information and how can they stay

2:18:55involved on the operational side which is not necessarily what we're talking about tonight

2:19:02through you mayor Guthrie to councillor gibson i believe uh mark post was the director of housing

2:19:07with the county of wellington his name was offered up to provide comments too so i will

2:19:12reiterate that tonight and we will also work with our it folks to put his name on our web page to

2:19:18make sure it is convenient for everyone on current planning applications for the 65 del high street

2:19:24to make sure we have his contact information as well that's terrific thank you very much and i

2:19:31guess in my closing comments i i look forward to supporting receipt of this tonight and continue

2:19:35to walk down this hallway as long as the door stays open thank you thank you councillor Caron goller

2:19:43salbury uh thank you uh as you mentioned most of the questions and a whole list of things community

2:19:51energy plan garbage bins all that kind of stuff are a normal part of our planning process i'll leave

2:19:56that to staff what i am curious about and it's kind of a question but all um is how we're going to

2:20:03deal with each one of the zoning requests because it was my understanding at the very onset of this

2:20:09project that this was a transitional housing project and that the zoning would be focused on that

2:20:16but we actually have additional requests for emergency shelter which i see is a different

2:20:21use and a daycare which i see as a different use so will staff be giving us their planning opinion

2:20:28on all of the uses separately or is this a big package and we're going to get a staff report

2:20:34on the requested uses as a whole i'm requesting if staff would consider this as input for tonight

2:20:42that we we get an analysis of each of the potential uses because i see them as very different

2:20:49zoning applications this is a three in one so i'd like three and i'd like a three in one report

2:20:55or yeah i'll leave it at that thanks just for clarity just so expectations are set right now

2:21:08because it's important because it's like it needs to kind of be answered now council cron's suggestion

2:21:15is that okay with staff like i just don't want to set us up and then you know three months from

2:21:18now or whatever whenever this comes back it doesn't capture that is that doable

2:21:24or do you need council direction to give us three different reports

2:21:29nope yeah and i wasn't even going going i wasn't even going to go there that that's fair

2:21:32commentary i just wanted to make sure that staff were okay going down that road of your suggestion

2:21:37that's all yes through you marica three we we are okay with that approach there are three different

2:21:42requests that were submitted by the applicant and as a result staff will now analyze each of the

2:21:47individual requests along with the regulations that will be associated with them thank you

2:21:54great and that will make it a lot clearer i think for not only us but the public too

2:21:59thanks for asking for that councillor Caron councillor Goller and then salisbury

2:22:06thank you your worship i will not be repeating any of the questions that that have been

2:22:11um uh brought forward but i do uh want to get clarity from from staff if possible uh we

2:22:20we are we are now looking at approving uh what has been termed transitional housing and i am

2:22:25confused by by the the different use of the term so i would appreciate it you could include

2:22:31as part of your your analysis the difference between permanent supportive and transitioning

2:22:37the the uh the applicant did answer but it wasn't clear to me his answer uh and i and i was wondering

2:22:44is it possible that the staff uh reports include a consideration of other um transitional or

2:22:52supportive housing uses in the city so that we make this decision as part of the of the ecosystem

2:23:00of the city i know later today we're going to be looking at a at a related type of uh housing

2:23:06situation so it can i could i just get a yes or no is it possible that the staff report will

2:23:12include um how this fits in place with those other and the difference between this and those other

2:23:18types of permanent supportive or temporary housing through america three-account sir galler i can

2:23:28confirm that the applicant has provided a definition of what they feel transitional housing is and

2:23:33that is the the definition that was put forward in the staff report we do evaluate each application

2:23:39individually so you will see different comments and different recommendations on every individual

2:23:43application it also gives some um certainty to the neighborhood based on the number of units

2:23:48and the proposal that is in front of council at the time so we are very specific with these

2:23:53applications and they are evaluated independently independently okay okay uh because i am i am

2:24:00concerned about questions that were raised about that the the quality of of the housing opportunity

2:24:06given that these units are so small so i i would hope for for some consideration of of the um

2:24:13the adequate use to the question of are these apartments are there suites how can we have

2:24:19an apartment building without apartments in it uh so those are some of the questions that i'm trying

2:24:24to wrap my my head around but uh thank you for that now that's my only question your worship

2:24:29great thank you and over to councillor salisbury and then alt please thank you mr mayor uh echoing

2:24:35the previous two councilors comments um i similarly found a little bit of a red flag

2:24:42with what uh specifically with regards to zoning for future uses had me a little concerned um i

2:24:49don't recall that being before you know i i would like zoning for a medical office but hey it might be

2:24:55a vet in the future kind of thing um so i'd like to get have our staff kind of take a look at it

2:25:01from that perspective is you know is it appropriate for us to be zoning for future uses or do we

2:25:06zone for the here and now and what we know and it's been it was really brought home a number of

2:25:11comments about uh you know if we zone it for that expect it and and so i'd like to get you know echoing

2:25:19councillor uh karan's comments about well is that is that an appropriate is that a compatible

2:25:26mix of uses for want for that building uh and then similarly with regards to the definition

2:25:31between transitional and emergency shelter yes the report makes uh the the proposal they've they

2:25:40provided a definition for uh transitional housing and it is shades of gray for sure

2:25:47but we've also defined a shelter within our planning context and i'd like to have some

2:25:54exploration about our opinion uh as far as what we think we we want to have or not have

2:26:03where the lines go as far as that that gray zone between what we deem as a shelter and what is

2:26:09being proposed as transitional recognizing it's probably as i say shades of gray so thank you

2:26:18thank you and councillor Allt you're going to finish us no you're going to go and then

2:26:22your building is going to go the pen the penultimate finish um

2:26:28quick question but i think it needs to be answered by staff uh now for public understanding

2:26:34we are considering a zoning change and a principle of planning the questions that have come up from

2:26:40council are what is the correlation between transitional versus support housing my question

2:26:47to staff that i think is important for all of the public to understand could the same zoning

2:26:53change apply to both transitional and supportive housing and even as councillor salisbury says

2:27:00as emergency shelter that that i think is key to to understanding where we're going here uh

2:27:06irrespective of the issue of daycare which i think is another issue that needs further

2:27:11discussion by the city so miss walkie if you could explain what the zoning relationship between

2:27:18transitional and emergency and supportive housing are they all one and the same for the purpose

2:27:23of zoning or are we dealing with three different um possible zoning proposals through your maraca

2:27:33three two councillor alts we will be looking at the definitions that they have suggested along with

2:27:37the ones that we have created to ensure there is consistency we will also be working and having

2:27:42further discussion with the county to determine exactly what they're proposing to make sure it's

2:27:46very clear to council and the community what the uses are and then around that the definition as well

2:27:52as the units will be specified in in a zoning bylaw that we do bring forward um in a recommendation

2:27:57reported if it's supported if the uses are supported um or we'll be bringing recommendations

2:28:02forward if they're not supported once we have that evaluation and discussion great thank you

2:28:13um and councillor all you just got to just a reminder to you to to mute

2:28:17and uh and then over to councillor billings please uh through you mr mayor my question's probably for

2:28:26deputy cio um claque bush colleen um i think that under the parkland dedication bylaw that the city

2:28:34is exempt if it's a city uh purpose and so i just wanted clarity for sure the whole parkland

2:28:41issue will be addressed in the report that comes back to council even under the financial implications

2:28:49so through the mayor to councillor billings yes we'll certainly address the parkland dedication

2:28:53i think some of what was mentioned tonight has been clarified by the fact that this is only the

2:28:58purchase of the the the building in the land immediately adjacent to it the usable parkland

2:29:03is not being included uh in the conditional sale to the county and so i think that answers

2:29:09some of the concerns but also i know miss watson raised questions about um the the the sale value

2:29:14of the building um obviously because that was uh discussed and closed i can't disclose the

2:29:20terms of that at this time but we will make sure that we come back to council we'll fill clarity

2:29:24on that but we'll of course ensure that both we in the county um are honoring any requirements

2:29:30that exist under that parkland dedication bylaw okay thanks colleen and then also uh through you

2:29:37your worship to uh planning stuff so in the report it refers to 36 suites sometimes people

2:29:45are calling them units um and shoeboxes and and and other uh names but i was wondering

2:29:53how is staff calculating the density then because one person will say it's 66 uh units per hectare

2:30:00but i just wanted to clarify because the zone um that we're looking at the rezoning is the r4d

2:30:07which is an apartment zone but these aren't truly apartments and so i was just wondering how are we

2:30:14calculating the density uh through you mr mayor to councillor billings uh staff will

2:30:25include that in their analysis but essentially these uh these suites are our bedrooms and they

2:30:31aren't the standard dwelling unit which would consist of a kitchen and a bathroom at least

2:30:35living space in a bedroom so we will take that into consideration uh in our review and report back

2:30:43with um how we how we'd look at density in this situation okay okay because also through you mr

2:30:51mayor um just to follow up on that katie because i was looking at the um op policies and you have

2:30:58in there the the maximum net density is 60 units per hectare right but then under that clause four

2:31:05you've got the notwithstanding right which means you can go to a max density of 100 units per per

2:31:12hectare however the planning act has changed with respect to bonusing so if that could be addressed

2:31:19in the report that comes back for for an understanding of how many units really can be put on this site

2:31:26that would be helpful we can address that in our follow-up thank you okay and then also um your worship

2:31:35attachment five so katie attachment five has permitted uses and under permitted uses it says

2:31:44like for example i.e. daycare um however uh we have in there um transitional zoning but i think

2:31:54a permitted use is transitional housing not transes so zoning so i was just wondering if you could

2:32:00take a look at that that issue as well that's it mr mayor okay thank you very much everyone um my

2:32:14colleagues have captured um everything that i wanted to ask so i won't i'll just say ditto

2:32:20all what i like everyone's saying ditto uh with that it's been moved and seconded and uh so with

2:32:27that i will call the vote to receive only all in favor please raise your hand looks unanimous to me

2:32:37confirmed by the clerk okay everybody um we we have a pretty big night still ahead of us

2:32:50and so i'm gonna do a five minute break right now five minutes only and then we're gonna come back

2:32:58and we're gonna do the arcle road one right away it is 903 on my computer screen here i will see

2:33:04everyone at 908 thank you all right i'll call the meeting back to order see which counselor puts

2:37:49their uh counselor salisbury well done close ties counselor mckinnon there everyone's popping back

2:38:03on here thank you very much everyone so this is this time of night where i do say that uh i'm looking

2:38:13at math purely math the amount of delegations the amount of time allotted before 11 o'clock

2:38:19the decisions in front of us so just be aware just just me being making everyone aware

2:38:26we are on to 33 to 41 arcle road and the 1408 gordon street zoning bylaw amendment

2:38:35and my agenda says ward two i don't think that's ward two last time i checked i think that two

2:38:47needs to be backwards and upside down i think that's supposed to be a five maybe a six actually

2:38:53it's on the court right is usually the cutoff i think uh yeah so it's six six so we have a staff

2:39:02presentation not in our agenda from ryan but from mike actually good to see you mike i'll

2:39:09turn it over to you to to hit us up with the staff presentation on this one go for it thanks

2:39:16margothry i don't know if you can hear me okay i'll share my screen here okay good evening margothry

2:39:43members of city council applicants and members of the public the city has received an application

2:39:48for a zoning bylaw amendment from ibi group on behalf of asc guelph facility limited to permit

2:39:55a mixed use retirement community tonight's meeting is a statutory public meeting required under the

2:40:00planning act and no decisions are to be made on the application tonight i would like to start off

2:40:07by noting that anyone in attendance at tonight's meeting for this proposed development if

2:40:12for this proposed development wishes to stay informed via regular mail of the application

2:40:17including when applications are scheduled to return to council for a decision please make

2:40:21sure that you provide your full contact information to planning staff by emailing planning at guelph.ca

2:40:26or by calling 519-837-5616 i would now like to discuss the application site characteristics and

2:40:37the development the subject lands are located on the south side of arkall road and the east side

2:40:43of gordon street the lands are l shaped at the southeast corner of gordon street and arkall

2:40:48road and wrap around two properties on gordon street the subject lands have an area of 1.96

2:40:54hectares the surrounding land uses include to the north arkall road and beyond which are land

2:41:01zoned for various residential and commercial uses including cluster townhouses as well as a real

2:41:05estate sales center to the east a religious establishment the arkall road bible chapel

2:41:12and single detached dwellings to the south land zone for institutional commercial and residential

2:41:18uses including a commercial mall and daycare and to the west commercial retail uses and a vacant

2:41:24parcel with current development applications to permit another mixed use development the subject

2:41:32property is partially designated as neighborhood commercial center and partly as medium density

2:41:37residential in the city's official plan the neighborhood commercial center land use designation

2:41:42applies to existing commercial centers as well as the general location of new commercial areas

2:41:48the gross floor area of commercial space is limited to 6500 square meters multiple unit

2:41:54residential uses are permitted within mixed use buildings development proposals within the neighborhood

2:42:00commercial designation must have a minimum floor space index known as fsi per commercial space of

2:42:060.15 if the amount of commercial space provided is less than an fsi of 0.15 a commercial function

2:42:14study must be must be completed and submitted for review the medium density residential land

2:42:20use designation applies to areas where multiple unit residential buildings such as townhouses

2:42:25and apartments are permitted residential development is to be between 15 and 100 units per hectare

2:42:30and a height between two and six stories currently the subject lands are zoned residential single

2:42:39attached and specialized cluster townhouse in the zoning bylaw the applicant is specifically

2:42:47requesting to change the zoning on the subject lands from the current residential single detached

2:42:51and specialized cluster townhouse to a specialized general apartment zone to permit a mixed use

2:42:57retirement community the mixed use development is proposed to contain a mix of retirement residential

2:43:03in the form of conventional apartments 47 units independent living units which are 99 units

2:43:10and memory care units 80 units in this case in addition 257 square meters of commercial space

2:43:17is proposed fronting onto arkel road the applicant is requested to redevelop the property in

2:43:23accordance with the permitted regulations for the standard r4a zone with the following site specific

2:43:28regulations in addition to the uses permitted within the r4a zone commercial slash retail uses

2:43:35shall be permitted to accommodate the dedicated 257 square meter commercial space second to permit

2:43:42a maximum density of 115 units per hectare whereas a maximum of 100 units per hectare is permitted

2:43:49next to permit a front yard setback of three meters from arkel road whereas six meters is required

2:43:56to permit a maximum side yard of 4.8 meters from the eastern property line

2:44:01whereas the side yard of half of the height of the building is required

2:44:06next to permit a maximum floor space index of 1.3 whereas a maximum floor space index of one is

2:44:12permitted and finally to permit site specific parking rates as follows for retail one space per

2:44:2033 square meters for the conventional seniors apartment units one and a half spaces per unit

2:44:27for the first 20 units and 1.25 spaces per unit for any additional units for the proposed independent

2:44:34living units 0.6 spaces per unit and finally for the proposed memory care units one space for every

2:44:40three units the subject lands are proposed to be redeveloped into a single building containing a mix

2:44:49of 226 retirement residential units for senior citizens these units are broken into three main

2:44:56types first conventional apartments and again there's 47 of those proposed second independent

2:45:03living units where 99 of those are proposed and finally memory care units where 80 or 80 are proposed

2:45:10the retirement residential units will have several private amenities available to residents

2:45:15including fitness commutal dining personal services a library and outdoor amenities

2:45:20in addition to the residential component 257 square meters of commercial space is proposed

2:45:26that fronts onto arkel road the commercial space will be open to the public as well as to serve

