Council Orientation and Education Workshop

1:13Good evening everyone. I'll call the meeting to order. It's November 22nd here at 6 o'clock.

13:35We're here for our council orientation and education workshop meeting. And so thank you

13:41for everyone arriving and joining in to watch this workshop as we move on through the budget.

13:51Before we really dive in though, let's stand if you're able please as we recognize our

13:56national anthem. Great thank you everyone and as we continue just a moment of silent

15:27reflection. Thank you and for our Indigenous territorial acknowledgement. As we gather,

15:44let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work in Guelph, a city built over

15:50rich Indigenous histories. We're guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility

15:55to care for this land, the people who live here today and the generations to come. If our actions

16:00today can move us towards reconciliation, we should take pause and make those decisions with

16:04intention and gratitude. This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands and a place of

16:10refuge for many peoples over time, but more specifically the Aniwana Rock and the Honolunishoni.

16:16This land is held with the treaty lands and territory with the Mississaugas of the Credit

16:20First Nation. Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman Track and is part of the long

16:27established traditional hunting ground for the six nations of the Grand River. Many First Nations,

16:33Inuit and Métis peoples who have come from across Turtle Island call Guelph home today.

16:41Great thank you for that moment there and is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest or any

16:45general nature thereof for the workshop in front of us here? Hearing and seeing, I don't consider

16:52that matter closed. Here we go, the 2024 to 2027 multi-year budget workshop. We are a week away

17:05from finishing, wrapping up the budget and this meeting was added and I know of course Council

17:15and everyone, mostly everyone in the room knows this but for those that are joining in, this meeting

17:19was an additional meeting that was added because Council really felt like we wanted to have a

17:26more focused opportunity to hear of options presented that we could consider, ask questions of

17:34clarity on and just have a good kind of open discussion about options to reduce the budget

17:42and so all of that material was released and that's why we're here tonight now to dive a little bit

17:48deeper into that. After I speak here, I'm going to head it on over to our CAO for some opening

17:55remarks but I just wanted, well you know what I'm not going to go on too much longer here, I guess

18:02I just want to say thank you, I'll just say that right now, thank you to staff right off the top,

18:08tough, very tough budget this year, I know we've all said that, just want to recognize staff again

18:15for the work that they are doing, have done and are about to probably do more of in the next seven

18:22days so thank you very much and a thank you to the citizens of Guelph, the businesses of Guelph

18:29that have obviously been reaching out since the budget was released on November the 3rd, we hear

18:35you, we thank you for suggestions and respectful feedback as we continue to move towards the final

18:42date of the 29th so on behalf of council just thank you again to staff and to the citizens.

18:49With that I will basically go to you Scott Stewart our CAO and then maybe after that

18:59I'll just maybe go get into just letting everyone know sort of the flow of expectations for tonight

19:05okay so over to you Scott. Great thanks very much Mr. Mayor and good evening Council and

19:10the community that's watching and of course the folks in the audience with us tonight as well,

19:14a little staffer with us this evening and this is just a little reminder as the Mayor started to do

19:20as well so the 15th got us tonight with your motion and so I just wanted to sort of maybe put

19:27that at play a little bit that motion was an important piece to the setup of this evening of

19:31course and so that we can get into sort of the workshop material and clerks have it so if we

19:37need it we can put that on the screen as well as just a bit of a reminder on well what are we doing

19:44here I think we do remember that the 15th wasn't that long ago but I like the Mayor I do want to

19:51thank the staff that have for helping thank you for helping guide the conversation that we're

19:56going to have this evening as well but also because it's an important discussion to have here in this

20:00workshop format and I like the format because there's a bit of informality to the format but a big

20:06thank you to the staff who pulled this off this is a lot of work this evening so that we can have

20:11that right and proper professional discussion together and I think that's an important place

20:16and where we are we have our leadership team with us of course and they're in the audience and if

20:22there's some specific details you may see some folks come down to the podium depending on sort of

20:27where me meander tonight but of course our finance staff for front and center as well as the executive

20:31team to my left but also in the audience you've got a couple of my favorite characters our police

20:38chief and deputy and of course our chief librarian and the the second in the command there Dan so

20:43I'm glad to see that they have joined us because there might be some discussions on GPL or GPS

20:48and of course we just couldn't do that without them and what is a what is a public budget meeting

20:54without the the chief being in attendance so guard thanks very much you've been you've been stellar all

20:59the way along with our finance staff and all these budget meetings but the agenda is set to guide us

21:06through the big buckets that we've got so as we get into that you'll come to realize well what is

21:10this big bucket thing but that discussion is important to us we will likely as the mayor will

21:15T help likely sort of pull into the boards first and then at that case once we move through that

21:21of course the folks I just referenced who could leave they can stay but you know that's their

21:25choice but that will help us give us direction and time the 29th is only a week away but it's

21:32not that far away again if there's details here so tonight is good that will maybe here of course

21:37the mayor wants to make sure he pulls out all your intentions and that's an important piece of the

21:41discussion but also any of the actions that we might have to take that's important place that we

21:47have enough time so that you have enough time on the 29th when it comes to that evening for making

21:52decisions or amendments and moving us through that process so keep that in mind as well it doesn't

21:57mean we can't do things it just means if there's a thousand things to do that's a little bit more

22:03complicated than a hundred things to do so doesn't mean we can't doesn't mean we won't and just I put

22:08that out there as a level of enthusiasm to get to all kinds of things we might prioritize ourselves

22:13this evening a little bit and a couple of final thoughts we're certainly going to follow along

22:18with your discussion tonight we want to be part of your discussion tonight and we want to support

22:23you through the discussions that we'll have there's nothing personal in these conversations

22:28they're just conversations about the budget and the toughness that's going to have to come forward

22:32with making decisions but I'll also remind us there is a closed portion on the agenda

22:38sorry mr. mirror from stealing some of your thunder hunt on the setup that's the place to go into

22:43camera if we had to can't be in there all the time but if we had to just in terms of

22:48identifying identifiable individuals or any contractual arrangements that we might have

22:53there's that room is the room that we'll have to deal with some of that so we may pause at times and

22:57say we just can't answer that here in open session doesn't mean that we don't want to answer it just

23:02means there is a significant difference between answer here in a public realm and answer and

23:08in camera in regards to our starting spot this evening between the county changes in the assessment

23:14growth so we'll drop from 10.3 percent to 9.9 percent which again is not nothing I'd certainly

23:22better direction than going up so take that for what that's worth as well that's some good news

23:27in there you know it isn't a full percentage drop so you know let me let me say that out loud before

23:33someone has to say that for me but it's certainly going down not up and I think that's a great way

23:38to start and then just in terms the the handoff to you to you mr. mayor I will say we are going to be

23:44in familiar hands and competent hands of great staff member glenn lumbert he does all of these

23:51things so well and and he just quietly blushing there as I just talk about the wonderful work

23:56that he has done he's done it with us before he handles us collect collectively well he'll help

24:02guide us through it so we'll be in his hands in terms of engagement and that's that's his strength

24:08you will see that because you've seen it before and you know it when we did some of the other

24:11workshops and so with that I let's hopefully we'll get through this evening with a very helpful

24:17workshop that sets the pace and and the ability for us to move from tonight into the 29th so with

24:24that mr. mayor I'll hand things back to you and we will be putting in your hands and Glenn's hands

24:30all right thank you Scott for that those opening remarks yeah you did kind of explain some of

24:35the flow already which is great so it means that you people don't have to listen to me which is

24:38always good but yeah we're going to start with local boards okay council so let's let's let's

24:44concentrate on any of the local board questions interactions if we need to when we get sort of

24:50to the end of that section I'm going to straight up ask council you know is there anything more

24:57because if there isn't then we can cut that off and we can move move more into

25:02what's under our a bit more under our control which is the city portion

25:06if we have to okay if I could maybe just prompt a couple of things to think about as Glenn takes over

25:14is you know this is probably a good time for some questions of I would say two things clarity

25:23and or impact I have I need to ask this question to get clarity on fill in the blank what would the

25:31impact be if I fill in the blank so clarity and impact can help focus us as we try to do that

25:39please keep in mind as a reminder the budget board is still live and so that that is a way that we

25:46can also have a discussion publicly with those questions and answers as well and then the last

25:53thing I wanted to just mention is I think it would be great if Glenn or I did not have to interrupt

26:00any of us if we start to wade into what we should be talking about in camera in other words we should

26:08all know better that's what I'm saying so don't don't let us even go there where we have to interrupt

26:12but if you have questions for in camera then let me know and we'll figure out with the clerks on

26:17how to how to do that that's it Glenn over to you thanks mayor so we're going to start the night

26:31talking about local boards and shared services and like the mayor said we're really after two things

26:39clarity and an understanding of risk and impact so that's what we're the whole sort of evening is

26:44designed around that and so we wanted to handle what is actually the second bucket that you received

26:51in the council information the council package last week we want to deal with that first given that

26:55we have some folks in the room that probably don't need to stick around for the whole evening so we'll

26:59start there and for this first one I'll give a bit more preamble when we get to the other buckets

27:04but we wanted to dive in right you know to get started with local boards to really throw to you

27:10council to sort of see where your questions were so maybe as a quick scan who has questions

27:18related to budget reductions on local boards and shared services this just by show of hands

27:26the councillor all councillor caton cancer gibson councillor or orc okay councillor richardson okay

27:33so we got a bunch so uh councillor all I saw your hand first so maybe what we'll do is

27:41whoever you've got questions for first um we'll deal with all the questions for that board at once

27:47and then we'll move on to the next so over to you councillor all thank you very much apologies

27:53that are not there I don't know whether I have COVID I don't want to give it to any of you for

27:58Christmas the question that I have two questions one of clarification to mr craft on the library

28:06one of impact on budget to staff there has been some discussion within the public and within

28:14my colleagues of the five staff to facilitate the opening of the library so to to mr craft I was

28:22wondering if you could please outline why that might be considered to be of importance at this

28:30point thanks for your question councillor all just making our way down here greetings everyone

28:45thank you for the question um councillor out and through you mayor why are the five staff members

28:51that we have requested for 2024 important to the project as I said or I tried to say the other evening

28:59or a week or so ago we need to start filling these positions as soon as possible so that they take

29:05the burden off of the staff who are already doing a lot of that work off the side of their desk

29:11so if you don't approve those five staff members for example in 2024 you simply are deferring them

29:18to a following year where you're going to feel the impact even greater and that puts us one step

29:23behind in terms of preparing for that new major project in 2026 the new central library thank you

29:31just another quick question um with regards to hiring of staff or those positions are we in a

29:39position where there is a plethora of staff when we could hire or are we tremendously competitive on

29:48that um through you um uh through you mayor to the council or a plethora um I meant a shortage

29:59sorry I blame my cold okay a shortage yes I mean we are in in in somewhat of a shortage too because

30:06as again I tried to explain last week or whenever it was because time goes quickly um we have not

30:13hired enough staff over the past 10 years um despite COVID and everything that happened

30:19our services are back at pre-COVID levels so with there is a shortage of staff in terms of

30:25what providing programs and services all right so we absolutely do need these staff at one point

30:31or another and that's why we put them forward in 2024 because as I say we need to get ready we need

30:36to um serve the community and we need to get ready for this this large project so okay thank you

30:43and the next question is for uh for the city staff which is the impact if there's a city

30:50staff member available if we do not fund these positions what will the the immediate impact

30:57be upon this budget does it have any impact at all um so uh as councils aware we have phased in

31:12the impact of Baker district over the last I think we've started three years ago or two years ago now

31:20so we have um already reduced that phasen amount because of the library bringing these positions

31:29on earlier than we had originally planned for in the phasen and so if council were to reduce the

31:37library budget then the decision point would be do you want to keep that as just like a base

31:42reduction then that that amount would have to get added back in likely 26 or 27 um in the budget

31:50because the phasen would be too short like we would be short money uh over the the whole program so

31:57the alternative is uh that um you take the the money out of uh library and it would bump the

32:06phasen back up but that would just be a corporate that would be a decision of council um as part of

32:11this this item okay thank you councillor all thanks just maybe as a point of order I'm going to try

32:19to keep us moving along um so we're going to try to keep to max one or two follow-up questions

32:25and then move along just just we've got a lot to get through so um other counselors who have questions

32:30for library yes okay thank you okay yes councillor good thank you workshop not through you mr

32:43mayor okay thanks thank you mr craft for coming today um I have a question in years past when

32:49we're looking at expansions and this is simply just trying to it's it is a little bit of a deferral

32:54of cost but you still get where you need to be in years past we have um funded half of these

33:00expansions for half the year as in you don't let the job you don't let the job uh advertisement hit

33:06the job board until May and you get the person on boarded in July August therefore you've got your

33:11funding you've got your positions in place but we've saved half the cost in the first year of

33:15implementation would that be at all amenable to helping with the cost of this tax increase this year

33:22that would not be my preference but that could be your decision yes you are correct all right I mean

33:27but keep in mind too I mean like even this funding even if it you know happens on January 1st

33:32those people aren't going to be in place it's going to take time to hire five so I mean like

33:36they're not going to come on board January 1st um it'll take several months for us to um we only

33:41have one HR person so it'll take us you know several months to hire um so I'm giving you two options

33:47there okay I appreciate that that's fine and just as an FYI I'm going to ask that to the police and

33:51I'm going to ask that to staff as well so it's the same question for everybody you do that yes thank you

33:56uh Councillor Clausson I saw your hand up my question my hand was a uh for a board question

34:08not specifically for a library question okay no problem and Councillor Caiten library related or

34:13no okay anyone else with questions for the library yeah thank thank you through you Gwynne um I just

34:25it's a bad mayor joke um you just mentioned that one of them was an HR person that you're looking

34:32to hire no sorry we I say we have one HR person that needs to do all the work in terms of hiring

34:37those five so thank you yes I just wanted to make sure there was a question of clarity

34:43complete clarity yes thank you very much okay I'm seeing no other hands for the library thank you

34:50Mr. Krapp um we'll go to questions for what police services so maybe we can get chief Colby down

35:00here in the meantime uh Councillor Clausson was your hand up there I think no yes okay um

35:08Councillor Caiten okay awesome okay uh Councillor Clausson we'll we'll go to you to lead off

35:20clarifying question thank you um and this question might be for staff um um so thanks

35:28thanks I'm not sure um so from my understanding we've asked all of the outside boards if they

35:33could potentially come in at a lower percentage and um one of I think we had perhaps the county

35:41that came in a little bit lower but not the police and just looking at some of the numbers the police

35:46had consistent increases for a number of years when we've asked other outside boards to either pause

35:52or reduce their their their budgets especially in harder harder times um and I've you know I asked a

35:58few questions because I've received a lot of input from the community with regard to you know

36:04reducing the police budget and we know why are we increasing the police budget when we need more

36:09social services and housing um and my my from my perspective I've had um you know I think our

36:17our position as councillors and on how we can influence the police budget is limited

36:23based on some things that I've learned so my question is I think to staff and maybe to the

36:28police as well which is how what is the best way for the community to provide their feedback on the

36:34police budget um and and I think I think that's it what's I just think that communications piece

36:40is really important because I receive a lot a lot of emails and um you know and I feel like my ability

36:47to influence that budget is is extremely limited so just how can the community connect with the

36:52police board and when is the appropriate time to do that because you know we're doing our overall

36:56budget right now um but the police board has already done their budget so just just some clarity on

37:02that would be great sure now it just wants that for me first or sure um so I'll start with that

37:12you know just to kind of for the context um councillor have you had an opportunity to watch

37:19our presentation from October and all the like the comparative analysis and all that stuff have you

37:25had an opportunity to review those docs I haven't I haven't looked at every single thing in detail

37:32but I've had a high level review okay so um I guess the first opportunity um if someone wants to

37:38engage the board they can always through our website just email the board directly and I think it's

37:43board.govpolice.ca so that's accessible from the website and then from the consultation piece

37:51I believe the board the board the budget was publicly introduced October 5th and then passed at

37:58the next meeting so there's that that month in between meetings um that the community would have

38:03had an opportunity to know what the budget ask was and I'll stop there and see if that helps at all

38:13yeah that helps um I think do you hear a lot like you know at this time I'm receiving you know just

38:19today we got probably 15 emails about the police budget do you get that kind of volume when you're

38:25you know finalizing your budget you know a month ago um I personally don't I can't speak for all

38:32the feedback that might go to the board but but I don't uh I don't get that personally no okay thanks

38:39thanks for that clarification and then maybe this is just a question for staff and it's perhaps a

38:44process type thing is is there some exploration that we can do about potentially the timing of

38:51outside boards and when their budgets come to us because you know I'm receiving all of this input

38:56right now from the community because they think you know that we can influence the budget at this

39:00point but you know the police has already passed their budget so that the points where they where

39:05the public could have provided their input was a month ago um so is there perhaps maybe that's

39:10something we can take away for the next time is just far as like when when budgets get um when

39:17the public can weigh in uh specifically on the police board so let me jump in here and of course

39:25I'm not going to speak for Chief Colby here but but I think that's an interesting conversation to

39:30have the communication part of this particular board but potentially that's any of the boards

39:36uh and I so I think there's a couple of places and and the chief did sort of take you to um

39:42you know maybe perhaps the community's best opportunity to influence the police budget

39:47is by delegating and providing correspondence directly to the Guelph Police Services Board

39:52as part of their budget process but you may not know about it I mean I I think you're getting

39:57lots of questions because you went out to the community to say hey we're having these times

40:00about the budget. So perhaps that's one of those, so I'm going to give homework

40:05back perhaps, that's one of those moments that there is two council members

40:09that sit on the board, maybe that's a discussion that could be had in this

40:13particular case at the board itself. How could we do future years differently in

40:18terms of communicating? Is there something else? Because you know you do ask the

40:22police chief to come out and attend with your deputies as well, your town halls,

40:27but if the questions are out of sync with the time in, then that is

40:31problematic. So I see that that might be a takeaway for the council members that

40:36sit on the board to take away. And then I would say that one other change perhaps

40:40next year and next June, we're doing our annual reports and we have asked GPS to

40:48come and participate. That's another way for you to sort of take some of this

40:52message back to your constituents. That annual report is on all city services,

40:57but we've extended the invite and I know for a fact that GPS have said yes, we'll

41:01be there. So that, you know, we haven't publicly said the date yet other than I

41:06just said June, but June of next year, that's another place to come and delegate

41:10because we will then speak to sort of organized measured outcomes and

41:15priorities because it's part of the strategic plan. So that's a bit two-fold.

41:19There's an immediacy councillor class and that maybe two of your colleagues will

41:23carry back to the board and then maybe we think about this in broader terms for

41:27boards next year. Are we out of sync perhaps with their, you either force

41:32their process into hours and you demand that or we maybe adjust this so that

41:37there is a way to bring information forward at a separate time and you just

41:41deal with the city portion of a budget perhaps. So that might be a place to go

41:46in future. That will be one of the debriefs we have at the end.

41:49Great. Okay. Thanks, Glenn. Thank you.

41:52Councillor Caiten, I have you next.

41:55Thank you. My question is for Chief Coby. So I apologize in advance. I'm going to be

42:01asking you to like imagine a bunch of situations based on budget approval and I

42:07know it's going to be a hard list to try to work through. So if we didn't

42:13approve the increase, what would that look like in terms of the impact to your

42:20operations? Okay. Now just so I know, where's the camera? Because I'd like to be

42:28looking at Councillor Caiten and is it here or it's up here?

42:34Okay. Well, I think first of all, the impact would be immediate and significant,

42:41but I think it would also be, I think it's fair from a transparency perspective

42:45for the community and council to know our budget, so the Police Services Act,

42:49Section 39 of the Police Services Act, there are certain follow ups that the

42:55board would have, I think, a duty to explore with respect to the budget. So

43:01so it's not necessarily what would a service reduction look like because

43:05first we'd have to deal with the Police Services Act in that process. So

43:11having said that, right now the budget that's been presented and to

43:20Councillor Gibson's very good point earlier, everything's been staggered in

43:24those positions over the course. There's no full FTEs at the beginning of the

43:27year. All the work that's been done over well over a year is the absolute minimum

43:34budget required to provide adequate and effective policing service for this

43:39community. So and it's really, and I've said this publicly a few times,

43:48my biggest concern about the budget is that we're phasing in point in time

43:52recommendations over four years and the demands and expectations of our

43:56communities and the demands I put on our members day in and day out, I would

44:01have a much greater level of comfort if this was over two or three years. So

44:05we are already extending out the jeopardy on a number of fronts from my

44:10perspective. Having said that, if the board was to avail itself of the

44:17opportunities and if we ended up someday with a service reduction from the

44:21respect of operational deployment, the community would see very significant

44:27and they would see immediate impact. So they would see immediate reductions in

44:31areas that are not core policing emergency response duties. So proactive

44:36things, areas I won't maybe list things specifically because I want to be

44:41careful and be respectful of the board. Things that are not frontline response

44:46that require an emergency response, those proactive areas that our community

44:50wants, deserves and needs, they would all be examined, many of them reduced and

44:55quite possibly eliminated.

44:59Thank you very much. And so when you're talking about the board response, are

45:04you referring to, I know I'm very apologetic that I don't know the exact

45:07name, but there's a review board, correct? For when municipalities,

45:14there's some sort of provincial recourse options?

45:19Yes, so it's O'Cops of the Ontario Civilian Police Review Committee or

45:23might have got that out of order, but essentially it's a tribunal where the

45:27police service and I in good faith could not support a reduction. So if my

45:32board was to ask me today, I would, I would, my recommendation would be they

45:36cannot go less than this for to serve the community and to support our

45:40members. So I would be recommending that that would be an absolute requirement to

45:44go to the province and at which point we would have to essentially, I guess we

45:49would make our position, the city would make theirs. We would have a very

45:52robust and comprehensive discussion about needs, comparators and historical

45:59investments, et cetera. So that would be, I'm trying to be transparent here. I

46:03cannot go to my board and recommend anything less because I already have

46:06concerns with the way it is.

46:08Thank you. I really appreciate your clarification. Thanks.

46:13Thank you, Councillor Katelyn. I'm going to move to Councillor Gibson and then I

46:17see Councillor Billings and then Councillor Org.

46:21Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor to chief. Thank you for joining us tonight.

46:26I know this from watching the video myself. I kind of feel like you're

46:30speaking to it, but you haven't said it clearly to, to service the community is

46:35this is the bare minimum, but you're, you're also speaking on behalf of your

46:39service as well to, you're supporting the wellbeing of your, your frontline

46:44officers as well. There's a big piece of, of humanism here that we, we aren't

46:48talking about. It's more than a dollar figure, but it's actually keeping your,

46:51your staff's wellbeing in mind as well. Yeah, we are in our industry. We are

46:56breaking people and we don't have it. We can't keep doing it. We are breaking

46:59people here. We are breaking people across the province and what police

47:03officers and other first responders have lived through for the last three years

47:07is, is like they, they didn't get to work virtually. They didn't get to go home.

47:12March 12th, the pandemic was declared in the next day. They were at work in real

47:16life, serving our community day in and day out. They were doing that fearful of

47:21their own health, fearful of making their families sick as we sit, literally as we

47:25sit here tonight. We have people in the Niagara border region dealing with

47:29another unknown. Every day we are asking more and more of our police officers

47:33and we're having fewer and fewer resources. For those of you who may not

47:37didn't get a chance to see my presentation. Um, it, uh, it, there's a thing

47:42called presumptive legislation. About five years ago, it was passed in the

47:45last five years. Our members have responded to over a thousand human

47:50deaths or homicide investigations. They go to multiple. They've investigated

47:54multiple deaths of children in a 48 hour period in this city. In 2023, we asked

48:00our members, they were the first to respond to people who died by suicide. Three

48:05people in 48 hours and every time we asked them to do this, they do it. They

48:09do it with kindness and professionalism. The very best. And I've said this a

48:13number of times when they're done the call, they get in the car, they get on

48:17their radio and they take their next call. So I don't know. I could talk for

48:21two hours and I know that's not possible here tonight. It is personal for me.

48:27I get you for sure. Um, my last question because I asked the library board, I

48:32think you've partly answered it already, uh, phasing in these hires, uh, the

48:36ability to defer some upfront costs. I know it's January is around the corner.

48:39So maybe some of these officers won't be coming on board until May, June. Is

48:42there any way to sort of fund half three quarters in the next year? So they're

48:47already staggered and we're already planning to hire them in January to

48:50have them ready to go. So we're already staggering them in each quarter or

48:54based on OPC. Okay. So you've done that as part of your budget. Okay. Thank you.

48:58Councillor Billings. So when you say chief, you're already, you're already to

49:05go in January, like with these new hires. Is this what you're saying? Because

49:10the amount that goes into your budget. So I'll just ask it a different way. Under

49:14your budget request, your expansion for new hires, it was like how many and for

49:21how much like was it 400,000 500,000? Do you remember cheap?

49:26Um, off the top of my head. So it's, uh, it's six new sworn officers a year, um,

49:32for each of the next four years, um, two civilians in each of those years as

49:36well. And then the, uh, the, the WSIB impact because we have not been funding

49:42our WSIB responsibility for the presumptive legislation. So the ask

49:46financial ask them for 2024 then, because you just said this is your plan for

49:52hiring. How much was that? Was that 300,000 400,000 500,000? It is because you

50:01mentioned a lot of new hires there in your plan. Yeah, it's so I can't off the

50:11I don't want to give you the wrong number of counts. They're all being phased

50:14in. Unfortunately, Sarah's not here. Um, the, uh, they're already being phased

50:19in. So we haven't hired people, but we have, we have the queue ready so we can

50:24hire based on what we're the finances we have as they come staggered in. That's

50:30what we're working with right now. Yes. I you're hiring like just an example, five,

50:37but you're not putting that full five financial compliment into the budget for

50:422024. No, no, no, they're all being staggered in each like each quarter. So

50:47they don't annualize till the following year each year. Okay. Okay. That's

50:53helpful. And then, and then, uh, uh, chief, I heard you're coming to the word

50:59for town hall. Is that correct tomorrow night? Yep. I have a meeting in Toronto

51:03when I'm coming back to go to the town hall after that. Thank you, chief. All

51:08right. Over to you, counselor work. Thanks, Glenn. Um, thanks for being here,

51:13chief Colby. So there's, there's no question that people value the service

51:17that well, police provides. And when we call 911, we want you and your staff to

51:21show up. So, um, no question about that. I think people are reacting to, um, the

51:27amount of the increase over four years, right, which is $18.1 million. And I

51:31think they're also responding to that average property tax cost by service,

51:36which is, which is significant for both police. So, um, I think that the community

51:40is, is fair in, in just asking for more information about that. I had two

51:46questions for you. So as we look at what are other cities doing, right? Well,

51:50we're seeing their police departments also escalate in cost. The KPMG report is

51:55supposed to catch GPS up to sort of a provincial average. What happens over

52:00the course of the next four years to make sure we're not in the same position

52:04in four years to, oh, to have to catch up to what is happening in surrounding

52:08municipalities. Do you have a process in place to be, you know, constantly

52:12looking at the operations budget and that type of thing? Yes. So, and I really

52:18appreciate the question. And we've tried really hard to have a really

52:21comprehensive analysis, all the links, all the material and, uh, and I've been at

52:26all the town halls. So I think we have a responsibility to engage the community

52:30with respect to, and I'd have to ask Tara, with respect to, like for us in the

52:36library, we probably have our capital and debt financing as part of that cost.