2:45:31the daily needs of residents living within this development all required parking for the development

2:45:36is proposed to be accommodated on the site specifically a total of 155 parking spaces are

2:45:42shown of these 121 spaces are to be allocated to the independent and conventional apartment units

2:45:5026 spaces are to be allocated to the memory care units eight spaces are to be allocated to the

2:45:56commercial retail uses eight spaces will be barrier free and of total residential parking

2:46:0220% will be reserved for visitors staffs review these of this application will address the following

2:46:10issues evaluation of the proposal's conformity to the 2020 provincial policy statement and a place

2:46:16to grow the 2019 growth plan for the greater golden horseshoe evaluation of the proposal's conformity

2:46:22with the policies of the official plan review of the proposed zoning as well as the requested

2:46:27specialized regulations review of the proposal's land use and built form compatibility with the

2:46:33adjacent and established land uses review of the requested net residential density

2:46:39review of site servicing and grading requirements review of traffic impacts on a budding and

2:46:44surrounding roadways and the need for any traffic related improvements that are influenced or

2:46:48triggered by the development this will also include the impacts of the proposed gordon

2:46:53street improvements in the immediate area next review how the applicant can achieve a commitment

2:46:59to net zero during the detailed design phase as part of the community energy initiative update

2:47:04and finally address all comments and issues that are raised during the public review of this

2:47:08application once the application is reviewed in all issues all issues have been addressed

2:47:14a staff report with a recommendation will be considered at a future meeting of council

2:47:19any issues raised at tonight's public meeting will be noted by staff as we continue to evaluate

2:47:24and review the application thank you very much and planning staff will be pleased to answer any

2:47:29questions thanks mike we appreciate the presentation from staff on giving us the overview of this

2:47:39application and what i'll do at this time if uh if you don't mind we'll just jump to the two

2:47:44delegations that we have listed uh david gobrath on behalf of the applicant all seniors care david

2:47:52can you hear me okay yes i can hear you can hear me okay yeah coming through just fine thank you

2:47:58for joining us and uh you can go right ahead i'll start the timer for you you have no more than

2:48:0510 minutes so go right ahead okay great thank you uh good evening mayor scot three and members of

2:48:11council my name is david gobrath and i am a manager of planning at ibi group here on behalf of the

2:48:16applicant all seniors care living centers this evening uh thanks mike for your presentation

2:48:21i've also prepared a quick slide deck um that if you'd like to follow along with my delegation

2:48:26tonight it starts on page 108 of the the council packet so i'll jump to the next slide now in terms

2:48:33of my presentation tonight i'll talk briefly about the site location that's surrounding context

2:48:38i'll skip over that part to a large extent please mike has talked to that already i'll provide an

2:48:43overview of the proposed development a short description of the zoning bylaw amendment before

2:48:47you tonight for consideration back to staff and an overview of the technical study is completed today

2:48:54um so the site is municipally known as 33 to 37 arcel in 1408 gordon street

2:49:02in total the site has an area of approximately 4.85 acres uh and frontage on both arcel and gordon

2:49:09even though it does have frontage on both of these streets it's not technically a corner lot as there

2:49:14are a number of properties closer to the corner there the site has 23 meters of frontage on the

2:49:20gordon and as you'll see on the site plan that's being proposed to be used for the main entrance

2:49:24to the site as well as about 80 meters of frontage off of arcel i'll skip over the next couple of

2:49:31slides which talk about the surrounding context uh in the interest of time tonight

2:49:39in terms of what's being proposed here as described by mike the development will contain

2:49:44three distinct wings tailored to to the needs of future residents the intention is to establish a

2:49:51place with a continuum of care for aging in place and to make that a viable option for older adults

2:49:57within the community on the site plan within my presentation you'll see a blue wing which is for

2:50:02the proposed seniors apartment wing there are 47 seniors apartment units proposed in this development

2:50:09which will either be one or two bedrooms in size and contain a small kitchen

2:50:14the orange wing shown on the site plan will contain 99 independent living suites unlike the

2:50:20seniors apartments these units will not have a full kitchen but more of a kitchen app with a sink

2:50:28and residents of these units will have access to communal dining services

2:50:33the green wing which is adjacent to arcel will be the memory care and assisted living wing

2:50:37containing 80 units this wing will provide secured living arrangements for residents with

2:50:42memory needs such as dementia or requiring additional physical or or health related services and

2:50:47supports the abscain is also proposing a ground uh ground oriented retail unit along the arcel

2:50:55frontage which could be suitable for a small pharmacy convenience store food store but the

2:51:00specific use has not been determined as of yet regardless of the unit type future residents

2:51:06within the entire retirement community will have access to a broad range of services and amenities

2:51:11within the development including common dining areas a library theaters medical examination rooms

2:51:17a salon party rooms a pool gym and yoga and fitness studios and an on-site chapel the development

2:51:24is also contemplated to have extensive outdoor amenities including a secured outdoor amenity area

2:51:29for for residents of the assisted living wing or memory care component of the development

2:51:37I know parking is a key consideration in the city and so I thought I would talk to how the

2:51:43standards proposed and the parking provision proposed has been determined to this preliminary

2:51:50state as part of the overall development concept the applicant is proposing a total of 155 parking

2:51:55stalls of which 50 are proposed below grade and the remainder at surface parking a site specific

2:52:03parking rate is being requested for the development the overall parking provision for this retirement

2:52:08community has been determined based on a number of various considerations including parking surveys

2:52:13of similar developments which were determined in accordance with city staff existing all seniors

2:52:19care facilities and other municipalities the parking consultant also reviewed

2:52:24I.T.E. standards for recommended rates and we've also compared standards for other similarly sized

2:52:31southwestern Ontario municipalities and there's also the recognition that many of the future residents

2:52:38with the exception of those within seniors apartment will not own a car the cities in effect parking

2:52:44standards require a parking provision of about one space for three units for memory care wing

2:52:49which is would be classified as a nursing home for the purposes of bylaw and an average of 1.25 to

2:52:561.5 parking spaces for independent living and apartment wings the development currently the

2:53:01bylaw does not distinguish between independent living and apartments and in our experience as

2:53:05outlined in the transportation and parking report these in effect rates far exceed the actual

2:53:10requirements or or or recognized parking needs for similar developments so as a point of comparison

2:53:18the city of London requires 0.5 spaces per unit for seniors apartment buildings and and as a total

2:53:24calculation across the complex and the city of Ottawa requires 0.25 spaces for similar retirement

2:53:30community more as a more local comparative example the city of Waterloo requires 0.3 spaces for

2:53:38assisted living and independent living so if any of these standards were applied in this instance

2:53:44the total would be would fall at about 100 spaces and I just have again a point of comparison

2:53:52the applicant operates three similarly sized retirement communities in Ottawa and one in

2:53:57London and the parking provision on those sites has always been deemed to be suitable

2:54:04the next couple slides show the elevations of the proposed development the first showing

2:54:09our Cal the our Cal frontage as you will see the development is proposed to tear us along

2:54:14the natural grades of the site so along the eastern side of the building it will it will

2:54:19show as a four-story building and then a lot at the western side of the our Cal frontage it will

2:54:26read as a five-story building and that's where the ground floor retail use is proposed the next

2:54:33slide shows the the Gordon Street facade of the building and what you can see here is the three

2:54:40wings barely clearly shown with the apartment portion of the development in the southern portion

2:54:48of the portion of the site and I would note that that building is approximately 50 meters

2:54:53step back from the rear property line the apartment building is connected to the remainder of the

2:54:59retirement community through a pool to build in which is shown with the green roof

2:55:05so Mike has already gone through the required planning application so I'm not going to repeat

2:55:10that here but in terms of technical studies that have also been submitted as part of the

2:55:16application there was a planning justification an urban design report prepared by IVI transportation

2:55:22impact and parking studies prepared by Paradigm engineering plans prepared by GM Blue Plan and

2:55:28then there have been wind studies and shadow studies also submitted as part of this application

2:55:36so at this time I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to speak to council tonight

2:55:40and if you have any questions I'd be happy to answer or take them back to my team well thank

2:55:47thank you thank you so much for for delegating we appreciate it and let me just see if there's

2:55:51any follow-up questions I'll start with Councillor Caron or Rourke and then Salisbury

2:55:58thank you mr. mayor and thank you to the applicant for the presentation um so I have two questions

2:56:04the first has to do with parking and you were you covered a lot of of where you got your numbers from

2:56:10and having had a parent in long-term care for many many years as a visitor um the visitors spaces were

2:56:20almost always used up and this is a facility that had lots and lots of land especially during

2:56:27Christmas and and those times of years when family visits quite a lot and so I'm just wondering

2:56:37whether these maximum like seasonal type of parking requirements for around Christmas I know

2:56:45you can't build that into your formula but in many locations there's side streets where overflow

2:56:52parking can go and Gordon street there is no overflow parking and arcle road there is no parking

2:57:01so I'm just wondering if you've thought about this excess seasonal need for parking in the plans

2:57:08and where that additional parking would go through you mr. mayor yeah so when the parking study was

2:57:19prepared they would look at kind of peaks throughout the year or assumed peaks and they would have

2:57:25recommended the rates based on that as well as dated any uh for the site so I believe it was

2:57:33considered but I can verify that and work with city staff to confirm that that has been appropriately

2:57:37considered okay and then my second question has to do with our community energy plan and our net

2:57:45zero uh target as you know we are striving to be a net zero uh city by 2050 or hopefully earlier

2:57:54and we're not going to get there unless we start developing our building our city differently so I

2:58:00wonder if you could outline for us all the amazing ways that you are going to ensure that this development

2:58:06is net zero through you mr. mayor so as part of the the development application there were

2:58:16there was like community and energy initiative review undertaken for the development so in this

2:58:24instance the development is not proposed to be a net zero development but there are various

2:58:30sustainability uh elements uh proposed for the development which includes um some specialized

2:58:37heat pump systems um and as well as the green roof over the the pool pavilion so there are

2:58:45details within that that submission to the city okay just following up on that um the tide has shifted

2:58:53in in building uh solar building sustainable technologies um and it's actually cheaper not

2:59:03only to build or it certainly uh is heading that way and more importantly um much more

2:59:09affordable to operate would your development consider um being a net zero building um during

2:59:18the planning phases during the site plan um as these new technologies continue to lower

2:59:25lower building costs uh recognizing that one of the reasons why developments are not building

2:59:31to net zero is uh about a 15 cost differential and as that comes down to less than zero would

2:59:39you reconsider your plans uh to to you mr. mayor I I can take that back to the applicant it is

2:59:48early days within the design process um but I will take that back to the applicant

2:59:54much appreciated thank you thanks councillor or work and then councillor salarie and then

3:00:04councillor bell thank you mr. mayor so um councillor Caron broached the parking issue and I'm very

3:00:11satisfied with the ratio for apartments um you address the question of visitors that's also

3:00:17a concern but your presentation says you anticipate about 100 jobs created so what's

3:00:24what's the parking ratio set aside for staff um and the reason I ask is that we're talking

3:00:30about zoning for a general apartment building but it's actually a business where you know there's a

3:00:35lot of staff support in the kitchen and in terms of care in terms of maintenance so uh where's the

3:00:42reserve staff parking through you mr. mayor um so the the the the parking for staff for the facility

3:00:52has been factored in within the the proposed parking rates for the development um so again when

3:00:59yet when calculating the rate for the assisted living for instance uh we're not proposing a zero

3:01:04rate there but the parking that's actually proposed for for that type of use would be for staff as well

3:01:11as for visitors of uh of residents of that way and likewise for the intended living um okay and I

3:01:21have I mean I submitted a bunch of questions to staff so I know that they'll be looking at that

3:01:25going forward but to councillor Caron's good point there is no space for overflow parking because

3:01:31our coal is an arterial as is gordon street um and there's already lots of pressure on parking in

3:01:37that area um I had a question for your shadow study so your shadow study shows september

3:01:46shadowing starting at 9 a.m. December starting at 10 but then april starting at 8 a.m. so I'm

3:01:53wondering uh why you wouldn't have been consistent in submitting those shadow studies uh my concern

3:02:00is about the three meter setback from arco and also the impact on the properties across the street

3:02:06and I see roads in the winter sure uh through you mayor gutery so the shadow study uh when we were

3:02:16preparing it we received a terms of reference from city staff so this um the terms of reference

3:02:21sets out the various different intervals that are to be reviewed throughout throughout the day and

3:02:27more specifically within different months throughout the year so it is a consistent approach with other

3:02:33southwestern Ontario municipalities but again our shadow study responded to the city's criteria

3:02:39that that were were provided to us we can do additional modeling but again it was responding to

3:02:46the city criteria okay thanks and then I just had a couple questions for you with respect to the

3:02:52proposed driveways um so a lot of your transportation study expects that there'll be a signalized

3:03:01intersection at vaughn but the gordon street ea did not identify signalizing at gordon and vaughn

3:03:09so you know what the traffic volumes are on gordon do you have a backup plan for how to use the only

3:03:16all moves intersection uh into and off of gordon uh without that signalized intersection

3:03:26through you mayor gutery I will have to take that back to our transportation consultant and we will

3:03:31work through that with um city transportation staff okay um I know you're looking at all moves

3:03:38sorry just right in right out on arcle which I think is really important given the grade

3:03:48I would just note that your traffic report talks about arcle as a local road but it is arterial

3:03:54and my last question for you is with respect to waste management so the waste report that you

3:04:01submitted doesn't capture pool chemicals the beast throw the dining room or any potential for medical

3:04:07waste so your planning justification report says that it will be a private contractor but I'm wondering

3:04:14two things um uh how you manage that waste because it's different than a general residential building

3:04:20and also for the general apartments will they have three streams as per the city of guelph

3:04:29through you mayor gutery um I believe the three streams uh streams uh will be in effect for the

3:04:34development um but in terms of the management of pool chemicals I will have to get back to you

3:04:40and I will take that to um the engineers for this file to to look into in more detail

3:04:47it's just a matter of uh filling in that waste submission so that um that our staff have all

3:04:53the information that they need so um on the whole I think it's a positive development for the area

3:04:59I'm just concerned about traffic and parking thanks uh thank you councillor Salisbury has uh

3:05:10it looks like his questions were answered so go to councillor bell and then over to councillor buildings

3:05:17thank you to you mayor gutery um I read through all the reports and I couldn't find anywhere

3:05:27the provision of secure bicycle parking and the city is investing a fair bit of money on

3:05:34cycling infrastructure especially on gordon street and uh with the advent of electric bicycles more

3:05:41and more seniors are are riding around town on bicycles did I miss somewhere in the report

3:05:51where you are providing secure secure bicycle parking through you uh mayor gutery I do not

3:06:02believe any bicycle or secure bicycle parking is proposed in this first iteration um but that's

3:06:08something I can take back to the design team thanks very much and councillor billings through

3:06:19you mr mayor it's just because I can't tell but is there a separate courtyard for the memory care

3:06:27residents so that they can go outside through you uh mayor gutery uh yes there is a separate

3:06:35courtyard it's actually um if you're looking in the northeast corner of the site so close to our

3:06:42pal just on the interior side of the building there is a courtyard that will be secured for

3:06:48memory care uh residents okay so that'll just be that court work would just just be for memory care

3:06:57and that's my understanding okay okay thank you David thank you for your delegation and your

3:07:08your answers and willing willingness to take it back to get other answers for us and others so

3:07:12thank you very much all right thank you for the opportunity thanks you're welcome have a good

3:07:19night and our last delegation that has signed up is Susan Watson and can you hear me okay Susan