52:40Um, I guess for the rest of the city, that'd be lumped in as capital and debt.

52:44So program line's not exactly the same. Am I right or wrong? I just wasn't sure

52:48about that. When it to a counselor, uh, works question. Um, yes. So on the, on

52:54the service, the cost by service on the property tax, is that your capital and

52:59debt financing being included? Yeah, in that line. That's right. Yeah. Okay. Um,

53:03so as far as catching up to other municipalities, I think an open source

53:07look would probably show we're at the low end of what other services are

53:10looking for next year. Um, we are already going to be catching up because a

53:15recommendation we got to get to the average, we would have to do all the

53:20growth enhancements next year. And we know that's not viable. So we're already

53:25going to be catching up. Um, we know like we, in theory, we're going to have the

53:3020 in 20 27. We will be at the 20 23 average while we're going to continue to

53:36grow and while other services are going to continue to expand. So we are

53:39playing catch up, but we can't, I don't think the community, it's just not,

53:43it's not feasible to do it all in one year. So we are going into this knowing

53:46we're going to be behind in four years. Good to know. Okay. Second question. I'm

53:52just looking at the annual capital funding transfers. Um, and this is in

53:57millions. So there's it, it might be a question for you, Chief Kobe, it might

54:00be for a finance staff. There's a transfer into the police capital, um, reserve

54:07of, you know, 4.1 million, 4.2 million, 4.4. Is there any benefit or opportunity

54:14to reduce those and smooth them out given that it's a brand new building? Right?

54:19So I imagine a portion of that capital is going to be equipment for those new

54:23officers and capital can be a lot of things. But is there room to either

54:30reduce that transfer or push it out? So I think our, and I'll tear can correct

54:35me. So our capital is for equipment, not the building. Okay. Our capital is not,

54:44it's not no building. So that is the equipment, the vehicles, the fleet,

54:48the tech. So there's no opportunity to smooth it because it's not like the other

54:52large infrastructure things that came up two or three months ago. They've all

54:56been taken out without a new date placed. So that's all required. Did day to day

55:02stuff.

55:04Councillor Billings, just letting you know you just need to mute. Okay. Councillor

55:10That's it. We're trying, Chief. We're just trying. And I really do. It really is. I

55:15don't make, we don't make this lightly. But we literally like KPMG and I think

55:21our senior team, our deputies and our legal and with Sarah, I think we figured

55:25out that we had 140 years combined experience, just the five of us. But we

55:29didn't rely on that. That's why we went to an outside person to get some

55:32validation and some, some resourcing ideas outside. Okay. Thanks. Thanks,

55:37Chief Colby. Going once, going twice, on Guelph police, questions, clarity. Thank

55:45you. Questions of clarity related to county. Now we don't have, I believe

55:56anyone from the county here, but staff can try to field questions. I see

56:01Councillor Bousetiel.

56:07Just me. Thank you. And through you to the CAO Stuart, it was something that you

56:14said earlier about in June, we're going to have reports to council with

56:20measurement and out and outcomes related to our strategic plan. Does that also

56:25apply to the county and specifically to social services and all that external

56:29board funding?

56:35Directly to you, councillor, because we're not going through the mayor. Can I say

56:40respectfully, it will, because we're asking all the folks that sit under that

56:44umbrella of the ABCs or at least the agencies and boards, not all of our

56:49committees. But I also would say this, there's a governance discussion because

56:53you've instructed us to do that as well. That might be the better home for it. If

56:58we can make that work and I say that with a view that there is a, there's a

57:01meeting tomorrow on some of the governance pieces. That might be a better

57:05home because you can then drill very specifically into that one is set up for

57:11social services, but housing, it won't be childcare. It won't be old W. So we

57:17will extend the invitation to the county, but I think the conversation will go,

57:23well, what parts of the counties? Because the other, you know, the Guapoli

57:27services is very clear. It's a service that you're asking for. The one at the

57:31county is really housing that we interact with. So yes, and I think more to come on

57:36this file as we evolve this governance piece and perhaps, you know, get us back

57:42to something that used to exist before where there was potentially a joint

57:46committee between city council members and the county council members.

57:51If I could have a follow up, just one. Thank you very much for that. And I

57:54think, you know, from where I sit as a new counselor, I struggle sometimes with

57:59we get the bill and not knowing what's in between and having an opportunity to

58:05have input into the plan and input or those kinds of conversations. So maybe

58:10that is governance, but we're sitting here at budget and we get the bill. And

58:14it's a little bit difficult to have the conversations with residents about, well,

58:18what are we getting for this? Because I'm missing that detailed middle piece of

58:23that. Thank you. So maybe I would say this, Glenn, I know you want to keep us

58:28going and let me not try to hinder that too much. But if I was maybe picking up

58:32a theme as well, perhaps there's a theme on some of this budget in on how it

58:37comes in from the other agencies. And I know that I see them hard and too. But I

58:42also, he's mentioned it to me as well. Are we off kilter or we bet? And perhaps

58:47we are because of just what you said at the end. You're missing an important

58:50component of it. It's not on purpose. No one's doing that intentionally at any

58:54of the boards and agencies. So that's certainly not my, that's not the threat

58:58I want. But maybe there's a theme that we can take away for future years. The

59:02budget and might need to be separated a little bit. And then ultimately you can

59:08deal with the city budget and then the board's budgets. I don't know. I'm just

59:12reacting a little bit to the conversation tonight as it's come up now a couple

59:15of times. Thanks, Glenn. Thanks for that. Anything else on local boards and shared

59:21services before we move on? Questions of clarity? Not seeing anything? Yeah.

59:32Do you want to? Yeah. So for anyone, police and or library, just again, thank

59:38you so much for being here and and and you can you can go.

59:51All right, well, turn it back to you to kind of move us into phase two. All

59:55right, phase two. So thanks, everyone. That was a bit of a test run, how this is

59:59going to go. I'm going to maybe just step back for a minute to talk about how

1:00:03we're going to move through the other categories. So staff, as you know,

1:00:07prepared a way for you to think about tonight, those sort of four or five

1:00:10categories in the council memo you received last week. Maybe Andrew, if you

1:00:15wouldn't just bring up that slide number two. First, in terms of where to start.

1:00:19So call some will call them option categories. So starting with deferring

1:00:23new operating next slide, starting with new operating deferring new operating

1:00:31budget investments. We've already talked about local boards and shared services,

1:00:35then reducing investment in service enhancements and hundred re capital

1:00:39projects, then slowing down the pace of growth and then considering service

1:00:42levels. So the sort of council memo and the attachments that came through talk

1:00:46about those will call those sort of our option categories. That's we're going to

1:00:49work through tonight. Within each of those option categories, there are

1:00:53specific investments. Think of these as your menu items on November 7th.

1:00:58CIO steward referred to sort of bringing back a menu of items. So think of those

1:01:02as your menu items. And for each one of those investments, of course, there are

1:01:06impacts and risks associated with deferring those to future years. So the

1:01:10goal tonight, quite simply as we move through the rest of these categories is

1:01:14clarity. So we're going to focus on clarity around what the investments are

1:01:19that remain in the budget, clarity around how those investments connect to the

1:01:23strat plan, master plans, other council approved direction and clarity around

1:01:28the impacts and risks of deferring those items. So within this and the support's

1:01:33already available to you, things like budget buddies and budget board between

1:01:36tonight and November 29th, we want to make sure you're well positioned to amend

1:01:40the budget as you see fit. Okay. So here's how this is going to work. You've

1:01:43received information in advance. These are the option categories for attachments,

1:01:49one that corresponds with each one of those categories, which detail the

1:01:53specific investments that are covered within each. Okay. We're going to begin

1:01:57with that first category, the deferring new operating budget investments. And

1:02:02we're going to get a sense from Mayor and Council which investments you have

1:02:06clarifying questions about. So we're going to try to stay away from comments.

1:02:09We're going to really try to focus on questions. And staff will frame up a

1:02:13short response that provides clarity on that investment and again how it

1:02:16connects to strat plan risks and impacts. Mayor and Council, we're going to give

1:02:21you the chance to ask a follow up question to that, that sort of, you know,

1:02:25statement about what the risks and impacts of deferring that item are. And

1:02:28then we're going to try as much as possible just to move to the next item.

1:02:31Otherwise, we're not going to get through all the categories. Okay. So and we'll

1:02:36proceed like that until we finish the category or we've hit the time that

1:02:41we've set for that category. Now I'm going to tell you already 10 minutes over

1:02:45what we had set for local boards and shared services. So you're going to help

1:02:48me out move through this pretty quickly. I'm not pointing fingers. So we're

1:02:54confident this approach focuses the conversation and gets us through each

1:02:57option category in a systematic way. Okay. Couple of reminders. We will not be

1:03:02focusing tonight on items that have already been deferred. We won't be

1:03:06addressing new additions to the budget. Not during the workshop component

1:03:11anyway. And we'll not be supporting real time math in the room. Okay. We're

1:03:14really just tonight is about that clarity. Questions get us that clarity.

1:03:19Comments kind of muddy the waters and send us down rabbit holes. My role is to

1:03:23move us along. That means we may not get a chance to ask every question in every

1:03:27category. I'll try to be fair and you know, share the love, make sure everyone

1:03:31gets a chance. I'll also rely on the principle that though you maybe didn't

1:03:35get a chance to ask your question, one of your wise colleagues in the room

1:03:38maybe asked it for you. Okay. So finally, at any point in the conversation, if it

1:03:43tips into the territory that we're talking about, you know, identifiable

1:03:47individuals, contracts, those kinds of things, we've reserved a portion of the

1:03:53evening to go into closed for that. And so clerks is going to help me out by just

1:03:56sort of collecting that list of items. We're not going to discuss it now, but

1:04:00we'll save it till the end. Okay. So let's get started with deferring new

1:04:05operating budget investments. This is our largest option category. We sent a

1:04:13poll in advance. We know not everyone had a chance to dive into that. Okay. We did

1:04:18that to give us a bit of a heat map of where folks had questions. So we're

1:04:22going to do a little bit of a hybrid. I'm going to tee up some things that

1:04:25clearly there were some questions about. We didn't ask you what the questions

1:04:28were, but we have a sense that there's questions and then we'll ask you if

1:04:33there's any other questions related to that first category that we can get

1:04:37staff to respond to. Okay. So I'm going to start with Mr. O'Brien, actually, if

1:04:46you wouldn't mind. There were three budget items that were in that new,

1:04:52deferring new operating expenses category that Council identified. They had

1:04:57clarifying questions about the Council and Committee Coordinator, the Board

1:05:01and Committee Coordinator, and the Advisory Committees reimbursements and

1:05:06training. So maybe would you mind just giving a bit of clarity on what those

1:05:10are and impact services moving those and then we'll see if there's follow-ups.

1:05:13Yes, certainly. Thank you, Glenn. And thanks to Council for the opportunity to

1:05:16chat tonight. I'm the guinea pig to try and move through this quickly. So I'll

1:05:20do that. The Council Committee Coordinator position that we have in 2024 is

1:05:25required to support hybrid meetings that we've become accustomed to. And quite

1:05:29frankly, the engagement and accessibility that those meetings offer. These

1:05:33meetings that we're in right now are more complex than what we operated in

1:05:362019 and early 2020. Since the transition to hybrid meetings and as a result of

1:05:42the pandemic, we've spent an additional about 1200 hours, staff hours each year

1:05:46supporting these meetings. That's partly because the transition to hybrid are

1:05:52now in broadcasting these and bringing in and out delegates from meetings. I'll

1:05:59cut right to the impacts. The impact of not implementing the Council and

1:06:03Committee Coordinator position will mean that we will transition back to

1:06:06in-person only meetings. That will be the level of service that we can provide.

1:06:11And so we'll no longer be able to support the hybrid option and would revert to

1:06:14those sort of pre-pandemic style. There's also the possibility of some risks in

1:06:18not filling the role. Capacity and timelines for us to support policy

1:06:22review work, governance reviews may be impacted as a result. That's the type of

1:06:26thing we would be working through. On the Board and Committee Coordinator

1:06:29position, this is intended to support what's anticipated to be more

1:06:33legislative support services for Council's advisory committees. This is

1:06:37predominantly due to the legal decisions and court rulings that have been made

1:06:40in Ontario that really elevate your advisory committees of Council to the

1:06:44status of local boards. And so we require the ability to offer those

1:06:49department or those advisory committees similar levels of legislative

1:06:54support that Council receives. Things like supporting their access to the

1:06:58Integrity Commissioner, close meeting investigations, ensuring that agendas and

1:07:02minutes are posted in a timely fashion. It's also directly linked to the

1:07:07Advisory Committee of Council framework that you've received and is on its way

1:07:10through the Council process. It really does directly advance the strategic

1:07:16plan objective of leading with accountability, which is in the

1:07:18foundations theme of the strategic plan 3.2 and 3.2.1. Currently, we have one

1:07:25Board and Committee Coordinator that supports about four advisory committees

1:07:29of Council. The impact of not approving this is that we would refer to supporting

1:07:33only four advisory committees of Council in future years following the Phase II

1:07:40review that's outlined in the Advisory Committee of Council framework. Those

1:07:44committees would very likely be your statutory required committees, Heritage

1:07:48Gwelf, Accessibility Advisory Committee, et cetera. And then finally, the last

1:07:53item that was on the list was the Advisory Committee's reimbursement and

1:07:56training. This is really intended to support training for advisory committees

1:08:00of Council. It's also intended to support reasonable compensation and covering

1:08:05participation-related expenses, which is an important equity-related commitment

1:08:10for enabling the work of those committees. And frankly, to ensuring that we get

1:08:16meaningful contribution from a wide range of residents on those committees,

1:08:21including those that may face economic barriers to participation, that again is

1:08:26also linked to your strategic plan foundations theme and the leading with

1:08:31accountability section. Removing the funding would just simply mean that we

1:08:35wouldn't be able to necessarily support that level of equity support for those

1:08:40committees. And I'll leave it at that. Thanks, Glen. Happy to answer questions.

1:08:43One or two follow-ups. Yes, Mayor and Councillor Earl.

1:08:48Thank you. Say, Steve, I'm sorry to put you on the spot here. I'm just, I'm

1:08:51struggling with the first position because we're here tonight and we're

1:08:57running hybrid. And so when I hear you say, if you don't give me this person,

1:09:03we can't run hybrid anymore. I just, I don't understand that. Like we're doing

1:09:07it right now. We've been doing it. Yeah. So can you just explain that risk part?

1:09:11I'm not trying to belittle the, I'm not trying to diminish what you're trying to

1:09:16like as the leader of the clerk's department to say, Hey, we need this. I,

1:09:19I, I, but I'm struggling to understand how a switch gets turned off all of a

1:09:23sudden. Yes. If we don't on the 29th agree to this person, very well, we're doing

1:09:28it right now. Do you understand what I mean? 100% very fair question. Thank you,

1:09:31Mr. Mayor, for the question. We have been filling the requirements to staff these

1:09:36meetings in a, in a, in a gapping manner. So we've, we've contracted staff to, to

1:09:41support that in this regard. And so we've been, we've been managing to the

1:09:45bottom line in that sense. And, and, and so that would be the difference there.

1:09:50Councillor, I'll give you the last follow up through you to Mr. O'Brien. Mr.

1:09:58O'Brien, I don't want to go into close for this. So if that's required, if it

1:10:03can just be answered online, would we not have a requirement under AODA to provide

1:10:10the capacity for hybrid meetings and therefore is there not going to be a

1:10:16cost incurred regardless? And it could be the equivalent of the, of what's being

1:10:22projected.

1:10:24Good question. And thank you for that question, Councillor. We, there's not a,

1:10:29there's not an explicit requirement for the hybrid level of meetings. It certainly

1:10:33adds a high degree of accessibility for, for persons that want to access

1:10:37council meetings. We would still handle in-person meetings with the equipment we

1:10:41have in the room. It may not be utilized to its full extent, but the closed

1:10:46caption that you're seeing, you know, on the screens behind me are an example of

1:10:49what would continue in an in-person format. And so there is still accessible

1:10:54provisions included in, in what we're offering. I don't believe that any of

1:10:58that commentary requires a transition into a closed session, but there is a

1:11:02higher degree of accessibility that we're offering as a result of hybrid

1:11:05meetings, not necessarily something that is tied directly or required under the,

1:11:11under the AODA per se.

1:11:14Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. We're going to move to the next sort of

1:11:19item that came through on the poll as a, as a hot topic, folks that had follow-up

1:11:24questions. And that's going to be for my friends from transit, if you don't mind

1:11:28making your way down to the podium.

1:11:32Mayor and council identified there were three route reviews that were tagged as

1:11:38having some questions. So year three, year four, and year six route review. So I

1:11:44wondering if my colleagues from transit wouldn't mind just giving a sense of

1:11:47what those are and the risks and impacts of those not being in the budget. And

1:11:51then we'll do a couple of follow-ups if necessary.

1:11:58Hi again, everybody. Sorry, technical difficulties. I'm just going to orient my

1:12:03notes while we're here. So year three specifically addresses several items. So

1:12:12in terms of, in terms of our year three, we have outlined as a increased

1:12:20frequency for route five from September to April, introducing Sunday on-demand

1:12:27service hours in the AM and the PM extended periods and two deferrals into

1:12:33further years. Sorry, three deferrals that are into further years. Now, the impact

1:12:40related to deferrals within these years, we currently have, if we're talking

1:12:46impact to the customer, we experience overloads and demand pressure on route

1:12:50five currently. The on-time performance of that route based on the number of

1:12:55opera, sorry, the number of passengers that we experience also affects that

1:13:00on-time performance. We are in support of vision zero. With that, we also need to

1:13:06tweak some of our service in order to accommodate safer road safety. Now, in

1:13:11terms of the service on Saturdays as well, it sees a high demand in terms of

1:13:17those service standards identified in our future ready action plan. And then

1:13:21Sunday service is one of our number one requested expansions of service. In

1:13:26terms of the service standards, it outlines thresholds that would meet to

1:13:30add one hour at the top or bottom of service. If it meets the threshold, this

1:13:35scenario that we're presenting for the Sunday would actually allow five

1:13:39additional hours using on-demand service in those extended periods to match the

1:13:4499. In terms of the impact to the strategic plan and the alignment, we're

1:13:51looking to move people throughout the city that aligns with our transportation

1:13:55master plan and creating that quality transit network, providing equity and

1:13:59affordability and reliability in a system that can be as convenient as

1:14:03competitive as a personal vehicle. With that, in the strategic plan, we are

1:14:09making a lot of our decisions as well in terms of an equitable lens that we can

1:14:13apply for all of the folks within the city to get multiple modes and

1:14:17transportation access throughout it. And that includes mobility and

1:14:21accessibility standards within those features as well. In terms of our

1:14:27growth also, we accommodate or we include also carbon emissions as part of our

1:14:34goal of meeting our carbon footprint by 2050 officially with the electrification

1:14:41of the fleet as it expands. In terms of year four, we see several deferrals for

1:14:47the multi-year budget with one line item, which is the introduction of the

1:14:52Route 98 Speedvale. With it being deferred into the year four, we currently

1:14:58experience overloads on our, meaning too many passengers, bus full on our Route

1:15:0317 and 18 currently. That is the two routes that service the Conestoga

1:15:09campus. We see only an increase in the amount of enrollment at that campus

1:15:14location along with their future anticipated campus in downtown Guelph.

1:15:19The Route 98 Speedvale will provide that connection between the two campuses

1:15:24while also affecting the impact of the passenger overloads that we're

1:15:28experiencing on those routes. And in terms of year six, year six is, see

1:15:36several deferrals within that. It has a phase through three of the Route 98. So

1:15:42one of the things that we discussed in our plan is there are some uncontrollable

1:15:47deferrals that we've had and that's to align ourselves better with other

1:15:52construction projects and initiatives that are going on at the city currently.

1:15:56So what we took into account in terms of our phasing for the 98 Speedvale, it's

1:16:01intended to be a full crosstown from the West End to the East End. However,

1:16:06because of the construction timelines, we did not want to introduce something

1:16:10that would be on detour and affecting our customers negatively. So that's why

1:16:14we've phased it out into sections that better align with the construction

1:16:17timelines. In addition to that, we see an altered routing for the Route 13 that

1:16:24provides bi-directional service for different people on those routes that

1:16:30provide different access and connections into the downtown. And in terms of the

1:16:35other deferrals within the project, several of those were related to either

1:16:39university enhancements or enhancements generally within the city there. And the

1:16:44impacts are similar to our strategic alignment for the strategic plan as well

1:16:50as our transportation master plan. And within that, our service reliability to

1:16:55the customers that we serve every day.

1:17:03I think we got time for a follow-up question. We'll be out of it in just a

1:17:06minute. And I'd like to remind you of a follow-up question about budget reduction.

1:17:10Councillor Orohrich. Thanks, Glen. Route number five is in my neighborhood. So, you

1:17:26know, no one here loves a deferral of anything. But I think when you look at

1:17:32the budget and you see transit, it is one of the most significant both capital

1:17:38investments and operating impact investments, right? So I've lost my

1:17:44operating one. If I just look at the operating, we're looking, so total of

1:17:52transit, we're looking at a $12 million increase over the whole period of 2023.

1:17:58That's the capital. And in particular, it's a significant, sorry, that's the

1:18:02operating. And a lot of that's being driven by electrification and expansion

1:18:08at the same time. So have you taken a look? And I'm going to try and find my

1:18:12notes here. Have you taken a look at either slowing down the pace of the

1:18:17electrification or slowing down the pace of the expansion? Because trying to do

1:18:22both at the same time, and it's $34 million of electric buses in four

1:18:27years, right? It's a major hit. So I'm wondering if you've explored slowing

1:18:33down either one or phasing them in over a longer period of time.

1:18:38Thank you, Councillor. In terms of the phasing in for electrification, I think

1:18:43that that should be a question posed to our fleet services group operational.

1:18:48They'll be better answered from that in terms of the expansions of the plan

1:18:53themselves. What we wanted to do in terms of the phasing that we showed

1:18:57everyone was that our current network needed enhancement as well as our

1:19:05future ready action plan. So the people who are currently using transit, it is

1:19:10nice to get a new cross town route. What we wanted to pay, you know, service to

1:19:15is that people who are currently in our network using routes that are not going

1:19:19to get an enhancement, at least for many years, are going to see an improvement

1:19:24to their current services that exist as well as then our enhancements on top

1:19:29of that coming with our future ready action plan. So as we look through the

1:19:32years, we've already sort of phased that out in terms of impact directly to in

1:19:38terms of expansion and then followed by our future ready action plan

1:19:42expansions. The more intricate piece within the expansions themselves is

1:19:47that they're interconnected. So by shifting one route, it usually impacts two

1:19:53or three routes that have to change in order for that one route to see that

1:19:56difference. And that's why you'll see a lump of ones that are

1:20:00transferred and wonderful into another year because they're joined together.

1:20:05So an example of that would be you can't

1:20:09decommission the Route 11 until you enhance the 97 and the 3.

1:20:15By changing the 97 and the 3,

1:20:18you are able and having your 98 crosstown,

1:20:21they're all interlinked with one another.

1:20:22So it's tough to pull it apart much further in order to have that.

1:20:29We've already spread the plan from 10 to 13 years.

1:20:32So we also want to be mindful of the further we spread,

1:20:37we want to keep it in line with what is needed on the road as well.

1:20:44Okay. Thanks, Soritz.

1:20:46I found my sheet and it's actually 39 million

1:20:50for electrification of the buses for the next four years.

1:20:53So I appreciate that.

1:20:54It's helpful to know they're interconnected.

1:20:56My other question and you know it's coming is about the digital signs.

1:21:02So we've talked about this.

1:21:03Can I stop you there for a second?

1:21:05We're going to get to digital signs.

1:21:07I want to see if there was other questions about route review first,

1:21:10if that's okay. Councillor Gibson.

1:21:12Thank you. Just a real practical question about

1:21:16the implementation of the electrification.

1:21:21We heard $34 million over four years for electric buses.

1:21:26Do we have and will we have the infrastructure in place

1:21:30to charge these buses in the next four years?

1:21:31I know they take a ton of energy to charge.

1:21:34I just want to make sure and listen, I'm excited about this.

1:21:38Let me stop that by saying I'm very excited about this.

1:21:40But the worst thing our city could have was a parking lot full of electric buses

1:21:44that we cannot charge, but we bought.

1:21:46So I just want to make sure that we're ahead of that

1:21:48and we do have the energy infrastructure to charge the buses and use them properly.

1:21:54Okay, so I'm going to ask the question about electrification.

1:21:57We're moving past route review, so I'm seeing everyone that's okay to move past review.

1:22:02Councillor Orrork, you had a question about electrification as well.

1:22:04So maybe Councillor Billings, was it about route review?

1:22:09I think it is.

1:22:11Okay, go for it.

1:22:13Okay, so in the budget for 2024,

1:22:17the operating increases four and a half million,

1:22:212025, another around four million, and then it goes up.

1:22:26But my question is with the route review, is there anything we can do to smooth it over

1:22:31so that we don't have eight and a half million in operating 2024 and 2025?

1:22:40Can we smooth that out looking at how we implement the routes?

1:22:51Sorry, transit has already spread it out over 13 years.

1:22:56If directed, we can spread it out further if that's the direction of council.

1:23:01And if it, like I would imagine you've talked about this,

1:23:05so if it was pushed back yet one more time, what would the impact be then for 2024, 2025?

1:23:13And if you don't know, that's fine, because then you can let us know.

1:23:16Like what the alternative would be compared to what we have in front of us.

1:23:22So Councillor Billings, I'm just going to jump in to say I doubt the staff

1:23:26have come prepared with that level of extension.

1:23:28We'll take that off.

1:23:29Why aren't you prepared for that?

1:23:32So I'm just going to caution us here.

1:23:34We got about 25 minutes to get through this whole bucket.

1:23:38I know we've got some transit folks and we got questions for transit,

1:23:40but I also know we've got other questions.

1:23:43So just because we have these two folks here,

1:23:47I'll go to your question about signage, digital signage,

1:23:50Councillor Verruch, because I think you can answer that.

1:23:52And then we'll go to the electrification question and move on.

1:23:55Thanks, thanks, Glen.

1:24:01So through the mayor, I guess, to staff,

1:24:05the capital budget forecast has almost $6.8 million for digital signs

1:24:10from now to 2020 or 233.

1:24:14And it has some significant operational impact as well.

1:24:18Can we scale that down so that we have digital signage at our hub locations

1:24:24rather than at every bus stop in the city?

1:24:28Have you looked at what an alternate model looks like?

1:24:31Thank you, Councillor Rourke.

1:24:33Yes, we have done that.

1:24:34And our recommendation would be to do the hundred top stops at the city

1:24:39throughout the city.

1:24:40And that would be approximately $1.8 million.

1:24:42Currently, that's spread over three years, so $600,000 each year.