3:07:27I can can you hear me again yep for sure coming through loud and clear and thank you for joining

3:07:33us again and I'll start your your time right now go right ahead thank you mayor gutery and members

3:07:39of council on the face of it this development proposal for R. Kellan Gordon Street represents

3:07:46a compact efficient use of land while the site specific exemptions for setbacks and

3:07:52side yards may or may not be appropriate I note that the applicant is not looking for additional

3:07:57stories beyond the six-story maximum currently allowed on the site I think it's fair to put this

3:08:03kind of building height in the category of gentle density as someone who also recently completed a

3:08:11five-year journey with a parent who accessed both retirement and long-term care facilities

3:08:16I have some comments also based on lived experience given that 88 of the units are going to be assisted

3:08:23in memory care units I think that an increased density of units per hectare is reasonable

3:08:30as the representative of the proponent said in assisted and memory care facilities residents

3:08:35have a private room and bathroom but no kitchen or significant private living area dining facilities

3:08:41and socialized socializing areas are communal and so what this means is that more units or rooms can

3:08:48be accommodated per hectare than in a conventional apartment building and it's also unlikely that

3:08:55people living in the assisted and memory care units are still going to be driving although as

3:09:02councillor Caron pointed out they will however likely be having regular daily visits from personal

3:09:08support workers and family members residents have privately paid retirement care are eligible for

3:09:15outside PSW support through the local health integration network and the parking allocations

3:09:21need to reflect this reality questions are often posed at these planning meetings about whether or

3:09:28not affordable units will be included in a proposed development affordability is not the mandate of

3:09:35private retirement care when my dad was in the memory care unit at Riverside Glen the basic fee

3:09:42was four thousand three hundred dollars per month and that was without any personal support

3:09:48worker care through Riverside Glen added so more than fifty thousand dollars a year for basic care

3:09:56if you're looking at for dementia care at somewhere like the newly built high view facility in

3:10:01Kitchener it's going to set you back seven thousand dollars a month or more than eighty

3:10:07thousand dollars per year for one individual in long-term care the cost of a basic room is

3:10:14twenty three thousand dollars a year and full subsidies are available for low income seniors

3:10:20my concern is that a facility like the one that is being proposed is not just

3:10:24quote retirement living anymore it's essentially creeping privatization of senior health care

3:10:31someone who needs quote assisted living or assistance to live may need spoon feeding

3:10:37diapering or a Hoyer lift to get out of bed in the morning and memory care is a euphemism for an

3:10:43access controlled dementia care unit this type of senior care is completely unregulated we don't

3:10:51even have minimum legislative requirements for staff to resident ratios in long-term care homes

3:10:57let alone in retirement residences so what am i asking of a wealth city council on this file

3:11:04the fact that a developer sees potential profit in building 234 new units specifically for seniors

3:11:12should tell you that they are seeing something on the horizon to which governments at all levels

3:11:18are not paying attention the gray tsunami is about to hit seniors at the leading edge of the baby

3:11:26zoom people born between 1946 and 1964 are now turning 75 the need for elder care is about to

3:11:35balloon and prior to the pandemic we had 30 000 ontarians on the wait list for long-term care

3:11:43these are people who can no longer manage safely at home and who require care far beyond what an

3:11:49elderly partner or even younger family members are able to survive i have no doubt that this

3:11:55particular facility is going to be needed by those who can afford to pay for it but what about

3:12:02everyone else senior care simply cannot simply be left to the private sector under a for-profit model

3:12:11the pandemic laid bare the higher death counts in for-profit senior facilities

3:12:15where financial resources were siphoned off for shareholder dividends

3:12:20you as wealth city council need to be planning for construction and operation of a second

3:12:25elliot and yes that will mean lobbying the province for long-term care beds and infrastructure funds

3:12:32and i have appreciated that councillor orc has kept an eye on development charge allocation

3:12:38for long-term care facilities for the future the encroaching privatization of senior health care

3:12:45and end of life care is a predictable outcome of chronic underfunding the city of wealth needs

3:12:51to take an active role in doing its part to expand high quality high quality publicly delivered care

3:12:59thank you okay is there any questions for the delegation seeing none thank you thank you okay

3:13:12okay uh let me go to the phones now if there's anyone that wants to

3:13:27call in so we're going to take a three to five minute break and the number will be up on the screen

3:13:36and we'll come back here in just a few moments thank you okay i'll just call the meeting back

3:19:23to order we did have one person phone in to delegate we're just waiting for the name

3:19:29unless can you hear me um they're not in yet okay she she decided not to speak okay so that

3:20:22just to confirm we have none at this time is that right okay we have none at this time

3:20:27councillor oh would you like to move receipt i would be very happy to move receipt thank you

3:20:33councillor billings is seconding that uh for us tonight saw some other hands thank you councilors

3:20:39obviously everything has been captured that was relevant to the topic at hand

3:20:46uh and so is there anything further that needs to be stated tonight councillor or rork go ahead

3:20:57thanks mr maro so in the interest of time i have sent staff a number of questions so

3:21:03would you like me to just do comments and just sort of itemize the issues that were not

3:21:06discussed yeah whatever wasn't captured if you want to go through it just so it's captured in the

3:21:13public realm um so people know that uh that these matters would at least come back that'd be good

3:21:19yeah okay so um we've addressed the issue of waste the potential for overflow parking

3:21:24i have a concern about driveway b which uh is a write-in write out on arkall road

3:21:31i'm concerned about the amount of storage on arkall so that if somebody is eastbound waiting

3:21:36to make a turn there's a pedestrian on the sidewalk i'm not sure how much storage there is then for

3:21:41somebody who's making a turn uh quickly off of gordon so that's just a bit of a concern also

3:21:47the timing of the widening of arkall if a median in the center is going to be required

3:21:53i have a concern with the three meter setback from arkall road so we know arkall's extremely busy

3:22:01um and it's an arterial and we haven't left any room if you have a three meter setback there's

3:22:07no room for additional widening a multi-use path and i i think it will exacerbate the shadow that's

3:22:14cast to the neighboring property to the north it's already significant at 10 o'clock in December so

3:22:19that does two things the shadow impact on the neighbors but also the the reason we're talking

3:22:24about that grade is that arkall road is quite a steep hill and so i'd like to check with operations

3:22:30make sure if they have concerns around the iciness on that hill in the winter if it's in shadow

3:22:38so that is a concern of mine okay i do have a question with respect to parkland dedication

3:22:50and so as we increase the density significantly along gordon and arkall i'd like to know what the

3:22:55plan is to maintain the parkland ratio that's enshrined in the official plan so gordon and arkall

3:23:01in that area is taking a significant increase in population with the same amount of green space so

3:23:07i know that the ratios are citywide but i do want to recognize that there's increasing increasing

3:23:13pressure on the parkland that is there and we're seeing it in the pandemic i've asked to have to

3:23:20come back with a discussion around the timing for the intersection improvements at gordon and arkall

3:23:26the transportation study shows that that intersection at gordon and arkall

3:23:31fails in some measures 2025 and then it gets worse in 2030 and 2035 i've asked questions around the

3:23:39timing for the gordon street improvements and then that intersection improvement

3:23:45because the two will collide so i'm just trying to manage what the volume of traffic

3:23:50on gordon looks like and whether arkall becomes a cut through during that intensification period

3:23:57um yeah so i would like to know also what the plan is for a signalized intersection at vaughn

3:24:06because if there is no signalized intersection at vaughn it will be extremely problematic to use

3:24:10driveway a i'd like to know whether there'll be some crime prevention through environmental design

3:24:18because as we learned in previous um development applications it's actually lighting and things

3:24:27to read to keep the safety of the residents and so i'd like to know what the plan is for that

3:24:33and um you know i apologize for going quickly but this is a really significant change to what the

3:24:40residents thought was going to be built there which was 41 townhouses to a um massive building that is

3:24:48also a workplace so uh we i i do want to point out again um really concerned about traffic volumes

3:24:56on arkall the planning for the traffic transportation plan uh forecasts a total of 894 new units

3:25:04in addition to the high school in the next five years on arkall so more comfort around uh what's

3:25:12happening on that road and in the intersections will be very helpful um and i would also ask staff

3:25:19to make sure that there's been adequate consultation with the neighbors on malvern who are abutting

3:25:24and that the distance is sufficient for overlook and also for um i forget what you call them the

3:25:30angle piece um so this is quite significant for them and a big shift from what they had expected

3:25:37so i appreciate the follow-up on those concerns thanks mr mayor angular plane am i right all right

3:25:48sometimes i know stuff sometimes does anyone else want to take a shot at some comments on this

3:25:54with staff or has it been captured pretty good okay with that to move in seconded i will call

3:26:02a vote on receiving only all in favor of receiving only looks unanimous to me confirmed by the clerk

3:26:13excellent moving right along and again i gotta say it look at the time just be aware of time

3:26:23it's just a be aware of time moment 85 and 89 willow road this is now decision reports in front

3:26:33of us and it's no more than five minutes for these delegations based on the amount of delegations we

3:26:44have we have if there was no questions 50 minutes of delegations alone so i'm just doing the math okay

3:26:53so um let's start with video greg jones president of sky dev and can you turn your

3:27:06video on for us greg and can you hear me okay hear me okay yes i see you and hear you uh thanks

3:27:15for joining us greg and let me get my timer and you have uh up to five minutes if you need it and

3:27:24it starts right now go for it well thanks for having me your worship my name is greg jones

3:27:29i'm the president of sky dev sky dev now has over 3000 rental apartments at various stages of

3:27:35development across ontario or part of the skyline group of companies which owns and manages over 20

3:27:42000 rental apartments and 57 communities across eight provinces we are a rental housing provider

3:27:49based in guelph that believes doing good is good for business we are donating our time and our land

3:27:56as the applicant of the zoning amendment before you as you know this isn't the first time we've

3:28:02been before you provoke proposing a rental housing development in the city past discussions with city

3:28:09staff and council during our fountains street application highlighted an urgent need for affordable

3:28:14rental housing and wealth while i believe that more supply of all forms of housing and reducing

3:28:21taxation on new housing is paramount to addressing affordability we at skyline are a team of highly

3:28:28motivated people who take action and roll up our sleeves get results and tackling immediate community

3:28:35needs head on we welcome further discussions with city staff and councillors on current and

3:28:41future challenges where skyline continue to can continue to make strategic investments

3:28:47it is with great pride that we present to you an actionable permanent support of housing development

3:28:53this evening we have three property owners coming together to literally say yes in our backyard

3:29:00we have both skyline and starlight owners of 85 and 89 willow road proposing to donate their

3:29:07backyard to kindle communities a nonprofit landlord that will own and manage the development long term

3:29:14in a similar fashion how they've managed the shelledale center over the last 20 years we've made

3:29:20some minor minor modifications to the concept plans based on input from the community consultation

3:29:27staff and circulating agencies as noted in the staff report the bylaw before you maintains a five

3:29:34story building with the ground level dedicated to shared amenities and on-site support spaces

3:29:40and the upper level dedicated to 32 apartments we agree with the staff report bylaw and holding

3:29:46provisions proposed to advance this project to the site planning stage now these holding

3:29:52provisions are necessary to determine the exact easement locations required in the site plan

3:29:58review process and to advance the application to committee adjustment for the severances and

3:30:03easements required for us to donate the land to kindle communities your worship members of council

3:30:11skyline is before you again proposing housing for the people of wealth this time for those who need

3:30:17it most a home is a home regardless of a person's ability or income we respect the right to other

3:30:24delegations here tonight and request that the voice of the 32 people that will call this building home

3:30:30be considered in your decision so please stand with me stand with skyline starlight and kindle

3:30:37stand for permanent supportive homes as an essential need in your community by voting

3:30:43yes to the bylaw before you this evening it'd be my pleasure to answer any questions on the

3:30:48proposed amendment before you thank you thank you very much uh Greg let me see if there is a

3:30:55follow-up question from any of my colleagues and there isn't so thank you for joining us by both

3:31:01video and through audio thank you very much thank you just before I go to the next uh

3:31:07delegation who's getting ready who would be Hugh handy a reminder to the public uh that both

3:31:12councillor Caron and council or work have removed themselves from entering into the discussion on

3:31:19this as they did declare a conflict earlier tonight if you do see their screens turned off and

3:31:23no communication from them and they're just doing their job so with that I'll go to you

3:31:29Hugh handy who has joined us by video I see you can I hear you Hugh can you speak I hope so

3:31:35yep we can hear you yep and I will start your start your timer right now go for it

3:31:41uh thank you america three members of council my name is Hugh handy and I'm a land use planner

3:31:46with gsp group I'm here on behalf of the applicants this evening um we've reviewed the staff report as

3:31:55Greg Jones has mentioned we also would like to thank uh Katie Nazwater and the city staff for

3:32:00all their assistance with this application and recognizing the the tight timeframes that they

3:32:07were under but with that it's a very thorough report we're supportive of the recommendation

3:32:13the proposed zoning by-law before you this evening our application conforms to the official plan

3:32:20and is below the permitted height and density in the current zoning one of the main changes to the

3:32:26concept plan was the removal of the traffic circle and this was in part to address the concerns of

3:32:33the school board and has been addressed in the redesign if approved this evening as Mr

3:32:42Greg Jones mentioned there will be a holding provision and that's for the consolidation of

3:32:47the properties for access to confirm that servicing and storm water management all of these matters

3:32:55will need to be addressed before the H the holding is lifted so with that I'll be brief and come to

3:33:03the conclusion that we look for your support this evening and I'd be happy to answer any questions

3:33:11I'll thank you very much and let me see if there is any yes Councillor Salisbury has a question

3:33:15for you on the button there oh yeah can you hear me yes I can hear you thank you very much we can

3:33:25hear you yeah Hugh I have a question with regards to access to 81 Willow I was impressed with this

3:33:33design accommodating desire lines that seem to cut through numerous private properties and I was

3:33:41thinking I was kind of curious I went out and visited the site and just sort of saw what was

3:33:46happening and so those desire lines are quite strong but if under the the layout of the parking lot

3:33:54or the proposed parking lot and intersection is that right of way a guaranteed right of way to

3:34:00access the owner of 81 Willow should they decide to sever their property similarly

3:34:07through you Mayor Guthrie to Councillor Salisbury I don't think there would be a guarantee

3:34:15in it is obviously a desire line that we recognize that there's a number of I guess

3:34:23people and that want to move through here let me let me rephrase question I did because I've

3:34:31confused you with regards to access for vehicles

3:34:38currently it's a private laneway and that the only access would be what appears to be granted

3:34:44through the parking lot of 85 to get to 81 my question is just about about the maybe it's a

3:34:53question for staff as to whether that would be registered as an easement for access to that

3:34:59but then again yeah I don't know yeah well I guess it I guess as part of the holding

3:35:07access and easements will be reviewed with staff so I don't think we're at the final

3:35:14there are some things here with the school board with Kindle that need to be sorted out

3:35:21but I don't think it's a it's a deal breaker but that we were alert to the fact that that needs to

3:35:27be solved thank you very much I'm not not sure if I'm allowed to unmute myself Mayor Guthrie but

3:35:34I can answer that question if that helps oh um sorry this like ghostly voice just jumped out of

3:35:41nowhere unfortunately Greg I think that's you speaking no just from a procedural point of

3:35:50view we can't have you jump in but I will say that I did visually notice our head planner

3:35:56nod in agreement with some of the commentary from Hugh in reply to Councillor Salsbury's

3:36:03question so we can actually have our planner maybe jump in later on that just to confirm

3:36:08more than just the head nod and I'll make sure Councillor Salsbury if he needs to remind me

3:36:12to get that question out there publicly he can do so anything further for for Hugh nothing further

3:36:20so thank you very much for joining us appreciate it thank you David Estel can you hear me okay

3:36:27I sure can Mayor Guthrie all right David thanks a lot for yeah we can hear you fine and thank you

3:36:32for calling in and uh you're up to five minutes so starts right now as well go ahead thank you

3:36:38Mayor Guthrie and members of council my name is David Estel and I'm here this evening in my capacity

3:36:43as the volunteer chair of the board of directors of Kindle communities Kindle is a not-for-profit

3:36:49that's been part of the Onward Railroad community since taking ownership of the Shelldale Center

3:36:53around 2001 we pride ourselves in being a partner in the neighborhood providing much

3:36:57needed affordable space to organizations who do good in and around the Shelldale Center

3:37:02I humbly ask you to adopt the bylaws presented and recommended by staff Kindle wants to provide

3:37:07affordable housing in the city of Guelph and adopting this bylaw will help us do so we are

3:37:11lucky to have private sector support not only in their generous offer of a land donation but also

3:37:16in their time and expertise as evidenced by them being here tonight we're lucky to have the support

3:37:20of community services that surround us and support this project but we're not just lucky

3:37:25we're well established in the area and we're experienced in owning and operating facilities

3:37:29adopting this bylaw will provide Kindle and our partners the chance to increase the

3:37:33affordable housing stock in Guelph affordable housing is not an emergency shelter or transitional

3:37:38housing we're making permanent affordable housing where people can live and thrive

3:37:42it has been said that society can be judged by how it treats its most vulnerable citizens and

3:37:46providing them with long-term affordable housing allows people to be treated with dignity and

3:37:50respect this bylaw won't just help make space for people to live will help make space for people

3:37:56to prosper the residents will be able to live in an energy efficient and well-maintained building

3:38:01the neighbors will benefit from increased lighting increased community connections their new pathways

3:38:05and road crosswalks and the city of Guelph will increase our housing stock and helping all residents

3:38:10with regards to energy use it's near and dear to my heart personally I live in a net zero house

3:38:15including our cars where we've electrified everything and generated as much electricity as we use

3:38:19since Kindle is a long-term owner for this building we're incentivized to lower operating

3:38:24expenses as much as possible I understand the benefits of energy efficiency and we'll be energy

3:38:29conscious as we move forward Kindle has been in this neighborhood for two decades and we plan on

3:38:33being here for the decades to come adopting this bylaw will allow us to move forward and providing

3:38:37affordable housing in alignment with the strategic plan as laid out in the staff report on behalf

3:38:42of myself Kindle and of 32 future residents I would like to thank staff for your hard work on this

3:38:47file and counsel for your time here if you have any questions thank you very much thank you David

3:38:56and thank you for your time giving to the board as well is there any questions for this delegate

3:39:04seeing and hearing none so thank you very much for your time thank you have great night you as well

3:39:11and Kim richer can you hear me Kim hello hello we can hear you great thanks for calling in tonight

3:39:20I'll just start the clock here for you have up to five minutes if you need it you go right ahead

3:39:26thank you hello mayor gut three and counselors thank you for the opportunity to delegate this

3:39:32evening my name is Kim richer I'm a neighbor I'm a neighbor I'm a neighbor from the onward willow

3:39:40neighborhood I'm a mother and one of my children attends willow road public school I've been an

3:39:46active volunteer in the neighborhood for 16 years and I still am presently I also have lived experience

3:39:54of homelessness mental health addiction and poverty I'm speaking to you this evening in support of

3:40:01approving the zoning bylaw amendment for 85 and 89 willow road as someone who spends a lot of time

3:40:09in the area of the neighborhood accessing services and being involved in the community

3:40:15I'm in favor of this for a number of reasons but I'll focus on just three especially with time

3:40:24one improving safety with better lighting and pathway pathways as a longtime volunteer I know

3:40:33having proper lighting and pathways in this area has been a topic of conversation at many

3:40:39committees adding lighting and improving pathways will improve safety especially for families

3:40:45accessing services to the project is complementary to the neighborhood I think the plan design and

3:40:55type of housing is appropriate for the neighborhood and is complementary to nearby transformations

3:41:02happening to improve community programming and shared outdoor space three lastly as someone

3:41:10with children I'm excited about the addition of a proper crosswalk which will improve community

3:41:17safety thank you for the opportunity to share my support I hope you will consider approving this

3:41:24zoning bylaw amendment and benefiting our community as a result thank you thank you Kim for calling

3:41:34in we appreciate your opinions on on this as well let's just see if there's a question for you

3:41:40and I don't see or hear any so thanks a lot for calling in thank you yep bye bye

3:41:47Joanne Young Evans from the family counseling and support services for Guelph Wellington

3:41:52hi Joanne can you hear me okay and Joanne it's uh it's Mayor Guthrie can you hear me okay

3:42:09do you know clerks if we have an issue with Joanne or we'll skip okay uh Dana and Natalie can you hear

3:42:21me okay uh yeah can you hear me yeah how you doing tonight good good good it's good to hear your

3:42:28voice thanks for calling in and uh thank you for your opinions you can go right ahead and give it

3:42:34to us now thank you great thank you good evening Mayor Guthrie city counselors and staff I'd like

3:42:40to begin by thanking council for prioritizing permanent supportive housing as you all know it's a

3:42:47huge need not just in this city but across the province and the country I'd like to thank Kindle

3:42:53Starlight and Skyline for choosing Almond Willow for their permanent supportive housing project

3:43:00and the site they've chosen couldn't be any more perfect as a longtime resident and someone who attended

3:43:07Shelby Hill School from kindergarten two grade six that field has been nothing but a vacant lot

3:43:16for 50 plus years so it's a welcome addition to put anything on that space and lastly last meeting

3:43:27I heard a lot of opposition speak about many different things including density parking and

3:43:35what would happen if funding was pulled and these are my community members like these are my

3:43:42neighbors and I know they were speaking about their community with passion so I would just like to

3:43:48encourage anybody in opposition to maybe channel their passion and get involved in a way that your

3:43:55concerns can get heard and addressed in a safe and equitable manner you know we all want what's

3:44:02best for the community and I think if we can all you know channel our passions in a good way we can

3:44:09make something you know we can turn this project into something that will be you know fantastic

3:44:17and you know that's all I got to say thank you well thanks Dan thank you so much let me see if

3:44:23there's a follow-up question to you and there isn't so have a great night okay you too thank you

3:44:30thank you we're going to go back to Joanne and are you okay Joanne I certainly can your worship

3:44:39how are you this evening I'm great thank you so much for calling in and sorry we missed you there

3:44:44but we didn't forget you so we're worried back to you and I'll start the clock right now okay you go

3:44:50right ahead well good evening your worship counselors staff and other attendees my name

3:44:56is Joanne Young-Avans and I'm the executive director for family counseling and support services for

3:45:01Guelph Wellington I want to take a few minutes to highlight our agency's support for the 85 and 89

3:45:07Willow Road Zoning By-law amendment as many of you know SESGW soon to be rebranded on June 1st

3:45:15is an integral part of the community strengthening individual couple and family life assisting those

3:45:21dealing with physical sexual and emotional abuse trauma supporting people with developmental

3:45:27challenges and those caring for them we offer walking clinics and employee assistance program

3:45:33a seven-day week telephone crisis line and many other critical programs and services

3:45:38in March of 2020 we moved our head office to 20 Sheldale Crescent to expand our office space

3:45:44and work even more closely with our partners some of whom are located at this site upon hearing of

3:45:50Kindle's vision for a supportive housing unit near 20 Sheldale we were thrilled we all know the

3:45:56challenges and opportunities that council has faced in increasing supportive housing in our

3:46:01community for which there is a critical shortage in a previous life I was the executive director of

3:46:08Guelph Independent Living part of GIL's portfolio of services in Guelph is operating a rent gear to

3:46:17income mixed market apartment complex on Willow Road the apartment complex also contains a number

3:46:24of supportive housing units complete with 24-hour seven-day a week support for those tenants who

3:46:30call this building home many have lived there for decades GIL's head office had been located in the

3:46:36basement of the apartment complex for many years and so we experienced firsthand living and working

3:46:42with all of our tenants in the building and the community and the building it created

3:46:47it's unfortunate that you are unable to see my face at the moment as it has a smile because if my

3:46:53memory serves me correctly any challenges we had with the tenants were not from those living in

3:46:58the supportive housing unit I do not have the available time this evening to relate the numerous

3:47:04client stories from here at FDSS GW however I'm sure you've seen the research from the vital signs

3:47:10reports research and data from CMHA Waterloo Wellington and more a home with proper supports

3:47:17assists many of our residents with health challenges and that includes mental health

3:47:22a home provides sanctuary a foundation and the supports that will be housed within the building

3:47:27provided by such organizations as the Gualt Community Health Center and others and from those

3:47:32of us close by will not only help create a better life for residents but one with dignity and

3:47:38independence and a significant reduction in health care costs that is the icing on the proverbial

3:47:44cake at this point in time of those developmental service clients that we work with who are looking

3:47:50for supportive housing they are looking at an eight year wait eight years of living with relatives

3:47:59couch surfing on the streets or worse yet being trafficked this building may only be

3:48:0533 units however it is 33 units more than we will have than we have today and we will continue to

3:48:12make a difference one unit at a time we must our residents deserve a home and proper supports

3:48:21for those who campaign against this building many are afraid and unsure of what this will do

3:48:27to the surrounding community it will do nothing to take away from our current environment

3:48:32and continue to add to the diversity that we are known for in addition the plans that Kindle has

3:48:38provided include green space increased lighting and more it will be in our backyard literally

3:48:45a campaign was launched yinbi to counteract the nimbi or banana syndrome which is an acronym for

3:48:52build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything or anyone just like fighting the stigma of mental

3:48:59health we continue to fight the stigma of supportive housing in all my years at gil and working in this

3:49:06community i fail to see the downside of such a development and continue to see the opportunities

3:49:12it offers residents and the community as a whole as we get sgw will be here to offer supports

3:49:18hopefully house some of our clients and continue to be one of wealth critical service providers

3:49:23to some of our most vulnerable residents thank you for the opportunity to speak this evening

3:49:28and for your continued continued consideration of this important development

3:49:34thank you thank you very much for your delegation and let me just see if there's a follow-up question

3:49:38for you which there is not so thank you for sharing your opinions and have a good night

3:49:44thank you so much you too good night thank you uh our next person on the list is not available

3:49:53so we're skipping to a video um a delegation donna haskett don i see you're coming on the screen

3:50:02can you just uh make sure your video goes on for us there you are great can you hear me okay

3:50:17oh i think you might be muted still i'm sorry you're still you're still muted um you don't happen

3:50:36to have headphones connected by accident do you no that's the the degree of my it availability

3:50:49i can't do much more than that uh can you hear me okay can you give me a thumbs up if you can

3:50:54hear me you can okay well that's only half good maybe 49 good so uh why don't we why don't we

3:51:03pause with you don't worry we'll pause okay and i'm gonna go to somebody else but oh wait okay don't

3:51:21donna can you speak for me to see if we can hear you no i'm sorry so so just okay this is this is

3:51:31fun it's kind of like we're doing this sounds like two syllables it's a movie yeah i think maybe

3:51:45what's best is we'll we'll we'll call you if that's okay and then that way we we want to hear your

3:51:51delegation right so let's let's we now at least know what you look like so that part's good

3:51:56what let let our clerks call you and we'll we'll get that set up and as that's happening

3:52:01i'm going to go just to the next couple of delegations we won't skip over you i promise okay

3:52:06all right so we'll say goodbye to you there for a moment i'll let clerks help you out

3:52:10and now at this time is is polymonical uh available speaking great we can hear you

3:52:19yeah good evening thanks for joining us and uh you go right ahead and you have up to five minutes

3:52:25you can go and start right now okay okay good evening mr mr mayor and city counselors

3:52:32thank you for the opportunity to speak on the permanent hub supportive housing proposal the

3:52:39residential and and intensification analysis states that the area of strategic growth should be

3:52:48downtown this area is not an intensification corridor according to the city's urban design

3:52:56action plan this is not an opportune place for development the world world corridor contains

3:53:03numerous townhouses six high rise buildings two and two story apartments and a few residential

3:53:11homes we don't have the capacity in this neighborhood for more density there are some new proposals

3:53:20that would include two five-story buildings at the corner of wallone dosing roads two buildings at

3:53:27111 and 193 silver creek silver creek parkway at willow west mall 148 units in total 146 units

3:53:38at 265 edinburgh road next to the cemetery with the possibility of one or two more buildings

3:53:47taking green space from here is contrary to the city's principle for growth that is

3:53:54ensuring accessible and connected space a park and trail system and a sustainable network of

3:54:03recreational facilities so the only issue we have with the permanent support housing is that more

3:54:12density will be created we trust that the density in this area will be thoroughly researched thank

3:54:20you very much for all you for all that you do for us mr mayor oh thank yes thank you that i i had to

3:54:32pause because of the the ending there where you said thank you so thank you very much okay you're

3:54:37welcome and let me just see if there's a follow-up question for you and let's i'm just looking here

3:54:42and listening no there's nothing at this time so we do appreciate you calling in and giving us your

3:54:46opinions thank you very much you're welcome okay bye bye bye bye bye so did you want to go back to

3:54:56to donna now is she available yeah donna can you hear me okay i can hear you just fine mayor

3:55:03okay well you're coming through clear so we we're sorry about the camera there but

3:55:08we can we can at least hear you for sure so thank you very much for joining us and giving us your

3:55:13opinions tonight let's uh let's let me start the clock and you go right ahead okay good evening

3:55:19your worship and honorable counselors and residents of guelph i absolutely support the

3:55:23fantastic program however i am extremely concerned that it's the wrong location due to my lived

3:55:30experience in this neighborhood we have different opinions and our democracy is very important

3:55:35and it's those opinions need to be given a full hearing and airing before the decision makers

3:55:41it's that should it's that which should occur only after there has been a proper open house

3:55:48meeting in consultation with the community which the partners will tell you has been done

3:55:53and when i say the community i'm speaking of the people that actually live in the location

3:55:59where this housing is to be established many believe this to be the wrong location and

3:56:03thus resulting in negative impacts these impacts need to be fully explored regarding safety to

3:56:09residents of the proposed building and the many surrounding children's learning centers

3:56:15decisions are properly made in democracies and right decisions are made when the process has

3:56:21been followed in a full and balanced way this has not been possible in this case because of

3:56:26covid this process should always be necessary and especially so when one is talking about this type

3:56:32of special needs housing for land use permanent supportive housing the word permanent means that

3:56:38we're looking at a decision that'll have long-term effects for many years to come 10 to 20 years at

3:56:44minimum an accurate and due process for making highly impactful decisions on behalf of the public

3:56:50is a full and proper process of open house hearings i will now show because i can the

3:56:57notice that went out for the open house submissions which i know a lot of you have already seen

3:57:01this occurred on december 14 and 15 2020 and you'll see that this is not traditional nor normal

3:57:08as it requires rsvp and only five persons could attend inside at a time due to covid protocols

3:57:15my son and i attended as did a few other residents i know we were rushed and we didn't get all our

3:57:20questions answered some of us were misinformed and some of us were asked to leave and it was just

3:57:25not a proper and full opportunity to openly and transparently express and share views the pandemic