1:24:46And then the corresponding operating impacts with it.

1:24:50The greatest impact would be to the customers who do not have access to data on their mobile

1:24:55devices at the bus stops as they won't have real-time information or service alerts.

1:25:00But we can spread it over.

1:25:01Currently, it's spread over three years, $1.8 million.

1:25:05But if we, as Council desires it, can be spread out further.

1:25:09And then there's still an additional $5 million past the, I believe it's 2029 and

1:25:15onward that could be spread out further and or removed.

1:25:19Right, so that's my concern, right?

1:25:22So out of a total sort of capital plan of $514 million between now and 2023,

1:25:30I'm concerned about $6 million, $6.8 million for digital signs.

1:25:34So is there an expectation that after you've done the 100 most popular stops,

1:25:39that that expands to every single stop in the city?

1:25:43That is currently what's in the budget.

1:25:45We can scale it back and spread it out over a longer period of time.

1:25:49I'll have an intention.

1:25:51Thanks.

1:25:51Okay. Thank you so much.

1:25:55Questions, it sounds like we have a couple of questions about electric figations.

1:25:58So we'll get staff up here to the podium.

1:26:03I think the first question was on, do we have the charging infrastructure?

1:26:07Will we have the charging infrastructure in place?

1:26:09Will we have the charging infrastructure in place?

1:26:12To Councillor Gibson, as we bring in the electric buses, we are expanding the

1:26:17charging capabilities with our partners and facilities and transit.

1:26:21So we have enough charging capabilities right now.

1:26:24We're also looking at various options for en route and we're bringing both online at the same time.

1:26:30And Councillor Roach, sorry, just to follow up.

1:26:33So, but we have, we're having a massive infusion of electrical buses in the next four years.

1:26:39So will we have the capacity in four years to charge them all?

1:26:43I just, I dread seeing a parking lot with buses that aren't being used.

1:26:48To Councillor Gibson, absolutely.

1:26:50We're looking as we order the buses, we're making sure that we have the charging infrastructure to do it.

1:26:55We're looking at en route charging.

1:26:57We're looking at moving the buses around.

1:26:59So some are charging while some are en route.

1:27:01There's, there's very options that we are exploring and we're moving forward on both at the same time.

1:27:08So the answer is yes.

1:27:10Councillor Roach, you had a question about electrification as well?

1:27:12Or has that been answered?

1:27:15The question really is about, are we receiving the buses on the paces, the pace that we thought we would?

1:27:22Or are they coming in more slowly?

1:27:23I understand they were, they were slow to come.

1:27:25And can we slow down some of the bus replacement?

1:27:31Just given the cost of what they are.

1:27:33So we've, we're looking at $39.7 million over the next four years for the bus electrification replacement.

1:27:43Have we looked at that?

1:27:44Yeah, Councillor Roach, to, we have looked at that.

1:27:49So we have a life cycle for the buses right now.

1:27:51So the buses that are being replaced by electrification are at end of life.

1:27:56So we would need to replace those buses anyway, whether it be with diesel or with, with, with electric.

1:28:02They've reached end of life and it's more costly to keep them than to actually to replace them.

1:28:31Hi there.

1:28:32My question is perhaps for staff.

1:28:35I just wondered if we do slow down the electrification of the fleet.

1:28:40How would that impact some of our environmental goals?

1:28:43I'm thinking because my understanding is that our greatest emissions come from vehicles with our emissions at the city.

1:28:56To you, Councillor Claeson, the electrification of our fleet, you're right, does play a big impact

1:29:02in the reduction of our greenhouse gas goals and does help us reach our race to zero goals as well.

1:29:09So it by slowing it down, it will affect those, those targets.

1:29:16Okay, thank you.

1:29:17Okay, I'm going to give Mayor Guthrie last question on electrification and then we're going to throw it open to other topics.

1:29:25Yeah, thank you.

1:29:25I'm so sorry to do this.

1:29:28Doug, and if you feel like you're on the spot here, it has to be a follow up later.

1:29:32I totally get it.

1:29:33I am following up on what Dan just asked.

1:29:36I heard in the response to Dan, sorry, Councillor Gibson,

1:29:40saying that you would look, you would explore and options.

1:29:44I caught those two words in regards to the charging infrastructure required.

1:29:48I need, I need to hear like a yes or a no to this question.

1:29:52Are we spending millions of dollars on buses?

1:29:55And will we have the charging infrastructure to be able to to do those over the next four years?

1:30:02So Mayor Guthrie, yes.

1:30:04The intent is that we will have chargers on route.

1:30:08Options that we will use to make sure that all the buses are charged as we purchase.

1:30:13Okay, we've got about 15 minutes.

1:30:21I see hands.

1:30:23Um, I'm wondering if those hands are about questions about other items in this category

1:30:29or if it's about electrification.

1:30:31I'm just cautioning when we get to 735, we got to move on to the next category.

1:30:36So if you've got questions about other items in this deferring new operating,

1:30:42sort of now's the time for us to ask that.

1:30:45Councillor Cron, I see your hand.

1:30:48I thought I had put it up during the electrification discussion.

1:30:53The, it isn't just about meeting our climate goals,

1:30:56but I understood from a question I asked during the budget presentation

1:31:00that the reduction in fuel costs is included in our current budget.

1:31:06So if we continue to buy diesel or fossil fuel buses, will our fuel costs go up?

1:31:14Because that was a savings that we were going to have that that actually fed into the business case

1:31:21for the electrification.

1:31:23Uh, to you, Councillor Cron, as we get electric vehicles, we are adjusting our fuel costs as

1:31:32well as our parts and our oil and all that.

1:31:36Yes.

1:31:37That's what I thought.

1:31:38So before we, you know, make any decisions regarding slowing down electrification,

1:31:43we're going to need to get costs on what the impact will be on our fuel budget.

1:31:49Okay.

1:31:50Uh, Councillor Ault, electrification or something different?

1:31:53Electrification.

1:31:54Just want to follow up on that.

1:31:56I was wondering if staff could please bring back a memo on the industry realities facing us with

1:32:04regards to electrification versus non-electrified fleet.

1:32:09Uh, I'm worried that we might actually be sailing into a headwind if we're not careful.

1:32:14So, uh, just to clarify, we're, we're, we're asking clarifying questions here.

1:32:24Um, that gets us to clarity so that that council can make the amendments they need to.

1:32:29So just, I'm conscious of time trying to move us through.

1:32:34Um, so was there a question there, Councillor Ault?

1:32:36Well, I was just going to say if a memo is faster, do it in a memo.

1:32:40That was all.

1:32:41But if the question could be answered right now, I would wondering if staff could please

1:32:45comment on whether addressing the issue of electrification is also addressing the realities

1:32:51of the, uh, the automotive industry as well.

1:32:56Uh, is it changing faster than our capacity to actually afford it?

1:33:00Yeah.

1:33:05Maybe, Councillor Ault, what I could suggest is, um, we can take that one offline and, and frame it on

1:33:10the budget board, um, and then staff have a chance to, to respond to that.

1:33:15Okay.

1:33:16All right.

1:33:17All right.

1:33:17We still got a big category.

1:33:19We've talked about four or five things.

1:33:22Considering that long list of, uh, new, opera, deferring new operating items.

1:33:29Are there other questions for staff about specific items in there?

1:33:34So Councillor Gibson, I see your hand.

1:33:36Um, does anyone else have questions about items in that deferring new operating items?

1:33:45Councillor O'Rourke.

1:33:49Okay.

1:33:49So I got, I got two.

1:33:51We'll try to keep the follow-ups to a minimum.

1:33:54Um, go ahead.

1:33:55Councillor Gibson.

1:33:56Thank you.

1:33:57This may be a question for later.

1:33:59I just wanted to make sure I don't lose my opportunity on operating.

1:34:03The, the CAO and I have, I've had a quick discussion in advance of the meeting about, uh,

1:34:07we're in a multi-year budget.

1:34:09Can, can staff give, can staff be given multi-year direction in terms of, uh, operating,

1:34:15controlling operating capping all, capping growth in our operating budget?

1:34:19Would they be, is this an opportunity now to talk about a motion of council, a direction of council

1:34:24to hold, hold some of these costs through direction?

1:34:28I'm not talking about going line by line.

1:34:30I'm talking about giving staff lots of runway to look at 1%, 2% reductions in operational growth

1:34:36of salaries, benefits, wages, things like that.

1:34:38We're not cutting existing jobs.

1:34:40We're talking about not onboarding new positions.

1:34:43Is this the type of direction staff want?

1:34:46Are they amenable to it?

1:34:48I can use examples of where it's been done in the past, but I think that it's a,

1:34:51I think that it's a good conversation to have.

1:34:53It's, um, we can, we can talk about the three-year window, four-year window now.

1:34:59So, so through you Glen, uh, the councillor.

1:35:03Um, so, yeah, so councillor, council can give us multi-year direction.

1:35:09That's part of the value of a multi-year budget.

1:35:11You get to see those other years that typically in a single year, you just,

1:35:15you're not, you don't always see what's going to happen in three years from now.

1:35:19And, and what new thing is being introduced that needs operating staff.

1:35:24I think, you know, there's a discussion amongst council here on this one.

1:35:29So let me try not to completely avoid it.

1:35:31Because I've said earlier, we want to be part of the conversation with you.

1:35:35We can certainly take things away, you know, for next week.

1:35:39And there might be a discussion on, are you comfortable with everything,

1:35:45what thoughts are just looking at everything?

1:35:47And, or do you want to narrow it down a bit?

1:35:51And then you, you cannot, um, if you don't agree on some of this sort of structure around,

1:35:57well, what would be the things and how would you prioritize?

1:36:01If you don't agree on that, you're likely going to be annoyed, upset,

1:36:05you know, whatever the right objective is next week on the 29th.

1:36:10And, and if you, then at that point we get up to the podium and people's heads,

1:36:14you know, get pounded on for it or whatever may happen.

1:36:18That can't be, well, that's not okay.

1:36:19So we've, we've got to do these things together so that you're not surprised.

1:36:23And then there's a reaction to it.

1:36:25We're not surprised that you're surprised because we thought we talked about it.

1:36:28And I think that's part of why we got here this evening.

1:36:32Where is it that you want to go in terms of reductions as a group?

1:36:36Because if we go away and do the work and there's a bit of work to do on it,

1:36:40I've said we'll do it, but that's an important piece that we bring it back next week.

1:36:44And you, and you can't be in that stage of, well, that's not what we want.

1:36:48Because that's an impossible task for staff and probably honestly,

1:36:50it's an impossible task for you to just say, well, then we'll deal with that next week.

1:36:55So that my answer is yes, of course, multi a year, general direction.

1:36:59Yes. But a bit of a discussion on where and then what would be the,

1:37:04the obligations we might have, you know, you can get into discussions around

1:37:08health and safety, legislative pieces, housing priorities, but it starts to leave things out.

1:37:15And if we don't have the discussion, you might show, we might show up next week and someone says,

1:37:20well, where's your EDI lens?

1:37:24You know, so that's, that's the rub that we're in a little bit tonight.

1:37:27We need a little bit of help and guidance to help and guide you later.

1:37:31So again, it's not avoidance. We just narrow it down, Councillor Gibson,

1:37:35and that might be the place that we'll look for wisdom from Council as they guide us to this.

1:37:40And we'll bring you the details. And that's the important part is the details next week.

1:37:44Yeah, I agree. Now, I'm sorry. This is an important one for me.

1:37:47It's, this is the single biggest opportunity I see for us to reduce the budget.

1:37:51So this is why I want to have a follow up if you don't mind.

1:37:54Staff helped me with this. So I appreciate it. Karen, if she's here, thank you very much.

1:37:5721.1 million is the increase in the salaries, benefits and wages portion of our budget,

1:38:0223 over 24. A portion of that is outside boards. A portion of that is contractual obligations to

1:38:07our unions and to non union management staff. But a full 10.9 million of that is related to,

1:38:13as far as I can see from a breakdown here, is related to expansions and enhancement of services.

1:38:17So 3%, almost 3% increase to our budget is dedicated to enhancements and expansions of service.

1:38:25Some of that is health and safety related. Some of that is paramedics. Some of that is fire.

1:38:29I absolutely no objections. But when it comes to discretionary expansions in our budget

1:38:34of the 10 million that is there, if staff were to say, we are offering, we are, we are willing,

1:38:40council is willing to say 7 million is what is on the table this year. We're going to shave

1:38:44a 1% off our budget. We'd like staff to come back with a prioritized list of what they believe they

1:38:49can do with the 7 million. Is that the type of direction that you'd be willing to take? Because

1:38:54I got a feeling none of us, not 7 of us aren't going to agree on 10 items to take down. But I

1:39:01have to confess that it's a healthy back and forth conversation. You've done that already with the

1:39:05capital budget. You've deferred and reduced projects in the capital budget that we didn't

1:39:10weigh in on. We gave you guys that delegated authority. So York Road is a project that was

1:39:14deferred and reduced. Watson Road downtown, those are projects that have been under the guys of staff

1:39:21been reduced, deferred in scope. That was the direction that you needed from council. That

1:39:27was the direction you took on yourselves. Could we give you direction to come back with of that

1:39:3210 million dollar expansion? Could we say we want you to come back with a 7 million dollar expansion

1:39:37and just you give us the priority or you ask us what our priorities are and make it work that way.