3:57:32also prevented many elderly members of the immediate area from attending due to health concerns

3:57:38documents of attendees input has also not been shared so therefore the process has not been

3:57:44collaborative and or transparent it's premature to make a decision now that will have long term

3:57:51lasting effects for years to come the emergency of covid required that this not be a full hearing

3:57:57but that will change in the near future and thus i submit that this decision be postponed until such

3:58:03time as there can be no limitation on public gatherings if that can occur in september fully

3:58:08and properly then a decision can still be made in 2021 i cross-reference here the city official plan

3:58:19required for land use and zoning for special needs housing immediate neighbor compatibility

3:58:26and community integration as they relate to the wealthly report regarding the best practices of

3:58:32permanent supportive housing surrounding neighborhoods chosen for location must be safe

3:58:37and supportive have neighborhood acceptance and cooperation to ensure the tenants get the best

3:58:42start and are accepted and included into the community therefore this permanent decision

3:58:48requires proper community involvement and discussion appropriate research to be submitted

3:58:53and shared questions to be answered and concerns such as safety to the residents of the building

3:58:58as they will be in the ward with the highest crime rate to be aired and married with mitigation

3:59:03strategies this needs to take place adequately and especially because the willow road neighborhood

3:59:09is a highly vulnerable and extremely dead children's hub this must take place democratically with the

3:59:15immediate surrounding residents i'm trusting based on the mayor's own admission that listening

3:59:21learning finding solutions and creating a community that includes everyone is important to him and as

3:59:26he said to me rest assured stopping engagement is both not allowed nor something any of us would

3:59:31ever consider advocating for that this can still take place it would be unjust to expedite such

3:59:37an important long-term use of land for such a sensitive project without fair and proper democratic

3:59:43and inclusive processes wealth has been incredibly diligent with pandemic protocols and i'm

3:59:50optimistic that this can be done only a few months from now your worship and honorable

3:59:55counselors tonight i implore you to please make the right decision on behalf of an extremely

4:00:01vulnerable high needs neighborhood and i respectfully request that you table the zoning amendment

4:00:06decision until we have adequate and sufficient input mitigating any negative impacts to the

4:00:11residents who will be living and learning beside the special needs housing as well as the residents

4:00:16that will live inside the permanent housing union based based on my supportive documents the type

4:00:22of land use deserves the highest scrutiny due to its long-term just another few seconds uh

4:00:28just another few seconds and you're you're going to be over time okay i'm gonna have to cut you in

4:00:31about 15 seconds go ahead okay uh it deserves the highest scrutiny due to its long-term vulnerable

4:00:37nature and and location beside the school daycare and youth program yours for wealth challenge youth

4:00:42people play and learn regarding long-term effects please do the right thing and make sure that you're

4:00:47making the right decision we cannot choose our neighbors and everyone deserves a home and we all

4:00:51deserve democracy and to be heard despite the horrendous pandemic we're all suffering through

4:00:55to date this is fair and this fair and undaunt thank you don't thank you thank you i'm sorry i got to

4:01:01cut you off there uh you're just a little bit over time but we do we do appreciate you um coming

4:01:06back on and making sure that we could hear you so let me see if there's any further questions for you

4:01:13and there's none so thank you very much for your giving us your opinions tonight thank you dominica

4:01:22mcpherson from the guelphan wellington task force for poverty elimination dominica can you hear me okay

4:01:30yes i can okay you know the drill go ahead i do thanks uh good evening uh mayor guthrie and members

4:01:39of council uh thank you for the opportunity to delegate this evening on behalf of the guelphan

4:01:44wellington task force for poverty elimination uh in favor of the zoning bylaw amendment for 85 and

4:01:4989 willow road for kindle communities to develop permanent supportive housing for individuals

4:01:54experiencing homelessness as you know our community has a critical need for this type of housing and

4:01:59i'd like to acknowledge kindle communities and partners in overcoming seemingly unsurmountable

4:02:04odds associated with very limited land options little funding and stigma to bring this project

4:02:10to this point 85 and 89 willow road is a perfect location to be zoned for this type of housing

4:02:17it is best practice for this type of housing to be located in a residential neighborhood in

4:02:21close proximity to public transit employment opportunities neighborhood amenities and community

4:02:27based services as this location is this location is also in close proximity to schools and other

4:02:33services accessed by families with children which does not preclude this type of housing from being

4:02:38located nearby evidence supports that this type of housing can be located in neighborhoods near

4:02:44schools with no issues and with support from the community i'm also confident this project will

4:02:49support increased well-being and a safer neighborhood for future tenants and neighbors alike especially

4:02:55with some of the intentional planning being done to honor existing use of this location with improved

4:03:00pathways crossings and lighting informed by community consultation the proposed project is

4:03:07also following best practice in its planning overall for this type of housing including on

4:03:11key pieces such as parking and design with the extensive consideration that has been given to

4:03:17the appropriate use best practice considerations and evidence informed planning i'm confident that

4:03:23building permanent supportive housing at this location will have positive outcomes this zoning

4:03:28changes timely and if approved is something to be proud of as this project will help to ensure

4:03:34that everyone in our community has a safe and affordable place to call home and i'll just end

4:03:40on that taking this opportunity to just thank everyone who's played an incredible role in helping

4:03:44to make it possible for this project to reach this point so thank you so much for your time

4:03:48tonight and for the opportunity to speak with you thank you dominica for your your opinions and

4:03:56your delegation tonight and just looking to see if there's any follow-up questions for you

4:04:02and there is not so thank you very much thank you and just before i go to our last

4:04:09delegation just so everyone is aware on our list we had benny monico with drew earlier tonight so

4:04:17if you saw me skip over that name i didn't do that on purpose well i did do it on purpose

4:04:23because he withdrew but that's didn't want you to think i i did it for any other reason barb mcfee

4:04:30is actually someone who called in in time to register and barb can you hear me okay yes again

4:04:39thanks barb you're gonna you're gonna end off our delegations tonight so we appreciate you calling

4:04:43in and being a part of it and giving us your opinions you go right ahead thank you good evening

4:04:49mayor gester and counselors i am here way past my bedtime in support of the zoning bylaw amendment

4:04:57at 85 and 89 willow that will allow kindle communities to build permanent supportive housing

4:05:03i'm a longtime community member of the onward willow neighborhood i raised my children in this

4:05:08neighborhood i moved away but i moved back again because the neighborhood is so supportive i'm also

4:05:14an active community volunteers and have been involved with the onward willow neighborhood

4:05:19group shall they're centered for over 30 years now i'm actively involved with the poverty task force

4:05:25the guac neighborhood support coalition i'm also someone who was lived experience of homelessness

4:05:30and struggling with low income and various health issues and what i am thrilled about is that this

4:05:36project is going to be in my immediate backyard when i think about this location currently is

4:05:42dingy with dead trees and garbage next to an empty parking lot at night it is dark and

4:05:47unfriendly space and there are no lights which makes it very uncomfortable to go walking to the

4:05:52space when i think about this project being built there it will be a beautiful building surrounded

4:05:57by lots of green space with trees i think the space will be used more often as community space

4:06:04and it will have lighting and better pathways i think it will enhance the neighborhood and make

4:06:09it more vibrant and a safe place for all the neighbors we're all worth having decent um

4:06:16we're all worth having decent lives and respect and trust without judgment and beautiful homes

4:06:21and vibrant neighborhoods to live in that is actually what the support of housing building

4:06:27will create for many and i certainly am in full support and i hope you are too

4:06:32thank you well thanks barb and uh because you're past your bedtime we have only 13 questions for you

4:06:42just kidding uh we appreciate you calling in let me see if there is any questions for real

4:06:51no there isn't so thanks a lot barb you have yourself a great night okay

4:06:54okay thanks okay that was that was our last um for that the james g1 though that for sure was a

4:07:05skipped that okay just want to make sure okay so yeah that's it everybody and so um councillor

4:07:14mckinnon go ahead i care like they move the recommendation thank you uh and seconded i'll

4:07:23go by uh councillor hoffman just put up her hand there uh first and let's go to any are there any

4:07:31questions at all any questions at all let me so councillor Allt i saw you and councillor hoffman

4:07:39i think for comments so i'll just put you on my list for comments first and second uh councillor

4:07:44salisbury good to go back to you first i think maybe a little wrap up question um from earlier

4:07:49and then councillor Goller on a question go ahead councillor salisbury it was i was wondering if staff

4:07:53could confirm uh that there is some form of of uh ensuring that access to the rear parcel of 81 willow

4:08:06is not uh prevented is permitted with this that there's some type of easement or some type of uh

4:08:14well the quite i guess the question is because is there some kind of an easement or

4:08:18process of ensuring that access to the building to that 81 willow property as well as desire lines

4:08:26under private property i was just curious about that through you mayor Guthrie to councillor

4:08:34salisbury um when we looked at this uh severance application for this site as it was noted in the

4:08:41in the staff report that it does require a severance application for not only the property itself

4:08:46at 89 plus 85 as well as servicing these mints will be required um we can have the discussion

4:08:52with 81 81 is not part of this development application so i do want to make that clear that

4:08:58yes there is desire lines across the back of 81 um willow and you can see that on mapping so we

4:09:04will take a look at it skyline also owns 38 dawson so there might be a an opportunity to connect

4:09:11through to that property i think i think my concern is we're establishing a a fabric of of that of

4:09:18that land ownership uh that those rear properties were severed on those two on the first two um

4:09:25logic would suggest they would be you know the the third may consider that at some point in the

4:09:30future um but would uh but it appears on the on the entrance way to the to the proponents property

4:09:37that it could be accommodated the only concern i would have is that that would be

4:09:41uh uh sort of having control over the other property's ability to access so as long as

4:09:48there's some sort of a mechanism where this is explored and satisfactorily to your to your

4:09:54satisfaction resolved then then i'm i'm i'm good but i i sort of noticed that i didn't uh this property

4:10:01was it came up they they they were pretty quick pretty quick to get this uh back before council so

4:10:08i didn't catch it the first time and and i just want i just noticed that when i was looking at

4:10:12it earlier thank you and councillor gohler has a question uh thank you for your worship i just

4:10:23wanted to get clarification on something that uh a delicate mention when they alleged that there

4:10:29hadn't been a proper community engagement if i could just hear from staff it's my understanding

4:10:35that we only are legally responsible for for um two public meetings one which was held at city

4:10:43council and this one here could you just confirm that there's no other requirements uh to to have

4:10:49stakeholder engagement thank you through you marigath read a councillor gohler so in attachment

4:10:5612 to the staff report we do outline the engagement that we as the city undertook um and that is in

4:11:02accordance with the planning act including the notice of public meeting in the public meeting

4:11:06itself the statutory public meeting which was held on march 8 that is the requirements that we are

4:11:11we are obliged to fulfill and those were completed the developer and user provider service provider

4:11:19did host their own um engagement um however that is not a city requirement so there was above and

4:11:26beyond that requirements okay thank you very much that's my question worship just thank you for

4:11:34bringing that clarity question to the table i appreciate that councillor Allt to commentary i

4:11:41think councillor hoff one had her hand up as well thank you very much mayor guthrie

4:11:50that i've been dealing with uh for some time i want to thank kindle for its leap of faith

4:11:57on this issue and on this project i also want to thank concerned residents such as donna

4:12:03benny james and uh and dana and barb who have uh expressed differing points of views and concerns

4:12:12and i think it's very important that is understood that the concerns that have been raised have not

4:12:18been about supportive housing but rather have become conflated with safety issues and that's a

4:12:24legitimate concern in the willow road area and i'm not going to be facetious when i'm stating it but

4:12:31these range from everything from feral cats to coyotes to problems with uh with uh substance

4:12:38abuse within the neighborhood these are the issues that have that raise the hackles and the concerns

4:12:44of many people but the people themselves are good people who believe in their neighborhood

4:12:51and it is time i believe for the city to show its support in stronger ways for a neighborhood

4:12:58broadly defined as willow road shelledale crescent and applewood crescent this is a community

4:13:06that for the last 40 years through the better beginnings project actively was engaged in an

4:13:12experiment that has worked and it worked because of the commitment of various governments and it

4:13:20has led to three and four generations believing that the willow road area is the place that they

4:13:26should live the shelledale better better beginning program started with a great deal of skepticism

4:13:34in the applewood and the willow road area and i think as a city we can do better to

4:13:40ally some of the skepticism that the community overcame very quickly i think although we have

4:13:46a splash pad and a basketball court in the area we need to recognize that we need to go beyond that

4:13:54we also need to appreciate the tremendous provincial support that's been poured into that

4:13:59area the support of people also like the late mayor norm jerry the m our mp liz sandals from the past

4:14:07residents like charlie whitaker who believed that a neighborhood could come together despite the fact

4:14:13that it has the lowest socioeconomic character in the city and the highest density we can't forget

4:14:22that donna was is quite correct if you start at london road and you start to count the high

4:14:28rises between london road and the hand on expressway on willow road you will see a density like no

4:14:36other in guelph there are a minimum of 27 story apartment buildings in that area what we as a city

4:14:44need to do to ally concerns is to ensure that we put our money where our mouths are and make

4:14:50certain that the facilities are there to support not just supportive housing but a neighborhood

4:14:56that believes in itself the challenges are intense but the community embraced them and they embraced

4:15:03a vision we now have onward willow neighborhood group we have the shell del center and dare i say

4:15:10we have the guelph neighborhood support coalition because it began with a vision in that particular

4:15:17area i went to willow road school in its first year and this gives me faith because at that time

4:15:24with apologies to monti python we went to school in a swamp and that's not a joke that's a fact we

4:15:31only went to school half a day so they could finish the school we need as a city to show the same

4:15:37faith in the community and let's prove that yimby can work i believe that it can but we need to be

4:15:45there and we need to be with the donnas and the benes and the danes and the barbs and people within

4:15:50that community that love that community and want to stay there and want to see it thrive for everyone

4:15:56in supportive housing in single family dwellings and everything in between we can do it and i'm happy

4:16:03to support this and happy to support the community that raise their concerns and councillor hoffland

4:16:15thank you mayor thank you mayor baffrey because of the late hour i will be brief i am supportive

4:16:25of this staff recommendation these amendments will allow as we all know 32 supportive housing

4:16:32units which will only begin to address the needs of those requiring permanent supportive housing

4:16:40i have learned that creating permanent supportive housing for those who are homeless is a cost

4:16:46effective solution that is proven over and over to improve people's lives and assist and address

4:16:56their complex needs this has been an outstanding collaboration with many community partners

4:17:07something that we do exceptionally well in wealth and yes dominica i will support

4:17:18the proposal with great pride thank you so much councillor hoffland is there any other

4:17:27comments at all before i look to call the vote okay just mine then mine will also be very brief

4:17:36we as a community have very much embraced our vision and goal to try to end homelessness by 2023

4:17:47the vote that we take tonight helps us i believe closer to achieving that goal and we

4:17:52should all be very proud with that i'll take the vote all in favor please raise your hand

4:18:00i don't see anyone against i think that's unanimous it's unanimous thank you very much

4:18:05it's confirmed by the clerk at this time i will ask for councillor or orc i don't know if they're

4:18:10listening and um and councillor Caron to come back on and i just need a moment everybody okay just to

4:18:23confer with uh with city staff for a moment okay thank you thank you everyone for that just a

4:18:57couple with a couple seconds there um let's uh be aware of our time and but because of being aware

4:19:05of our time um we're going to get through the presentations of our our staff uh quickly and

4:19:12and off to the two delegations that have signed up uh before we do that um staff feel that um you