1:39:44And this is just again, this is not cutting jobs. This is not adding jobs. This is slowing down

1:39:51the growth of our operations, not cutting any services. Thank you. So quite honestly to all

1:39:57councilmen at this point, this would be the bucket to do it and I think because your last

1:40:04name is accurate and factual and this would be the place for us to, it makes more sense because

1:40:10you're reducing something before it begins. However, you do need some detail on because,

1:40:15you know, beware of new beginnings. Some of this stuff is has some history to it that's

1:40:21gotten here tonight. So that's part of the discussion. We're certainly on for it if you're

1:40:26on for it, but you've got to have sort of clarity on yes, we want that and staff go away and bring

1:40:34that back to us. But if we bring it back, you know, if you took the 10 point, what the heck is

1:40:41the number 10.6 like 10.9, 10. Yeah. And we drew a line at $7 million. Everything below this line

1:40:48falls below the line. And we'll explain that and it could be we've prioritized it could be

1:40:54there's some partial staggering in some of the hires that question you've had earlier.

1:40:58But again, eyes wide open, all of the folks that answered we've staggered it just means

1:41:03so it's in the year after his budget to and I've worked in places where that's always

1:41:08why can we never get caught up while guys we did this thing in year one and you keep deferring it

1:41:13off. But as long as you're on for that sort of discussion council and you're going to be okay

1:41:18with that, you might say no to it. But if you're going to be okay, it's just don't be annoyed

1:41:22that we put it in front of you. You know, how could staff have done this to us? We're not doing it

1:41:27to you and you're not doing it to us. And that was my comment earlier about it's not personal,

1:41:31but this is the bucket to do that in. And we would need to detail some of the details behind

1:41:37what's on that list rather than to do a line by line review right now with you. I think it's not

1:41:43that warranted and it'd be awful difficult for you. But as there's areas that you would be,

1:41:49we want to make sure we have this lens on it. That's the stuff we need to hear because that lens,

1:41:54if we know it in advance, and it's important to all of you, not just one of you, but all of you,

1:41:59or the majority of you, that's important for us because then that can be help,

1:42:04that will help our focus when we bring it back. You won't be surprised. So short answer is yes,

1:42:09we can. The longer answer is all that other stuff, but we need you in there with us too

1:42:14in terms of what happens on the 29th. So I really appreciate that answer and I want to echo what

1:42:20you've said. I've said this countless times in the last seven or eight years of budget.

1:42:24It's never personal. It's always trying to find a way to help with the affordability piece.

1:42:30So similar question to the outside boards, simply looking at staggering these in,

1:42:34staggering these in over half a year instead of the full year. I understand that kicks it out.

1:42:39I understand that kicks it out a little bit, but that would save, if we just cut this number in

1:42:42half, that would save $5 million right over, we do it over the last six months of 2024,

1:42:47instead of the whole year. The second piece though, and maybe a little bit more palatable for

1:42:52council is there are so many unknowns in this budget that we are projecting and I rightfully

1:42:58saw the downloading of costs, inflation. If those two things change, which I just read today,

1:43:04the inflation appears to be looking like we've, we've raised interest rates enough to really

1:43:08curb spending in this country. That's coming down. If we can, if we can manage through the

1:43:14next little while with provincial announcements, hopefully there is unknowns that could come

1:43:19down in the next year that could help us next year. Again, just throwing it out there palatable,

1:43:23that's the direction I'd like to give staff. I don't know if we need direction. I'm just a

1:43:27warning that that's the direction I want to give. That's all. Thank you.

1:43:29So Glenn, maybe just to add to it and again, but this is a good part of the conversation.

1:43:38And yes, it's intentions. We're not directions tonight, but we need some nod enough heads tonight

1:43:43what we're going to go on way and work on. So I would just say without a great deal of knowledge

1:43:50from my perspective, there is a great deal of knowledge in the room. Not all of this is completely

1:43:55taxed. There is some rates and other pieces to this as well. So I just, there's a cautionary tale

1:44:00here and that's why the details won't be important. You can stagger and councillor Gibson, you've got

1:44:05to, well look, and then that's five million right away. So we'll go away. It might not be that right

1:44:10away. Yes, but it gives us a sense of what would it look like and then probably what it looks like

1:44:16because where you started with this, it's multi year. So the stagger isn't one year. And I suspect

1:44:22the boards, I would hope the boards are in that same place. Stagger's are going, then you get to

1:44:27stagger all of it and you've begun to stagger in over the four years. So, you know, there's,

1:44:32you see the impacts for the outer years. If you move half of it now to, you got to pay for

1:44:38half of it this year and half of it next year, you then have got to do something in that following

1:44:43year. So we would have to put some of that detail in too so that you as council know what you voted

1:44:49on. And so when you get to this point next year, oh yeah, we voted on it. So again, it just holds

1:44:54all of us accountable and I just say that out loud. I know you know that. But some of this comes in,

1:45:00there's offsets in revenue and there's offsets in other pieces. So I just, it's caution, it's not a

1:45:05direct 10 million, but there's certainly stagger and can get you to places. So that would be something

1:45:12staff could take away if you're all game for it. I see two other questions. We've budgeted about

1:45:23another two or three minutes for this category. It's okay. Councillor Roark and Councillor Downer.

1:45:32Thanks, Glenn. Just a high level question by bucket, right? So I'm going through, I'm looking,

1:45:36what are some of the big buckets of new capital and operating? So I just want to look at the

1:45:44trails, sidewalks and active transportation category because we're trying to do a lot of

1:45:49things at the same time. So that is 126.2 million over the full 10 year capital period.

1:45:57I'm just wondering, did we look at any phasing of the trails and active transportation network?

1:46:05There's a full 29 million in 2024, which I know is for the bike lanes on college,

1:46:11but that's capital. But then on the operating side, there is for that same category, $631,000

1:46:20increase over again, the 10 year period. So have we looked at additional phasing in

1:46:27of those areas, right? We keep saying the master plans are the plan and then the budget is the pace?

1:46:34Have we looked at slowing that pace down? So we have staff coming down. Maybe staff,

1:46:41if you wouldn't mind, just introduce yourself when you get to the mic for those on screen that maybe

1:46:45don't see as well. Name and role and then jump in. Yeah. Thanks, Gene. Gene Matthews,

1:46:51General Manager of Parks. Yes, we have looked at phasing that in. We can continue to do that,

1:46:56though, should Councillor Direct, Councillor Roark. Thanks. Councillor Downer, I have you

1:47:05as my last comment or question, maybe Councillor Billings as well.

1:47:11So I was sort of thinking on the same lines as Councillor Gibson, but and I was going to ask about

1:47:16some specific new operating, but I wonder if we can even hold those questions. There's no point in

1:47:22getting that if we can get that information that Scott has talked about around the new ones,

1:47:30how can that be made out, put out longer over the next four years and the phasing in,

1:47:38maybe that's the time we don't need to go into that discussion tonight for individual lines.

1:47:43Because like you said, some of these are going to be covered by fees, but that information is not

1:47:48in front of us. So there's no, I could say, oh, I've got an intention to, to, you know,

1:47:55to remove this one or put it off, but I don't know here whether that's fees or,

1:48:00or what that impact is. But if we had the information, Councillor Gibson is talking about,

1:48:05that sort of a more general sense of rolling that out slower, those new enhancements that,

1:48:11that might be. So I'm just sort of nodding my head to that information.

1:48:17I think rather than going into more specific questions along that line.

1:48:21You've seen head nodding here, I'm seeing head nodding here, a lot of head nodding.

1:48:27Councillor Billings and then Councillor Mark. I know I've asked this before at Council. I just

1:48:33want to ask it again with respect to the grant money that we may be receiving for growth. And so

1:48:40we have in the operating the new hires under the housing strategy. First question is when will we

1:48:46find out what we can use that money for? Because other municipalities have received dollars and so

1:48:52I'm sure they have the fine print as to what you can spend it on. Because what I'm looking to do is

1:48:57for the new hires, if we can use some of the grant money for new hires, then could we not

1:49:03put the housing strategy new hires in at zero dollars into the operating budget

1:49:13instead of this full amount, which is quite a bit.

1:49:16We might need some clarity on your question, Councillor Billings, if you wouldn't mind.

1:49:22Well, I think Tara understands. Okay.

1:49:30So at this point we don't have all the details of the building. I can't even recall the exact name

1:49:38of the grant. It's over over. It's not the half, not that one, but the other one that's based on

1:49:44housing starts. So I think we should be able to take that away. I think it just in the moment here

1:49:48we can't respond, but building, housing faster, that grant. Well, anyways, we'll take it away.

1:49:57Do you think we'll have that? Do you think we'll have that knowledge like before

1:50:03we move amendments next week? I'm getting information up here. I don't know if Jody's back there, but

1:50:11we don't anticipate that we'll have that level of detail by next week. Okay.

1:50:21Councillor Rourke, I'm going to give you the last question on this category.

1:50:25Thanks. I just want to piggyback on Councillor Downer's question, because I'd be pretty happy

1:50:29to see the rates side come down as well. So to me, I'm a bit agnostic around whether it's

1:50:36tax or rate because it's the same taxpayer who's going to pay it on their water bill or

1:50:42other utilities. So I just want to add that I'm happy to see it come down on the rate side as well.

1:50:52So again, to Glen, that's the kind of detail that we'll put in and likely including the

1:50:59piece that Councillor Billings raised too. If any of these have funding from other places attached,

1:51:04you have to know where or was it, you know, we were hoping that we would get funding. So it might

1:51:09already be there in that case, Councillor Billings, but if it's not, we'll identify that. And then

1:51:14those are one of the risk moments that you take with each other. Are we willing to put that into

1:51:18the risk category of it may come, but equally it may not come. And that, you know, you'll see where

1:51:25you are on that stuff. So let us put some detail to it. Yeah, I just raised it that it's not a

1:51:30clear reduction on the 9.9, but you're right, it could be a reduction on the rate percentage as well.

1:51:36So that, as long as we have clarity there or it could be something very specifically, you know,

1:51:41we've got some rules around what flows out of the building fund. So that's an issue too. So we'll

1:51:48clarify all that so you know exactly where it is to be reduced. You're not surprised. And again,

1:51:54I always come back to then we're not surprised that you're surprised. Okay, Mayor. So this is

1:52:04about possible reductions on this side of the ledger. So I think, Tara, I'm just wondering,

1:52:09like, and we don't have to get into numbers tonight, but usually around this time of year,

1:52:13you're starting to solidify what a potential, if any, positive variance or surplus is. And

1:52:24I'm just wondering if this can be a takeaway for sure. But I'm just wondering if you could consider

1:52:30that and how, if you could look at it through your lens of risk, if you have an idea of the type

1:52:37of numbers that we might be looking at for a year and surplus, is there a portion of that that you

1:52:44would feel comfortable recommending to council that we could use? But at the same time, we also know

1:52:53that, well, I'm just giving my opinion that you don't want to also just mask something in the

1:53:00one year just by using a surplus where that hits the impact in the next year. So is there,

1:53:07if we were to have a surplus with a certain amount of money, could you try to see if you could

1:53:12apply, tell us where we should apply it to where then the impact into 2025 isn't as great or zero?

1:53:20Can that be just a takeaway as I'm interested in that? Yeah, we'll take that away. Yeah. Thanks.

1:53:26Okay. Back at us through the first very large bucket.

1:53:33Mayor, I had scheduled a break, a five minute break, if that's amenable to you.

1:53:41I'm seeing a head nod a little bit. So yeah, I think that's healthy. Let's take a five minute

1:53:48break. It's right now 741. Let's come back at, well, it's now 742. So let's go to 747-ish.

1:53:58Not too heavy on the ish. See you in a bit.

2:00:13Okay, this is your 30 second warning 10 second warning

2:01:15Okay, I'm gonna call the meeting back to order everybody and I'm gonna turn it back over to Glenn

2:01:33But just a little bit of a heads up from me

2:01:37Gwen and I are looking at the rest of our

2:01:42Kind of flow here. We need to and this is including me

2:01:48be careful of our preambles and you know

2:01:52Commenting please please please for the fairness of all of us here. Let's keep it moving and

2:02:01Glenn is going to make sure that he applies that keep it moving standard to all of us. So thank you

2:02:09so our next category is

2:02:12service enhancements and 100 RE capital projects so

2:02:16Terabaker you had something you wanted to share first and then we'll see what questions folks have

2:02:23Sure. Thanks Glenn. So I just really wanted to draw your attention to attachment three

2:02:28Table one in attachment three and then table three in that chart are the transfers to capital

2:02:35so those are in the operating budget and

2:02:38That is what we used to fund the capital projects. And so in table

2:02:43Two and then four on that same sheet

2:02:47Those are not the total project costs

2:02:49But those are the costs that are being funded from that project with this specific money

2:02:55So just be I just wanted to set that up as if so for example

2:03:00The total transfer to capital for service enhancement funding is eight million dollars in 2024

2:03:07That's not the increase. That's the entirety of the transfer

2:03:10That's that's going to capital funding

2:03:13For service enhancement, and then you get into table two the very first project there. I'll just I'll just

2:03:19Is active transportation network?

2:03:22cycling masterplan

2:03:2461,000 of the service enhancement money is is going towards that project

2:03:29There's more there's likely additional costs in that project

2:03:33But we just I just wanted to set the stage for what these these tables mean. So

2:03:37if you reduce the funding to

2:03:41To capital so you reduce that service enhancement transfer then we're really looking you'd have to be looking to cut then

2:03:48projects because we really haven't left any

2:03:52excess funding in the in the capital right now, so you cut the transfer we need to cut the the projects

2:03:58So I just wanted to set the stage with that in terms of questions

2:04:03Perfect, so it sounds like we're really focused on if we're focused on clarifying questions

2:04:08We're focused on removing or getting clarity on items in table two and table four

2:04:14Okay, so I'm gonna start by asking if anyone's got questions about items in

2:04:20Table two and you might need a minute just to could I just ask a clarity question? Yeah, I'm so sorry

2:04:31Like is that is that is that this stuff like the all these charts here?

2:04:38So it's it's attachment three

2:04:41from the council memo last week

2:04:45It's titled service enhancements and 100 re reserve funds. Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, thanks Linda. Okay. I'm good. Thank you very much

2:04:52So yeah, we're honing in on table two are there questions about table anything in table two actually, I'm sorry

2:04:58Is there a way even I mean this will help people even watching this video

2:05:02Is there a way to put this up on the screen and then you can go like this is what we're looking at and then everyone knows what we're

2:05:07Looking at and the mayor can get help. Thank you

2:05:10Yeah, we can it's it's several pages. So

2:05:15Yep, we can point at it so maybe anything on on the bottom of page one there

2:05:23That we've got questions about counselor or work

2:05:25Thanks, I have a question about the technical services manager

2:05:29So when I click through in the power BI and I look at what the description is

2:05:33We're trying to maintain a best practice by having a staff to supervisor ratio and I'm wondering

2:05:40whether that is

2:05:42required and whether it's really required in

2:05:452024 I'm gonna go to DCL Holmes to start us off

2:05:53This first technical services manager, I've got some other staff coming down

2:05:58Reminder staff just if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself and then

2:06:06So when you go into power BI and you click through to what the description for the role that could temp call plus general manager

2:06:12environmental services

2:06:15Of one to our was an division manager with sort of services

2:06:20So a little bit of background about the position. It's really to strategically realign

2:06:33The current alignment of wastewater

2:06:38Sorry, oh, okay. Sorry, is that better?

2:06:43Okay

2:06:45to realign the

2:06:47The the roles that I will we have at wastewater with an expanding

2:06:52particular on the sanitary side of things and

2:06:55Was a heavy project

2:06:57Capital project moving forward then this is to support that as well

2:07:02So the question we have on all of these, right?

2:07:09Is is do you do you really need it? Can you restructure through attrition? Like is there another approach?

2:07:18Is there another approach that's been considered

2:07:21Right because we see what the risk profile is when we click through right?

2:07:25This seems like the risk is well, we wouldn't be meeting our optimal

2:07:29Supervisor to staff ratio, which I get

2:07:33Fair enough so so the

2:07:36Yeah, and we don't put this forward lightly and there's an investment and we understand that

2:07:42Can we proceed without it?

2:07:45I mean we will do the best we can without it. I mean, that's what we've been doing for quite some time

2:07:51It's just I guess an honest reflection of what we feel we could use

2:07:56And we would appreciate the support to get it if it doesn't I will do as we ever have done and get the work done somehow

2:08:05So I just want to clarify. I think we might be in a different spot. So we're looking at attachment three. I

2:08:13Think that might have been a role that was in attachment one. No, okay

2:08:19Clerks would you mind bringing attachment three back up just so that everyone's looking off that table table two

2:08:26Yeah

2:08:28Councillor Gibson you had a question

2:08:31Sorry, I think the question might have been specific to attachment three table four

2:08:36Okay, 100% are you initiatives

2:08:39That's the one looking at table two growth page

2:08:4315 of 35 in the consolidated package

2:08:46the request number is a

2:08:503 3 technical services manager, so I'm looking I was told we could look at table two and table four

2:08:58Okay, I

2:09:00Have put my glasses back on for that. Okay

2:09:05Maybe while councillor Rourke will let you think about that for saying did you have a question cancer Gibson? It is a question

2:09:13It's not a it's it's more. It's a philosophical one, but it has budget implications

2:09:17Can can staff start thinking about whether or not 100% renewable is a better objective than

2:09:26low to zero emissions and

2:09:28it maybe start having that conversation and

2:09:31and maybe maybe we can talk about it as as

2:09:35A council in the future, but also if there's budget implications this year

2:09:38I say that because the province and the Fed and the and the

2:09:43federal government

2:09:45It's low to zero emissions because there's other technologies that are now being included in in that space, right?

2:09:51So there's some would argue that

2:09:54Electrification battery power is not renewable, but it is low to zero emissions on a life cycle perspective

2:09:59Like those are types of conversations that I just I think it's healthy for us to have

2:10:05Because renewable energy was was and still is a very useful piece

2:10:09but it the target the goal is to low to zero emissions and I just I'm not just speaking about the electricity grid. I'm talking about

2:10:17Transportation I'm talking about heating

2:10:20There's there's some emissions associated with geothermal and that but there's low to zero emissions associated with it

2:10:26Is that maybe something healthier to talk about rather than renewable and is 100% renewables perhaps?

2:10:32Is the cost outweighing the benefit or could we talk about low to zero emissions and would that be more achievable I?

2:10:40think

2:10:41DCO Holmes wants to weigh in on that one. So thank you for that council Gibson. So

2:10:47Sorry

2:10:50So as we your direction or your direct counsel's direction to us was for 100 Hari by

2:10:562050 but then we also had the raised to zero goals associated with greenhouse gas emissions that do have

2:11:03Interim goals

2:11:05starting front-ended to 2030 and then also getting to us to

2:11:102050 those two they're not exactly the same as you can appreciate but they all tied into us being a more sustainable city

2:11:18if

2:11:20Based on the budget that we have now you've heard in our budget presentation that we will be struggling to meet our

2:11:26race to zero goals

2:11:29Because there are investments as you have mentioned that have to be made and sometimes those investments

2:11:33We talked a little bit at the budget presentation about return on investment. How do you measure that?

2:11:39Well, sometimes it's not a return on investment in terms of financial sometimes you you pay more, but then you get the

2:11:47benefit of less

2:11:49emissions

2:11:50And that's that's the price of doing that work and sometimes you don't sometimes as the savings associated with

2:11:56Utility cost so it starts to get very complicated

2:11:59but if council wants to review those

2:12:03Energy goals whether it be 100 re or race to zero that would be good for us to know because then we can plan accordingly

2:12:09So right now we're planning our budgets based on the direction that you've given us

2:12:14Very quick follow-up and it's just a comment to take away and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to change the direction of the ship

2:12:19But when we plug into the grid in in Guelph the new recreation center, it's receiving 100% of electricity from the grid

2:12:26Only about I would say 35% of that is considered quote-unquote renewable

2:12:31But 90 90 plus percent of it is zero emissions like low to zero emissions

2:12:35So are we setting the right target? Are we setting the right goal to say we not only are we only 35% renewable for the

2:12:41We now have to supplement or with our own solar energy on site to achieve a goal that if we had just plugged into the grid

2:12:47We were still be 95% emissions free or low emissions, but because we have this renewable energy goal

2:12:53Are we maybe it's a conversation for another day, but I just I think that there's some space here to talk about it. Thank you

2:13:01Councillor Bousetio, you have a question if you wouldn't mind just orienting us to where yeah where you are

2:13:07table two and it's about the

2:13:09Cycling network just a clarification question. I'm not clear if these costs are

2:13:16100% from the reserve fund or is it a combination of these costs our reserve fund plus some kind of grants for

2:13:24This kind of infrastructure if you can help me tease that out

2:13:28So the figures that are on table like in this attachment those are just the reserve fund

2:13:35These are all these all these amounts are funded from that reserve fund and to make that project

2:13:42Project come to life. I assume that there is grant funds as well

2:13:46Or is that the total cost in some of them there would be and so that's when we'd have to depending on your project

2:13:53The pro any project you'd have to go and we can we can help with this

2:13:59We can actually provide maybe like a schedule

2:14:03With all of any projects that have grant revenue if that's helpful as a follow-up, but if you go into the dashboard

2:14:10You find the project code

2:14:12You can see all funding sources. So some of these would have

2:14:17Multiple funding sources not even just grant but what we've given here you here is the snapshot of the just the service enhancement funding

2:14:25Thank you. I'll do that

2:14:31Last call for questions about table two. Okay. I see Councillor Billings, Councillor Chu

2:14:41Table two, okay, this is page four of seven

2:14:45This is

2:14:48This is traffic signal priority implementation 2.4 mil

2:14:54Under capital it's got 4.8 million for this project. So double this amount and

2:15:00I I could be wrong, but I thought it was all tax

2:15:04so

2:15:06So because the project is actually

2:15:094.8 million is this something that we looked at meeting we could defer and then if we did defer

2:15:15It could even be split over the 4.8 million could be split into two years

2:15:21So I wanted more information about this line item

2:15:26We got some staff coming to the podium Councillor Billings

2:15:41Good evening Councillor Billings. It's Terry game in the city engineer

2:15:45So to answer your question that you write the cost or split in terms of the funding sources for the transit or the traffic signal

2:15:51preemption the work itself from an impact perspective is all about

2:15:56Optimizing our signal system so that things like emergency vehicles transit snow plows etc can optimize their operation

2:16:01So it's important from a service level perspective

2:16:04The risk of not completing that work or deferring that work means that that you know will continue to be a need and it will

2:16:10Be expensive to do or more expensive to do in the future in terms of phasing it

2:16:14We can't phase it because it's one total contract

2:16:16So we need to award it with the funding in its totality for the for the year that it's awarded

2:16:21So let me explain the the phasing sometimes when we have a large

2:16:26Ticket like this where it's almost five million dollars. I understand what you just said

2:16:31However, what we do is we put we put that amount over two years

2:16:36So if we deferred the project to say 2025 it would half of it would go in 2025 and the other half in

2:16:432026 in order to pay for the five million

2:16:48Like we've done that before

2:16:51So I'm gonna jump in here so we budget

2:16:56Based on how we're gonna procure because we need to have approved budget in order for us to award the procurement

2:17:03So we will phase it if we're gonna do the procurement in pieces

2:17:07But we have to budget in the year if we're gonna do it in one contract

2:17:12We need the budget in that year

2:17:14And and that's so we can tie it into the peer procurement bylaw and everything flows properly in the background though

2:17:22That's why we use the reserve fund. It's exactly the reason we use the reserve fund so that we can then manage the the cash flow

2:17:30Impacts over multiple years and so so we are cash flowing it

2:17:34And that's based on the transfers only eight million right every year

2:17:39But there's a number of projects in there and we're phasing we're phasing that cash flow

2:17:43So I hope that that helps answer your question

2:17:47A bit counselor chew I had you next

2:17:54Thank You Glenn

2:17:56similar

2:17:57line of thought from my counselor

2:18:00Billings, but I'm just trying to understand like how much of a buffer room or fun funding gap

2:18:06Do we have like say look looking at table two for?

2:18:11Edinburgh Road structure rehabilitation say we didn't in that in

2:18:172024 like how much gap do we have in terms of the actual capital project in its fatality because like essentially what I'm hearing from

2:18:26Tara is

2:18:28We're essentially have having to look at cutting those projects if we're not going to be funding it out of that reserve and also

2:18:35I'm just kind of wondering though how much gap in room do we actually have if you can help me understand that though

2:18:41Do you appreciate it? Just give us one second here counselor chew

2:18:51So so good evening. It's Terry gaming again. So counselor to just in terms of the project itself in the timelines

2:19:00So so when you see codes like BR at the front of our project list those are those bridges and structures

2:19:05That are prioritized through our corporate asset management work

2:19:08And so when we put them in in terms of the timing

2:19:11The funding itself is is complex and so you're seeing the service enhancement piece on that table

2:19:17But there's other funding behind the totality of the project in this and since it's around the rehabilitation of the bridge on

2:19:23Edinburgh over the river and we can't defer that work anymore based on our

2:19:27OSIM inspection reports the priority that is given to it is it's it's

2:19:31Required now and so this is around state of good repair and ensuring that that infrastructure will support the community

2:19:38Okay, and just like quick follow-up

2:19:40I think maybe offline if you can if you'd be willing to share how you

2:19:45Look at the funding and how it's allocated to your asset management

2:19:50I think that'd be appreciated that this is definitely be on our purview and our scope as counsel so

2:19:57Yeah, thank you. Thanks counselor to you

2:20:03Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna move us along to table four anything in table four

2:20:09In attachment three that folks have clarifying questions about

2:20:22counselor Billings

2:20:24Go ahead

2:20:30Okay, so we have the

2:20:32The buses in there for over 2.8 mil

2:20:37But we also have this

2:20:39400,000

2:20:40or the

2:20:42Root review and that's coming from a hundred re

2:20:47in the I call it expansion package budget requests, there's

2:20:53another

2:20:54712,000 in there for a hundred re if

2:21:00We do not support the 712,000 then would we still

2:21:05Have enough then with respect to paying for the electric buses

2:21:11or

2:21:13Or not because I don't know how much is in reserves

2:21:17That's why I'm asking the question because I don't know how much currently we have in reserves

2:21:22right so

2:21:24So I can send you the link we can send out the link after counselor Billings

2:21:28where the reserve fund balances are but it's in the it's on the main budget web page under

2:21:35Capital financing

2:21:38That capital financing tab and it's at the very bottom

2:21:41It's the very last table and you'll be able to see the total reserve balance and it isn't a deficit

2:21:46and

2:21:48If I could ask mr. O'Brien possibly to bring up that that one table

2:21:55If you could it's the reserve fund

2:21:59Slide that we had presented on November 7th

2:22:03I can give you a snapshot of what that reserve fund looks like and so if you do reduce that

2:22:10transfer

2:22:12We would not have enough money to support the electrification

2:22:19Project and the that would be the matching funds for our ICIP grants grant and that body of work

2:22:27Okay, and then that that four hundred thousand can't be shifted

2:22:34by one year

2:22:41So those are the the transit projects that the review that that were already asked about earlier

2:22:47So if there is additional questions about that, I think you we can follow up with you

2:22:54After the meeting or or over the next couple days. Yeah, that works. Okay

2:22:59Councillor Clawson and then I have this over work

2:23:02Let me have a question to take away, but I'm just looking on the last page page four under the project PL

2:23:122076 heritage initiatives and I'm just curious as to what that is

2:23:22Sorry, could you just which page again that you're referencing are you on attachment three? Oh

2:23:29Sorry, did we?