4:19:19know obviously we're still needing to debate or discuss if we need to and that we have to have

4:19:23the time for that but that we they're ready to help us uh at least move us to a point of wanting

4:19:28to make a decision whichever way that goes as quickly as possible they're prepped and our

4:19:33delegations are prepped and have been waiting all night i want to respect that time can i have a

4:19:38councillor look to just move us to go past 11 o'clock uh please at this time thanks why don't

4:19:43we go to councillor Caron and councillor or orc the two that weren't with us for the last little while

4:19:48they went for a walk around the block so they're ready to go for a couple more hours i'm sure

4:19:53so they're moving to go past 11 thank you for doing that with that i'll call the vote on going

4:19:57past 11 all in favor to go past 11 please raise your hand and is there anyone that is against

4:20:08got to councillor Goller and councillor Allt so that does pass thank you very much

4:20:14and let's go right away to uh david and then stacey the two of them will have a staff presentation

4:20:21and then to our delegations uh david go right ahead sorry my my apologies all right i'm going to

4:20:45try that again and share that presentation so good evening mayor and members of council i'm

4:20:59david agrut i'm a senior urban designer with the city of guelph and uh stacey lachlan senior

4:21:06policy planner myself will be taking you through this presentation um steven robinson our senior

4:21:11heritage planner melissa al denaute and christa walkie are here to answer questions and we will

4:21:17make it um a little bit brief briefer than we are planning as requested so this is the area

4:21:22that we're talking about tonight and so basically it's bounded by the metro links lines um stevensson

4:21:30and york road so this is uh the recommendation report we've gone through a number of um engagement

4:21:40procedures to get to this point and so i'm going to concentrate a little bit about what we heard

4:21:46in our 2021 engagement which was based on a survey that we completed in february present a virtual

4:21:52open house and a presentation to heritage wealth and so it all 162 people responded

4:21:59to our survey and that was based on the review of the draft land use study

4:22:06in general we there was support for the land use changes as well as the conclusions and

4:22:12recommendations in the proposed draft land use study there was support for the land use changes

4:22:19and especially for pedestrian cycling improving pedestrian cycling throughout the area as well

4:22:24appropriate intensification in this area other common topics that were raised included road safety

4:22:34improving transportation connections and parkland dedication and there were also some concerns

4:22:39expressed regarding the direction to list cultural heritage resources which we'll get into a little

4:22:44bit later so this is the recommended vision and principles and goals for this area and really

4:22:54what this project is meant to do is to provide land use direction for the municipal comprehensive

4:23:00review which is also called shaping wealth as well as the official plan review and to provide

4:23:06direction for ongoing and future city projects the draft vision on the screen was developed

4:23:12based on engagement that we've received throughout this project and really this area is about

4:23:17allowing for intensification and as well including employment opportunities within

4:23:24this area and some residential intensification without alternative over to Stacy to walk through

4:23:29the changes thank you David so the study area currently includes a range of land use designations

4:23:37with a significant portion designated as mixed business and industrial and both of those are

4:23:43employment designations there's also some commercial service commercial mixed office commercial

4:23:49and some pockets of low density residential and the existing commercial mixed use center

4:23:54designation that was brought in through the city's commercial policy review we were proposing to

4:23:59retain that designation at the intersection of York Road and Victoria Road so moving on to the

4:24:04proposed land uses the recommended land use study proposes that the area will remain predominantly

4:24:12an employment area while making some notable changes along York Road to allow for some development

4:24:17and change along the corridor based on the land use compatibility work completed as part of the

4:24:23background for this project we're recommending that sensitive land uses such as residential

4:24:29only be introduced where they will not impact the viability of existing employment uses so when

4:24:35we presented the draft it kind of went over in detail all of the specific changes but just a

4:24:41high level overview is that we're adding the mixed business designation along the north side of York

4:24:46and in a few other locations we're adding the mixed office commercial designation and a number of

4:24:51areas to generally recognize the mix of uses that are already existing in those areas we are adding

4:24:57medium density residential on the north of the lee side of York Road in the eastern portion of the

4:25:02study area to allow for some residential intensification and while not strictly a land use designation

4:25:08change we are proposing that the city own property at 106 Beaumont Crescent become a neighborhood park

4:25:14with respect to modifications to the land use study since the draft we've made

4:25:22the following changes so that mixed business land use designation the changes we had originally

4:25:27proposed the intent was to ensure that that designation would support the existing employment

4:25:33uses and continue to encourage small and medium size entrepreneurial entrepreneurial and incubator

4:25:40businesses at the same time we wanted to make sure that uses permitted in that designation

4:25:45would be compatible with both industrial users users and the existing residential in the area

4:25:53so therefore become sort of a buffer land use between those land uses so when we released

4:25:59the draft land use study we heard that the 950 square meter cap that we were we were proposing

4:26:06was not large enough to accommodate medium size businesses so the recommended land use study

4:26:11does not include a cap on the business size however it provides general guidance that

4:26:16businesses larger than about 1500 square meters should be more appropriately located in other

4:26:21employment areas in the city the proposed policy allows for the exact cap if it's needed for business

4:26:29sizes to be determined through future development applications and that can be dependent upon the

4:26:34nature of the business and compatibility with the surrounding area we also heard that not permitting

4:26:40outdoor storage in the mixed business designation may be limiting for some existing and proposed

4:26:45businesses so to increase the flexibility while still considering compatibility we recommended

4:26:53that outdoor storage be permitted in the land use designation however not immediately adjacent to

4:26:58residential or other sensitive land uses there was a request to retain the existing mixed office

4:27:05commercial land use designation along the frontage of 10 Kings Mills so we did retain that land use

4:27:11designation and we provided some clarification with respect to 200 Beverly street so economic

4:27:16development is working on the next steps for that and we'll be bringing forward information later this

4:27:22year some other minor amendments include providing a summary of their most recent community engagement

4:27:28providing an update on the assessment of the potential cultural woodland and then providing

4:27:34a description of the city's source water protection program as it relates to the study area with respect

4:27:40to cultural heritage heritage planning staff and heritage wealth continue to recommend that all of

4:27:47the properties identified as having cultural heritage value be listed on the heritage register

4:27:53and these identified properties satisfy one or more criteria outlined in the Ontario Heritage Act

4:27:58regulation and they represent the period of industrial growth that occurred in the area

4:28:02prior to the Second World War we've previously highlighted for council that being listed on

4:28:08the heritage register does not impact impact the ability to renovate or alter or construct

4:28:13additions to existing buildings the other thing to note is that when they were considering the

4:28:19land use study heritage wealth passed an additional motion requesting that further study be undertaken

4:28:25to identify additional cultural heritage resources that represent the mid 20th century

4:28:32development so we've reviewed that motion and at this time we're not recommending that additional

4:28:38study be undertaken as I mentioned this area is characterized by development that happened

4:28:44from about 1900 to prior to the beginning of the Second World War and so the cultural heritage

4:28:50resources that have been identified are representative of that time period so we think a fulsome review

4:28:57of the cultural heritage resources in the area has been undertaken and that additional work

4:29:02hasn't been under isn't needed and there are better representative samples of mid 20th century

4:29:09development and that was identified through the city's cultural heritage action plan so with respect

4:29:16to recommendations you can see them here on this slide the recommendations from the land

4:29:23use study will generally feed into shaping wealth which is the growth plan conformity work and the

4:29:28official plan review project and an official plan amendment will be brought forward as part of those

4:29:33projects and then the recommendations will also feed into ongoing or upcoming city projects such

4:29:40as the parks and recreation master plan and the gulf trails master plan so I won't read over the

4:29:46conclusions and recommendations many of them are very similar to what the draft land use study had

4:29:52indicated but most importantly we are recommending that the lands be redesignated in accordance with

4:29:58the proposed land use map that we showed you earlier of note is that we are recommending the

4:30:04identified properties be included on the municipal register of cultural heritage properties

4:30:11important to the community when we heard through the draft land use study was that that the city

4:30:18own parcel at 106 Beaumont be developed as a park and then something else for council to consider

4:30:23is that a community improvement plan be developed for this area of the city so next steps for the

4:30:31project include working to develop urban design concept plans for portions of the study area and

4:30:38then also incorporating the recommendations into the draft official plan amendment as I had indicated

4:30:44so the recommendations before council tonight are that the land use study be approved that the

4:30:49identified properties be listed on the heritage register and then at that a community improvement

4:30:55plan for this area be considered following a future council decision on cip funding for the city

4:31:01and that concludes our high level overview of the draft or the recommended land use study thanks

4:31:11thank you to staff we do have a couple delegations councillor Allt can you hold back would that be okay

4:31:18thank you uh Brenda a hearing I'm sorry if I'm saying your your last name incorrectly Brenda I see

4:31:26that you want to join us by video so I'll just wait for you to turn on your camera if you can

4:31:41can you hear me yeah we can hear you Brenda yeah okay for some reason it doesn't want to start the video

4:31:47okay did you did you want to start um yeah I'll hit okay and see what happens hey we can see you now

4:31:55you can okay yeah great don't don't move don't do anything everything's good okay uh so thank you

4:32:01for joining us and uh you have up to five minutes if you need it Brenda and your time starts right

4:32:07now so go ahead okay um I spoke with um with stacey and david about um

4:32:17noise levels and lighting concerns and I believe that that is in the study too and and that those

4:32:24recommendations would safeguard residential communities in close proximity to industrial

4:32:29areas within the city of guelph um but unfortunately those guidelines don't apply to existing areas

4:32:36which is the area that we were just talking about tonight so my presentation is about the

4:32:42corridor bounded by elizabeth street victoria and york roads and um this area has is presently

4:32:51designated as other and then I'm assuming I'm not sure what it's going to be rezoned as but um

4:32:58businesses that are within an area that's designated other operate under a subsection of the noise

4:33:06bylaw and there are no limits on the decibel level at which they may operate and they can operate at

4:33:13any noise level for up to 16 hours a day six to seven days a week I did not know that when I moved

4:33:19here within the last few years some of the businesses in the elizabeth street corridor

4:33:25have experienced expansion changes in ownership and operations and increased business at the same

4:33:33time the area north and south of elizabeth street and east of victoria is residential with continuing

4:33:40intensification of residential development the ontario ministry of environment and world health

4:33:47and e you have recommended guidelines of somewhere around 50 to 70 decibel ratings for residential

4:33:55areas residents in close proximity to the elizabeth corridor are experiencing decibel levels

4:34:03that far exceed these recommendations from 7 a.m. till at least 7 p.m. sometimes later

4:34:09six days a week at least sometimes seven and then that's with rarely a break in the noise

4:34:15that's not just once in a while presently there's no recourse for residents who border such zones

4:34:22and find themselves dealing with excessive noise levels um I'm asking council to consider

4:34:33like a possibly amending the noise bylaw or possibly the designation other or whatever this

4:34:39area is now going to be zoned as so that we can reach a compromise between the needs of the industry

4:34:45that are there and the needs of the neighboring residents um I have some suggestions like reducing

4:34:53the number of days the hours per day that a business can exceed a certain decibel level

4:35:01or um perhaps there could be summer hours when residents are outside um

4:35:08maybe it should be rezoned so that all businesses have to operate within the guidelines specified

4:35:15in the study that was presented tonight um so in future people wouldn't be dealing with this but

4:35:24it will only apply to areas that aren't in existence yet um there are many possibilities

4:35:32available to ensure that the needs of both industry and residents are balanced yes the

4:35:38industries have been there for a long time however the lack of governance over the noise and the

4:35:43lighting may have been acceptable when the east end was farms but the city allowed residential

4:35:50intensification so 16 hours a day six days a week at any decibel rating is not compatible

4:35:57with healthy residential neighborhoods thank you for listening thanks for what you do and I think

4:36:03there's a place in heaven for every single one of you well thank you thank you very much

4:36:13I hope that got captured in the minutes uh that's great um brand new first of all thanks for

4:36:19hanging with us all all night as well it's it's actually been quite interesting to see some

4:36:23delegations on video so thanks for joining us in that in that manner let me see if there's any

4:36:28questions for you before I continue and there isn't there is one quick one for me though Brenda if

4:36:36you don't mind Brenda you don't have to disclose exactly your address I don't want you to consider

4:36:41that being pressured by me but are you like right up do you a butt against an existing industry

4:36:49no I'm I'm actually um

4:36:54what am I I'm north of the railway okay but if I could go out my back door and over the railway

4:37:02tracks I would land in the cement factory in the benmet scrapyard oh okay okay okay um yeah okay

4:37:16okay so okay I think I know where you are okay um and so that was there that that usage was there

4:37:25before I'm assuming I'm just trying to think about where you live um before that subdivision

4:37:32was made is that right correct this was farmland where I'm living yeah yeah okay well thank you

4:37:40sorry go ahead go ahead I interact with you those businesses have been there 40 years but I mean

4:37:45some of us have been here 20 years the noise is changing it's not it's not what it was when we moved

4:37:51in here 20 years ago okay well I think that's something to think about for me anyways as we

4:37:57move forward maybe under different under different sections or bylaws and things like that so thank

4:38:02you for bringing them forward I appreciate it and you have yourself a good night okay great thank you

4:38:08thank you uh and then we have terry hatsis I'm again sorry if I'm not saying that right but

4:38:15terry can you hear me okay okay yep great yes thank you for for joining us and just before

4:38:25we start so I want to make sure Brenda has yep Brenda's left okay terry thanks for joining us

4:38:31and I'll start your time you have up to five minutes you can go right now okay I I owned a

4:38:38property on Elizabeth at 270 that I bought a couple years ago and you know spent a lot of time fixing

4:38:44it up and doing whatever to get it rented as it's illegal duplex and now all of a sudden it's going

4:38:50on the heritage you know that it's going to have a heritage designation I'm I just you know there's

4:38:57nothing special about the house the same houses that are up and down the Elizabeth street and you

4:39:03know as you get down Elizabeth flows to downtown there's a lot of new houses being erected uh in

4:39:08place of some old ones so I I guess I'm just trying to understand why this is happening at this time

4:39:17and that's it for me no thank thank you very much and uh we we appreciate that and there might be a

4:39:24follow-up question then to staff in regards to that matter so thank thank you very much

4:39:29anything from my colleagues to this delegate at all seeing and hearing hearing none terry so thank

4:39:36you very much for calling in yep bye bye and there's some correspondence but that was it for us as

4:39:46delegations council so I'm going to go to councillor Gibson first and then I know councillor Allt as well

4:39:54wanted to is councillor Gibson here yes sorry uh didn't see you there go ahead councillor Gibson

4:40:01yeah thank you through you mr. mayoral maybe I'll just start by putting the motions on the floor

4:40:05but I would like to have them separate and um I would like to speak to that if that's all right

4:40:10to have the three okay but the motions are going on the floor all of them I can separate it that's

4:40:16fine who wants to second it then to get them all on the floor councillor hofflin that's fine thank you

4:40:22um okay uh let's see first if there's any questions

4:40:30any questions at all councillor Gibson then go ahead yeah thank you through mr. mayor question to staff

4:40:36you know in in other parts of the city where we have a heritage designation or heritage listed

4:40:43homes quite often times how it practically plays out is that you know you've got a small

4:40:49century old home on a very large lot and some of the development pressure that comes along is that

4:40:54home is purchased and the desire is to level it to the ground and then infill on that lot

4:41:00I'm trying to see the practicality of listing the homes in the ward in the same way we're not

4:41:06like apart from that four stretch of homes on Elizabeth we're not really seeing the disappearance

4:41:11of these century homes in this region and nor am I seeing or hearing a lot from the community

4:41:19where we hear members buy a home and then propose to demolish it and build something small because

4:41:24the lots are very small like there's just simply not a lot of infill opportunities I understand

4:41:29the application of a heritage designation in something like st. George's park where big homes

4:41:34big lots but you can infill I understand it over in the college area help me understand the rationale

4:41:41I guess maybe what I'm looking for is the problem statement here are we is there

4:41:46an imminent risk to losing this architecture the way we are currently going through the

4:41:53development process through you mr. mayor to counsel Gibson I wouldn't say there's an imminent

4:42:01risk of losing this architecture which is why we are only proposing that these properties be listed

4:42:07on the heritage register they're not being designated so I think I highlighted briefly

4:42:14and the report is has a more fulsome review but these the properties that have been identified

4:42:20satisfy the criteria under the Ontario Heritage Act the regulation and represent development that

4:42:27happened in the city between 1900 and sort of prior to the second world war so that's the area

4:42:35that's it or that's the time period that's important for this area and these properties represent that

4:42:42so again being listed on the heritage register doesn't impact your ability to modify your home

4:42:48or apply for building permits for other things there's no additional heritage permit required

4:42:53it just signals that there is cultural heritage value to these properties and if we want sort

4:42:58of more details Steven Robinson is available to answer questions yeah thank you I may I did I took

4:43:08the honor of looking up some of the properties that are being proposed for listing under the

4:43:12heritage and I'm going to take counsel down the road a little bit if anyone knows York Road in

4:43:16this area the box meet revolution building it's being proposed to be frozen in time the the

4:43:24rugged weave store on the north side of York Road that is being proposed as a heritage listing

4:43:31that's a cinder block stone building that is going to be frozen in time like we'll never like at

4:43:39this point that needs to be a whole heritage study on whether or not we can take that building down

4:43:44and and put something up in its place I was just I was baffled by some of the the the properties

4:43:51that were listed but maybe I'll move to another question heritage wealth past emotion requesting

4:43:56further study I know that there are advocacy groups in the city that want more study done on

4:44:01the York lands area or that then the south side of York Road and some of the the bridges and

4:44:09stonework that's been done along there has there been any conversation with the York lands hub group

4:44:16on on what they'd like to see if if not more and is there anything else that the city can do on that

4:44:23in that area knowing that the majority of its public land are provincially owned

4:44:31through you mr marita councillor Gibson we haven't had discussions regarding the south side of

4:44:36York Road through this project because that has was considered through the golf innovation

4:44:42innovation district and is being considered by heritage golf and staff as we look at the

4:44:48interior reformatory lands in their entirety so we've been very careful to make sure that

4:44:54the discussions regarding that property has happened outside of the study because this

4:44:58study has not touched that great thank you for that clarification I'll have some comments at the

4:45:06end mr marita finish my questions thank you okay thank you so all just before I go to the

4:45:17list and I do have all to work in Koran okay so I keep seeing hands go up and and downer

4:45:23um let me just see if I can just help us wade through this here is everyone okay with me calling

4:45:32it because it's been asked for them all to be split could we could I at least look to move number

4:45:37one which is which is the recommendation of the land use study included in attachment to be approved

4:45:43is there any questions on that particular one I just want to help us guide through it that's

4:45:48all councillor bell so I got my list of questions if it's okay I'll go through each one and then

4:45:53where where the questions land I'll go into that area and then we can move through each one

4:45:58councillor bell then on on the recommendation number one you have a question councillor work as well

4:46:10councillor bell I recognized you you go right ahead yep oh I'm sorry I thought you were doing

4:46:17a summary of who was speaking to what so on the land use recommendations and the the proposal to

4:46:29have a neighborhood park at that 106 bull mine I'm under the impression that we are about to create

4:46:44perhaps the largest park in the city right across the street and I didn't see any planning

4:46:53justification for a neighborhood park at that address other than the fact that the neighbors

4:47:01around the property would like a park there so if you could give a little bit of a planning

4:47:09justification why a neighborhood park would be merit there sure through you Mr. Mayor to

4:47:20councillor bell we did look at that area and it was sort of outlined in the the land you study in

4:47:26the draft so a neighborhood park typically is something that is walkable and serves a neighborhood

4:47:33without major barriers so we would generally view York Road being a fairly large road as a barrier

4:47:40in addition yes the Ontario reformatory lands are there we do not currently have

4:47:48any guarantee that they will remain publicly accessible in the long term

4:47:53so a neighborhood park is warranted for that existing

4:47:57pocket of residential development in the eastern portion of the study area for both the existing

4:48:03residents that are there now as well as the proposed residential intensification that the

4:48:09land you study has proposed so that medium density that we're adding there so that there is a

4:48:15neighborhood park with things such as a tot lot or whatever could be accommodated there and that

4:48:21would be designed in the future to service that immediate neighborhood so based on our official

4:48:27plan policies and existing parks there is warrant there is a park needed in that area

4:48:37and the price that we how many people would that park serve

4:48:44I apologize I don't know exactly the number of people that live in that area like the number

4:48:50of residents usually our OP policies talk about sort of within walking distance

4:48:56and not being separated by by barriers so you said that there was a possibility that the city

4:49:04would have access to the reformatory the the green space across the street from the Beaumont

4:49:17why didn't you say that to clarify I was talking about the Ontario reformatory lands which are

4:49:25currently owned by the province so when the province does sell them we currently don't know

4:49:31who the future owner will be and whether they will be accessible to the public under the future

4:49:38owner but they have been identified the the property across the street has been identified as

4:49:46as as green space and public space in the in the current state of planning has it not

4:49:56the Ontario reformatory lands there is natural heritage system and there's also a proposed

4:50:02cultural heritage landscape there but the designation does allow for some potential adaptive reuse

4:50:14thank you is there any more questions on on the first recommendation council or work

4:50:28thank you mr marathreux to miss lawclan could you just clarify for me whether mixed office commercial

4:50:34and mixed business if either or both allow for residential intensification sure through you

4:50:42mr marathreux to councillor rark mixed business does not allow for residential mixed office commercial

4:50:49would allow for some residential so typically that mixed office commercial designation is for

4:50:56properties that maybe look like a residential property but are used for business purposes so

4:51:02it can accommodate either so i'm just wondering why we would

4:51:11preclude so much residential that there's a lot of mixed business

4:51:19sort of east of victoria when when we're espousing 15 minute city when we're espousing

4:51:26people being able to walk and and bike to work so i'm wondering why we would preclude that

4:51:33um especially on well and actually um a long york on the north side as well

4:51:43through you mr marathreux to councillor rark the reason that we haven't proposed residential

4:51:48in those areas is that because of the background work that we did and land use compatibility

4:51:53so you heard from one of the delegates that there can be potential incompatibilities between

4:51:58industrial users and more sensitive land uses such as residential so if residential was to be

4:52:06introduced along york sort of immediately backing on to that industrial area much more detailed

4:52:13land use compatibility studies would be would need to be done to understand if the impacts could be

4:52:18mitigated okay and i just want you to confirm that um while we know the shaping wealth orc has

4:52:29removed this is an intensification corridor is it possible that we can still designate the york

4:52:36victoria node as a commercial node i mean there's already a lot of commercial there

4:52:43um and it's kind of a midpoint so you know when you drive by the fireworks place um

4:52:50that will make a fine you know four or six story building um so i'm trying to understand why

4:52:57we're not uh retaining that intensification corridor and the planning for it so through

4:53:05you mr marathreux to councillor rark the commercial policy review did um introduce that commercial

4:53:10mixed use designation and at the intersection of york and victoria on the easterly side um so that

4:53:18would allow for sort of that mixed use type development again detailed land use compatibility

4:53:23studies would have to be done to demonstrate that any impacts or incompatibilities could be

4:53:29mitigated um so i think the door is not closed with respect to shaping wealth like things can

4:53:36that's still in process and things can still happen so the york elizabeth land use study

4:53:42recommended that intensification corridors or strategic growth areas be determined by shaping

4:53:49wealth sort of in that larger city context when we're talking about where to direct growth and

4:53:54have minimum density targets and things like that um this land use study sort of went as far as

4:54:00possible based on the background information that we had to allow for residential and more

4:54:06sensitive land uses where it would be appropriate okay thanks and councillor downer thank you mr

4:54:22marathreux to staff the issues that brenna ahern made about the the noise and how the it's changed

4:54:29and whether that will play over into the new yet land uses the policies can you respond to that please

4:54:37stacy sure something we can do in this motion to to help with that yeah sure through you mr

4:54:44marathreux councillor downer um when we spoke with mr ahern we did identify that the the city's

4:54:52sort of noise guidelines and lighting guidelines that are in place citywide would be applicable

4:54:58to new developments so if new things were proposed today they would be subject to that review um

4:55:04however they do not apply retroactively the city's noise bylaw does apply so we did encourage mr

4:55:12ahern that if there were concerns to to launch noise complaints um at this time it's our understanding

4:55:18that bylaw doesn't have an intention to review the noise bylaw right now um however you know if

4:55:26complaints are launched or things like that that would be things that they would then talk about

4:55:30considering so right now what we have is the noise bylaw that could be applicable or potential

4:55:37amendments to that in the future thank you stacy is there anything more about recommendation

4:55:49number one okay that's the that the york road elizabeth street recommended lane you study including

4:55:58included with attachment two to this report be approved so how about i call the vote then on

4:56:04number one so all in favor of number one please raise your hand uh that looks unanimous to me

4:56:15you okay with that clerk okay may i just ask out loud is there anyone against okay thank you i'm so

4:56:25sorry about that councillor bell okay so that passes with councillor bell only the one against

4:56:33okay and then the next one number two is that the property's identified in attachment three

4:56:40of the report entitled york road elizabeth street recommended land use study data may 10th 2021 be

4:56:46listed on the municipal register of cultural heritage properties is there any questions on

4:56:53just that one and i think that's one where it's spurred on um a little bit of a list here i'm

4:56:58going to go back to my original list because i think it was around those those that issue i

4:57:03councillor Allt or or caron and downer when they originally put up their hand on that councillor

4:57:09alt are you okay with uh starting us off then yes and i'll try to make it quick mayor guthrie

4:57:17question i was going to ask uh really was related to the cooling list and i was wondering if staff

4:57:25could please put out for the public consumption a clarification of what it means uh in real terms to

4:57:34be on the heritage list because i know for example my late mother's house is on the heritage list

4:57:40my mother's my late mother's house has no heritage significance that i can tell right now and it's

4:57:47had multiple renovations and it's not being an issue in any way on the other hand it identifies it as

4:57:53being one that is of significance and i understand that that's what the cooling list is but very few

4:58:01people understand it that way so if staff could do that i don't think we need to go any further on

4:58:07on this at this moment okay through you mr. mayor to councillor Allt um to clarify uh the cooling

4:58:15inventory is sort of a list that was created many many years ago um the heritage register is

4:58:22something different so part of what we're doing through york elizabeth is actually recognizing

4:58:28many of the properties that are currently on the cooling inventory and bringing them in

4:58:33onto the heritage list for this area um so what it means to be on the heritage list is if you're

4:58:40listed is simply that it's sort of a signal that there is cultural heritage value for that property

4:58:48and the only additional restriction that would exist is if you were proposing to demolish your home

4:58:53um then city council would have to give approval for that um otherwise if you're proposing to renovate

4:59:01or anything getting building permits there's no additional permit process to go through

4:59:08so it really is just a signal that there is cultural heritage value to the property and it meets

4:59:14one or more criteria under the ontario heritage act regulation thank you very much that is exactly

4:59:21the clarification that i was looking for it is not open that was a pretty good thank you

4:59:29that councillor work did you have a question on this one too did you want to um well my only

4:59:37concern was whether if you had a home that was listed um on the register does that preclude the

4:59:48you know gathering of a couple of parcels for demolition for intensification purposes and i

4:59:53asked the question uh because that's what we have on gordon street with homes that you know

4:59:57arguably were of a similar vintage at some point um so i'm wondering if being on the registry

5:00:04precludes infill intensification in the area um through you mr marita councillor rork um it

5:00:14doesn't necessarily preclude infill or redevelopment um what it would mean is that if a development

5:00:20application was to come in for a property that's identified on the register the cultural heritage

5:00:25value of that property would have to be further evaluated as part of that development application

5:00:33and is there a cost sorry mr marita through you to miss lachlan is there a cost for the homeowner

5:00:38to have that done uh if there there could be potentially a cost associated with having some

5:00:46sort of report prepared however if it was through a development application i guess it would be

5:00:53a report that was prepared in in support of a development okay and my last question is how

5:00:59is this different than the work that's being planned in west ward where it's going to be

5:01:05identifying individual properties but not sort of a blanket coverage as a heritage area um actually

5:01:14i think i'll pass that one on to steven robinson for details about what's happening in ward west

5:01:21steven are you still on the call with us i i still am i am and through you mr mar i'm hoping you

5:01:29can hear me uh so i i'm happy to respond to councillor orork uh the what's what council

5:01:38has approved for for the ward west area would be a heritage conservation district study which

5:01:45essentially is is having a consultant assist the city in looking at an area to determine what a

5:01:55reasonable boundary would be for the ward west and the the area that would have cultural heritage

5:02:01value the difference with with that sort of study is that it's it's looking at a general overall

5:02:08a heritage character for the area not the cultural heritage value of individual properties

5:02:14necessarily what's being done here for the york elizabeth land use study or in conjunction with

5:02:22the land use study this was an opportunity to look at at a specific project area and as as

5:02:29stacey has mentioned already um have a look at those at the properties that have already been

5:02:35identified in the cooling inventory but also have a look at other properties that for one reason or

5:02:40another staff and heritage wealth have felt that have that display some sort of cultural heritage

5:02:47value so when you read through the material and and and actually read through regulation 906 where

5:02:55it's either architectural or design value or it's historical associative value but in particular

5:03:01there's contextual value that one property can have on its own or it can have value as part of a

5:03:10grouping even a row of houses that could be sister houses and a row of houses that were built at a

5:03:16time where a whole neighborhood was being built to support and the industrial development of

5:03:23of free war times in guelts that's really what what we were looking at and decided that that

5:03:31because cooling's inventory put on paper what what was on the ground what was built

5:03:38until up up till 1929 that that time period plus plus a few years after was felt to be a

5:03:47reasonable amount of time to capture those that residential boom that happened as a direct result

5:03:55of industrial development of this part of the ward so to get back to your question this this is not

5:04:03a heritage conservation district study this is simply I think in the most simple terms

5:04:10what's being suggested here is is it maybe a formalization of what properties within the

5:04:16York Elizabeth project area display cultural heritage value and that's that's really the

5:04:22extent of it because as Stacy has mentioned a couple times the being listed on the register

5:04:28essentially is a flag it's a formal notification and and if council agrees with it then council

5:04:37can say that they they agree that these these properties are listed because simply they have

5:04:43cultural heritage value based on the regulation of the heritage act it's recognition more than

5:04:49anything and as Stacy has also said if development is proposed then it makes it easier for staff and

5:04:56for council to consider those properties with cultural heritage value and to consider the best

5:05:03and most practical way for them to be conserved okay so are you telling me then the the implication

5:05:12is that the priority would be to conserve them or just that we have that that discussion when

5:05:19that property comes to council if there's a request for demolition that that's right you're

5:05:24you're correct the the provincial policy statement states that significant cultural heritage resources

5:05:32shall be conserved now we what we're proposing with the listing of these properties is as

5:05:40as has been said this isn't to to protect them under a heritage designation bylaw this is simply to

5:05:48list them on the heritage register so that their cultural heritage value is recognized so that at

5:05:53the point when development may be contemplated or even applied for then the city will be ahead in

5:06:02in that it it already has a fairly good idea of what properties within that part of the neighborhood

5:06:08have cultural heritage value or contribute to the neighborhood's history or cultural heritage value

5:06:15whether it's the building that we all know as box meet revolution or the same building in the 1920s

5:06:21as the dominion grocery store thanks for the clarification okay both buildings probably sold

5:06:32meat right all right we'll levity at 1137 all right uh councillor Caron and downer i had originally

5:06:42so let me see if they still would like to speak to this one councillor Caron you want to go ahead

5:06:47yeah thanks to you and mr robinson has done an excellent job of outlining the same points that

5:06:52i was going to bring forward so i won't uh i won't review that i just felt it was really important

5:06:57to correct the rhetoric that i heard about something being frozen in time because uh that is

5:07:03absolutely not what a listing on the register does um the register and designation very different

5:07:10things uh the cooling inventory a very different thing and i'd like to remind my colleagues on

5:07:16council that when the register was first um created um uh when it as a requirement under the

5:07:24heritage act um this council and the previous council have voted to remove more heritage

5:07:31properties for the purpose of death militia for infill then we have designated so we we have the

5:07:39ability to evaluate those properties when it's appropriate and history has shown that we actually

5:07:45remove more properties than we designate so i don't think property owners have anything to fear

5:07:50from uh recommendation number two on this report thank you councillor downer did you have something

5:08:02on this one i don't have any i don't have any questions no i might have comments later okay

5:08:08questions from councillor gibson or councillor bell or only comments before i call the vote

5:08:14only comments mr mayor councillor bell comments as well okay then why don't i start with comments on

5:08:20this this particular one around the heritage one that we're voting on um councillor downer go ahead

5:08:32i just want to stress the importance of putting these properties into the register much like a

5:08:40lot of the area of the older part of the city and and how you know that this is not an owner's thing

5:08:48and and unless you want to demo the demolish the property even then it's not that owner as it goes

5:08:54it just means it goes to the heritage gulf and then the council will have to approve it

5:08:58based on their recommendations even in my neighborhood which is in the heritage district on

5:09:04the edge of it a house was recently demolished council approved to demolish it but wasn't it

5:09:09and there was no heritage assessment paid for by that applicant the heritage gulf looked at it and

5:09:16decided it wasn't of significant value and and that um and it had been significantly modified on

5:09:23the outside and even though it was in that area and and approved uh and recommended the demolition

5:09:29so it's not it's not uh it's i just think it's important that we recognize that heritage isn't

5:09:37about sentry homes um and in the um in our neighborhood these are not large lots that can be

5:09:46subdivided it's actually the the ones that are the bungalows and the outer part of the neighborhoods

5:09:52it's so erroneous to just find this neighborhood it's having large lots that could be subdivided

5:09:57and that's why we had to do it here and it's not just about the heritage homes there's lots of

5:10:01aspects around heritage as steve has talked about from the 1900s to the pre-second war there's aspects

5:10:09of those buildings that might be of importance or or recording the history but um it hasn't

5:10:17so much of the of the older part of the city is in the registry already i think it would be

5:10:24the best of us not to have these in there as a flag and it's just a flag on that if anything comes

5:10:30in for those they can still modify or renovate do all those things but it's a flag and also they

5:10:36can get help from the city um you know steve's great at giving some advice about some of the things

5:10:42you can do like the people in the neighborhoods around the downtown are always said how how

5:10:49collaborative the city is in in helping them to preserve aspects of their building that are

5:10:54important and educating them on on those things as well so i hope you really support this because

5:11:00i think it's i think it's important okay thank you councillor bell then gibson then alt uh i'd like

5:11:13to make a couple comments on that one is um a heritage value assessment if you're going to do a

5:11:25lot line adjustment or or something like that i mean it's it's a burden and um if you want to

5:11:34demolish a property and um you have to do a heritage value assessment and um and the heritage value

5:11:42assessment says yes you can demolish it well that's fine except you had to pay for that heritage

5:11:49value assessment so um i i think that um this is this is a case of trying to trying to designate

5:12:01way too much and um we need to be more careful um about putting burdens on um

5:12:12on properties that have what um a lot of people consider as no heritage value

5:12:22uh that's not to say that there are properties that do but i think the over over identify heritage

5:12:33uh works against um the general sort of purpose of of preserving things and value

5:12:45everything cannot have heritage value and i think we need to be more selective than

5:12:51i think there's too many properties identified okay thank you uh councillor gibson

5:13:02yeah thank you through you mr mayor so um i won't lie i expected the criticism uh from some

5:13:07members of councillors not rhetoric to debate this issue by any stretch of the imaginations if it's

5:13:12if everything is chimed up to rhetoric then why why are we why do we debate anything so um

5:13:17but in my by professional life when i talk about environmental policy environmental planning

5:13:24the government's job is to regulate and bring in policy for protections on species at risk on

5:13:29wildlife or whatever when there's an imminent risk to that species or an imminent risk to

5:13:35that segment of society that you want to preserve we further from staff and this is no reflection

5:13:40of staff's work this is a this is a tremendous report but in this case we are taking the

5:13:47ultimately the demolition rights for 81 property owners out of the out of the hands of the property

5:13:53owners and putting it into the hands of a committee right so heritage gulf will take an assessment

5:14:00of that property if a demolition application ever comes forward that's 81 81 properties in this

5:14:08in this area and i stand by my word i again might have been the divinium supermarket in the 1920s

5:14:13but today it's begging to be redeveloped i mean it's sitting there it's falling it's falling

5:14:18down in front of our eyes and the rug and weave store across the street it's a cinder block it's

5:14:22a cinder block stone store that's it's not even stone store it's a cinder block poured concrete

5:14:27box of a building and it's going to have to be evaluated for heritage value um i fear like this

5:14:35is a solution in search of a problem i fear that this is a hammer in search of a nail i do not

5:14:43believe these homeowners rights needs to be restricted in terms of what they want to do

5:14:48because these homes are not disappearing in the ward that's how i feel that's what the majority

5:14:54of the 81 property owners feels the same way as well and i just feel like it's not a necessary

5:15:03step so i'm not prepared to take it okay thank you councillor ult then karan thank you very much

5:15:13mayor gethry um i i had some concerns about this motion this afternoon so i contacted

5:15:20mr brian scarred from the heritage uh for heritage wealth uh to ask him whether he had any concerns

5:15:26i really honestly i needed some expertise and i and i think that that's really the science of politics

5:15:33talk to the people who are the experts including the heritage committees that we appoint because

5:15:38we believe that that's their responsibility uh in the case of as i say my late mother's house

5:15:43the heritage designation has had no burden whatsoever and it's the second oldest house on

5:15:49exhibition park and i will also be very candid it has no heritage value in my mind however i am not

5:15:58a heritage expert nor am i a fish expert nor am i a wildlife expert i rely upon the experts

5:16:06and it's just like what we are experiencing with coven right now when we are seeing many many people

5:16:13saying we don't trust the doctors and we don't trust the scientists if we appoint a committee

5:16:19we must recognize that the responsibility for the committee's decisions really truly rest with

5:16:26council because we appointed them and we have asked them to do a job so consequently i'm quite

5:16:32prepared to do this because as i as i said the heritage committee itself is not opposed to this

5:16:37in fact it believes that it's actually going to enhance the character of an old area of wealth

5:16:48thank you and councillor Caron uh yes thank you mr mayor normally i would just say you know let

5:16:55let the votes fall where they may on this um but i i do feel compelled to actually address um

5:17:03misinformation regarding what a register listing is versus a demolition application

5:17:11all that this listing does is give the gives council 60 days to review it normally a demolition

5:17:21a demolition application has to come to council anyway either way whether it's listed or not a

5:17:26demolition application is a council decision listed or not a listing gives us 60 days to review

5:17:34and allow heritage gulf to go out and review the property and make a determination to give us advice

5:17:41on whether it's worth going to the next step as i said our past experience has actually been

5:17:47that heritage gulf comes back they review it there's no properties a heritage impact assessment

5:17:52that the property owner needs to do at this stage the property owner doesn't have to pay anything to

5:17:59get heritage gulf's opinion on a matter so i just feel like it's really important to make sure that

5:18:05that is fully understood again the votes will fall where they may but i don't like misinformation to

5:18:12stand on the floor when people are making your decisions okay thank you just before i go to

5:18:20councillor bell one more time no problem i just want just a quick question and maybe i misunderstood

5:18:27what you said councillor crime but i just i have a question for staff i believe a couple of years ago

5:18:33maybe i remember corrects me there was delegated authority given to staff in regards to demolition

5:18:41of buildings that are not heritage so i believe councillor crime i may have misheard you you said

5:18:46it doesn't matter if it's heritage or not we still get the it comes always comes to council

5:18:51but i don't think that's accurate i think it only comes to council if it's heritage can i get staff

5:18:56to tell me if i'm right or wrong on that that's who you miss mr mayor but that three you are

5:19:03correct on that okay thank you um councillor bell you had a follow-up comment yeah just to

5:19:12respond to councillor uh Karen's comments i so i live in a designated excuse me not designated

5:19:25listed property and i had two lots and i wanted to sever one lot from the other lot

5:19:36but because i lived in a desert excuse me i'm listed property that supposedly has no burden

5:19:44whatsoever i was compelled to hire a heritage expert at a cost of i believe it was about 12

5:19:55thousand dollars so that he he could say and make a recommendation that i could sever

5:20:07after property so to say that that uh there isn't a burden associated with a listed property

5:20:15if if you want a property line adjustment or a severance or amalgamate a couple lots or

5:20:24you may you may even want to want to demolish you are likely going to have to pay for a heritage

5:20:35assessment and um and that's fine like i i didn't really resent that much having to pay for a heritage

5:20:45assessment because i have a significantly important heritage property but i just don't see how that

5:20:56burden should be transferred onto all those those 81 properties in the ward it's just way too many

5:21:05properties and a way too much burden and uh yeah so thought i'd just try and clear up the misinformation

5:21:18all right well i think there's probably a lot of clarity and information flying around here

5:21:23we want to 10 to 12 at night and speaking of 10 to 12 at night um we have to suspend the procedural

5:21:29bylaw if we even make it to the next nine minutes i don't want to go there personally i think we've

5:21:34all kind of stated our position i did allow as i usually say we're circling i did allow councillor

5:21:42bell to start the circle i see two more hands up that i want to make sure that i honor councillor

5:21:47caron and councillor downer and then i'm going to call the vote everybody i'm going to lay it down

5:21:53here i'm going to do it so uh councillor crene you go for it councillor downer you're next i'd like to

5:21:58call the vote after that yeah thank you mr mayor and i recognize that i just i just want to give our

5:22:03heritage planner an opportunity to respond to that because um councillor bell has cited an example

5:22:09that that isn't relevant that uh being a listed property uh for a severance that a heritage impact

5:22:15assessment would have been a committee of adjustment process um and that the being listed uh was not

5:22:22the reason that a heritage assessment if we're going to use an example i think it needs to

5:22:26i think we need to be accurate about what uh what a listing on the register um does and does not impede

5:22:33a property owner to do um and applying for a severance does not require a heritage assessment

5:22:41simply on the basis of being on the register so i i think if we could get some clarity from our staff

5:22:46on that so it's almost a yes or no question so if you could uh try to try to confirm uh councillor

5:22:57caron's assessment there or or not i don't know what the answer is through through you mr mayor

5:23:03yeah i i would i'd just like to say that a development application according to our official plan

5:23:10policies it it may be that a cultural heritage resource impact assessment could be required

5:23:17as part of a complete application but my experience and fairly long experience now at guelph uh usually

5:23:24assessments there's so much assessment that's done internally with heritage planning staff and with

5:23:30assistance from heritage guelph it's often uh avoided but not always okay well there's clarity

5:23:40and councillor Downer yeah that was a clarity that i wanted to get because as i my understanding is

5:23:47that yeah like if you're demolishing a house it's usually done internally that assessment

5:23:52with the help of heritage staff there's very little that has to be paid for if you're going to be

5:23:57severing and that's that's an actual development application that's a completely different process

5:24:01where i could see that you might to do some further work on that in detail okay we've definitely

5:24:10we've definitely said our piece about about the heritage stuff here as as councillor Caron said that

5:24:16that the votes will fall where they may i feel like i'm becoming heritage just talking about it any

5:24:21longer all right so let's let's call let's call the vote on on number two that the properties

5:24:28identified in attachment three of the report be listed on the municipal register of cultural

5:24:33heritage properties all in favor please raise your hand okay i'm going to call out names on this one

5:24:39downer alt gordon hofflin uh salisbury and karan okay all those against please raise your hand let me

5:24:53yell out your name gut three billings sorry or work what are you doing i don't know if you're

5:25:03for against i'm sorry i had my hand up for mr maro you're for it okay sorry and then galler

5:25:12and then mckinnon and then gibson and then um bell so i believe if i did their math right is that

5:25:22seven six four yeah i wasn't sure on councillor works either i'm going to call it again for you no

5:25:40problem okay only the hands up that are for putting all these 81 whatever listings on the

5:25:47on the heritage register put your hand up for me so or orc salisbury alt downer gordon hofflin

5:26:00and karan did i yell out all the names properly okay all those against please put up your hand

5:26:10when i yell out your name please lower your hand so gut three billings galler mckinnon gibson

5:26:22uh bell i believe that seven six four okay it's been confirmed by the clerk okay let's move on to

5:26:31number three everybody we got a few minutes the council direct staff to consider the community

5:26:37improvement plan for this area following a council decision on community improvement plan

5:26:43funding for the city is there any questions on this particular one no okay yes councillor or work

5:26:52please just we only got four minutes go ahead yep thanks mr maro through you to staff just

5:26:57wondering why the brownfield and downtown revitalization and existing cip grants would be insufficient

5:27:09through you mr maro to council or work um we haven't indicated that they would be insufficient

5:27:14downtown wouldn't be applicable to this area i believe it's more for downtown so the brownfield

5:27:20one would be if it was funded it's just an additional tool that council could consider if they wanted

5:27:27to encourage additional development in this area okay thanks did i see another hand go up for a question

5:27:37i don't think so okay it's already been moved and seconded and to me the motion is really clear

5:27:45i'll just yell out loud one more time because it seems pretty straightforward to me that council

5:27:49direct staff to consider a community improvement plan for this area following a council decision on

5:27:55community improvement plan funding for the entire city so it's pretty pretty pretty easy for me

5:28:01uh any any other commentary other than what i just said okay all in favor of number three

5:28:09please raise your hand okay i see some hands not going up here oh okay looks unanimous to me now

5:28:18you okay with that clerk confirmed by the clerk okay on the wire i love it keep everyone on their

5:28:27toes please tell me that was it though counter sowsbury my friend sows uh bylaws for me please do

5:28:36you mind that um bylaws number 2021 20603 to 2021 20605 are hereby passed who's going to put up the

5:28:56peace sign for me to second that one counter goller let's click on that one anything on the bylaws

5:29:01anybody all in favor of the bylaws let me see your hands please looks unanimous to me you good

5:29:13there are no mares announcements it's 1159 and i'm asking for adjournment well done everybody

5:29:18counts are billings seconded by council are alt all in favor of adjournment

5:29:251159 58 seconds have a good night everybody thank you so much for sticking around take care bye bye