2:23:31No, I skipped ahead my bad. Sorry. I'll hold off on that one. Okay. Thanks. Thanks. Councillor Clawson. Nope, Councillor

2:23:39We're good

2:23:41There Guthrie

2:23:43Thank you, so I'm on table four and

2:23:46Under the bus electrification replacement it says two million eight hundred and fifty six thousand nine hundred and sixty

2:23:53Is that like one bus?

2:23:56Or is that two buses?

2:23:58Ten I just give us a moment for you can you can just give me a number is a one

2:24:09No, you got to come down. Okay

2:24:121.5 to you mayor good

2:24:21Guthrie dug out for your general manager of operations an electric bus costs approximately 1.3 million to 1.5 depending on the

2:24:30additions

2:24:32Okay, so where I'm sorry

2:24:34I just want to clarify so that amount in there is only

2:24:37Part of the cost right so this is just the tax cost that we can get you the entire project and

2:24:42Follow-up and how many buses is in each year, but there's ICIP grant money that that would be matching this

2:24:49So this is this is only the tax hundred re portion

2:24:53So like we believe it's about seven buses a year, but we will get back to you in

2:24:58With the exact number

2:25:00Okay, so my my my exact question then if you can't answer it now get back to us for sure my exact question is

2:25:08Can we within the agreement for the funding from the upper levels of government that has the matching dollars to help us with this?

2:25:16Are we allowed to?

2:25:18Not get by so many so that we save some money on our side and so all I'm saying is like a set of seven

2:25:25Can we get five?

2:25:28And if it's allowed great, let's have a conversation about that with council

2:25:31If it's if it's not because the contractual agreements with the ICIP funding then then so be it

2:25:36But I would like to know if there's a way that we we look at not buying so many of those and we can save some money

2:25:44Noted and we'll take that a bit. Yeah, okay. We've got one table left here

2:25:53Table five projects funded from debt any questions about that item

2:25:59Councillor Rourke

2:26:01Thanks a general question about the operations facility in its entirety and how that's going to come back to council

2:26:10Because it's been broken down into different pieces when we look at the capital budget

2:26:13There's significant allocations for the parks building etc. I understand this one is

2:26:21Transit and fleet because it's under hundred RE but I have a concern about the ongoing capital expenditures for a

2:26:29Number of buildings. So how does that come back to council?

2:26:34to you Councillor Rourke

2:26:37so

2:26:38As you know, we came back to council to talk about

2:26:42What our plan was going to be for what we were calling the op-center at the time so

2:26:47After we've priced that out and given some of the pressures that have been on the budget lately

2:26:52We are taking that back and rethinking it. It will come back to council at some point

2:26:59Probably not for

2:27:01Probably next year sometime because we also have to take into consideration not only

2:27:06What are we not going to build on the op-center that perhaps we were considering before?

2:27:11But what are we going to do about all those other operation buildings that we're going to be vacated and moving in so it's

2:27:17It's a complicated project because there's so many tentacles out throughout the city

2:27:21But we are going to come back to council probably sometime next year

2:27:25Okay final calls for questions

2:27:33In that category

2:27:35Okay, see a nun. We're going to move to

2:27:40The next category slowing down the pace of growth

2:27:44so

2:27:46I'm going to ask

2:27:49Sort of council do we have questions this category of mayor Guthrie?

2:27:53Council Gibson

2:27:56Anyone on screen

2:27:58Questions about slowing down the pace of growth

2:28:02Thank you. Oh, go ahead. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Go ahead

2:28:08So look I read you know, I read everything. I'm starting on page

2:28:13Page 32 of 35 here and I guess I just have one question

2:28:20And I'm just I'm really trying to see if you can

2:28:24Dumb it down for me

2:28:27You already you already deferred

2:28:35$690 million in capital and then there would be some corresponding operating on that

2:28:40And I think I tried to ask this at the presentation time. I just don't know how it's

2:28:46I'm just struggling with trying to figure out the simplest answer for me

2:28:51As an example if you had a ten-year plan and you made it 12 and

2:28:58That's what's presented in the budget

2:29:01What would happen if we made it if the collective we made it 13?

2:29:06Well, what would happen if we made it 14?

2:29:08And I'm just trying to understand the degree of savings

2:29:13By pushing one year by pushing two years

2:29:17and is that a

2:29:21Can you calculate that for me?

2:29:24under the

2:29:27Under that growth section, I guess minus the legislative stuff which would be hard to do but

2:29:34Is it captured anywhere where you can just give me a number like you know what?

2:29:40Okay, I'll do a follow-up question

2:29:45so

2:29:47We have we have thought very hard and this is such a complex question

2:29:53And so I just want to like preface that we have we have talked and we have talked a lot about this as a team

2:30:00the

2:30:03The majority of the capital cost in the budget

2:30:07Related to growth is funded from development charges, right?

2:30:11So so that is not a tax and a rate impact, right?

2:30:15So when we talk about what is the cost of the tax and the rate payers in this budget related to growth

2:30:22it's about

2:30:24the positions that

2:30:26We need to do more

2:30:28And do more faster and then it's about the cost of bill 23 the lost DC revenues and that is coming

2:30:37Related to when the building permits get pulled which we have little control over

2:30:42and so

2:30:44We've thought a lot about like if we slow down the capital will that will that

2:30:51Relate them back to a slowdown on the cost of bill 23 and it's not going to be immediate, right?

2:30:57because the

2:31:00Infrastructure for building permits that are going to get pulled in the next few years is already in the ground

2:31:04It's already ready. We've got a lot of already ready to go land

2:31:09so so in in our opinion my opinion the the ability to actually

2:31:16Reduce costs or have an impact related to growth at this stage is is very minimal in terms of the tax cost

2:31:23So that's where where we are on on this question. Okay, okay?

2:31:28I answered it perfectly because I understand that's why it's perfectly answered

2:31:32Okay, then my last and follow-up question has specifically to do and I hate to say it Terry Rhodes

2:31:39okay, is

2:31:41There like is there a lens that you could look through where you look through the corporate asset management lens and

2:31:49Your and you could be you could be comfortable enough to say

2:31:53And I'm sure you've already done this because the 690 million dollars

2:31:57Which much of it would probably be a lot of it would be in your department already

2:32:01But where you're like, you know these ten roads

2:32:06We could push them out

2:32:08Another year another two years it is there any

2:32:13relook at the roads budget that

2:32:19That you could defer out and then I do have a separate question and it could be a takeaway, but it's related and

2:32:26I'm just gonna

2:32:28This is a little bit my opinion, but are there active transportation and or transit?

2:32:34that could be funded by

2:32:37By not doing roads and if you looked at that trade-off

2:32:45So to you mayor Guthrie

2:32:47The first answer is we did all that work through the optimization of the budget of course and you're right the

2:32:53690 million a big impact of that is infrastructure. It's all connected to our asset management plan

2:32:57We already have a backlog. It's substantial

2:33:00It's in the hundreds of millions and so things are past to and so so the risks are there

2:33:05The impact of deferring is just extending that risk of failure of any given infrastructure any given level of service

2:33:12It's the same answer sort of regardless of project

2:33:15And so we brought the top priorities forward and it's kind of that simple in terms of what we've laid out in terms of

2:33:21Doing more somewhere else by reducing roads

2:33:24All of those projects are funded through a complex sort of set of you know rates and service enhancements and all things

2:33:30You've heard about tonight, so it's not really like for like it's not the same and again the backlog is there

2:33:35So so the longer we take to get to the backlog the more expensive it's gonna be and so the view is how do we how do we?

2:33:41Hit those asset management targets. We know we're not funded sustainably already

2:33:45We got to close the gap and so what you see in front of you is that

2:33:48I think you

2:33:52Thank you. You might as well stay here. Mr. Jim. It's hard. I'm gonna echo

2:33:57Sentiments of my former counsel colleague mark McKinnon here a little bit

2:34:02We introduced a tax levy in 2017 to fund infrastructure

2:34:06Infrastructure renewal specifically we're in year seven of that collection now

2:34:11I

2:34:12Think it's well documented last year that we're we're using some of that money now some of that tax revenue

2:34:18To fund positions in the city to get capital projects finished and now the messages were slowing down capital works

2:34:25Right. We're still building still building new stuff

2:34:27But we're deferring in in reducing the cost of some of the capital asset renewal

2:34:31I'm not as comfortable as that as I'm letting on but

2:34:36It is what it is

2:34:39So while we live with that risk on the capital side

2:34:43You know when we first came into

2:34:46City Hall in 2014 or what I did we were immediately hit with we've been we've been it was a clear as day

2:34:51We've been running capital deficits for decades on our on our assets and we needed to start funding

2:34:57We have reluctantly I'd like to I'd like to be

2:35:00Funded slower than it has been but it's been funded but now we're slowing it down again

2:35:03So I'm for one year. I'm just expressing my concern there

2:35:07But the piece that bothers me about the operational growth is that

2:35:12By any by any metric when you look into the budget, I believe if my math is right our operational budget is

2:35:19growing by about six percent a year

2:35:22So the the term

2:35:24slowing down growth can't be related more to the operations side of our business our

2:35:30Organization operations wages whatever is growing by six percent a year and our city is not growing that fast

2:35:35Our city is probably going to slow down in terms of its growth in the next year

2:35:39So just inherently speaking it sounds sustainable

2:35:42We cannot continue to grow at six percent a year while the city only grows at two three four percent a year

2:35:47We're just out stripping the sustainability of growth. So

2:35:51These are just concerns. I have I've echoed my my my thoughts on the operational growth of the organization earlier tonight

2:35:57but I just think it is imperative on us to keep that in mind that

2:36:01You know capital is taking a bit of a slowdown. I understand why I think we're all

2:36:06Collectively a little uncomfortable with it, but we know it has to happen

2:36:09But on the operation side we do have to we do have to align it with the rate at which our city is growing

2:36:15Comment not a question. Thank you. I was gonna ask is that yeah

2:36:19Question or that's okay. No, thank you. Yeah, Terry

2:36:24So thank you councillor Gibson and maybe just some some additional information and there's I think you're kind of hinting at the capital program

2:36:30Resourcing strategy is part of your commentary there

2:36:32And so there is a response on the budget board that does try to get at some of the information there

2:36:36And while we say 690 million has been adjusted out. We're still increasing the capital budget

2:36:42So year over year so it's not that it's not that slowing down

2:36:44It's just that we've put everything together that was approved for the first time and had that holistic look and then you have

2:36:50To spread that part out. So so all of the things

2:36:53Individually need to happen now, but when you put them as a collective that it just can't be done

2:36:58And so that's that's this that's the slowdown. It's on the back end

2:37:01It's not on the the idea that we're not ramping up. So we have added resources

2:37:04We are putting out more capital to the street

2:37:06There's the economic stimulus components to all of that good stuff in the asset management piece

2:37:10So there is still continued expansion in the capital delivery as opposed to say a true slowdown

2:37:17I accept that answer. Thank you. Mr. Game. It's a good answer

2:37:20I just I'm still relying on that first message that we heard a budget that we're elevating risk on our capital assets

2:37:26We're still comfortable and that was mr. Lee's comment. We're comfortable, but we are elevating some risk

2:37:30That's I'm not going back and forth with you. It's just conversation. Thank you

2:37:34We're gonna keep okay

2:37:38questions

2:37:40Final call for questions about slowing the pace of growth attachment for attachment for yes attachment for okay

2:37:51I'm not seeing any so

2:37:56We're gonna move ahead to the last category

2:38:01Which is around current service levels

2:38:04So you receive some information from staff

2:38:08Just a flag that if if the matter that you have questions about

2:38:12relates to sort of identifiable individuals

2:38:16labor relations

2:38:18staffing any of those things contracts

2:38:20Those items would have to likely move to closed and so clerks can help us navigate that

2:38:26but in that category of

2:38:28current service levels

2:38:30Are there questions?

2:38:32For staff okay

2:38:42Councillor Gibson go ahead

2:38:48I believe this is a closed conversation about service levels. I can name the service

2:38:54And then you can tell me if we have to go in like loose leaf litter loose leaf litter in the fall each year

2:39:00Does that is that a closed conversation or is that something I can ask? We got someone coming down. It might not be

2:39:12Loose leaf pick up

2:39:15Loose leaf litter sorry loose leaf organic collections. How's that?

2:39:19Hi Doug Godfrey general manager of the operations department. So I believe

2:39:27Your question Councillor Gibson is what's the impact of loose leaf?

2:39:32Collection in short, what's the cost to provide the service? So

2:39:36Obviously, we're gonna have to talk about it in close so

2:39:42131,000 is

2:39:44What the city paid for contracted services to assist with the removal and disposal?

2:39:50So we use existing staff existing resources who are roads crew

2:39:55and our sidewalk crew do the work and the cost for

2:40:00disposal

2:40:00in hall which is 130, 131,000.

2:40:04Okay, so just for clarifications,

2:40:05our staff do the work, but we actually pay

2:40:08an outside contractor to take the waste.

2:40:10Yes, we dispose about 4,000 tons

2:40:16of loose leaves each season,

2:40:20and that's hauled away by a private contractor.

2:40:24Okay, last follow-up question.

2:40:26Similar to our grass clipping pickup service reduction,

2:40:30we don't longer take grass clippings.

2:40:32We tell people to mold them into their lawns.

2:40:34Is there options for residents to do the same

2:40:36with loose leaf or is it a service that is,

2:40:39isn't an essential service to get that litter,

2:40:42to get those leaves out of the neighborhoods,

2:40:43or could residents mold them into their lawns

2:40:46like they do grass?

2:40:47So we do encourage that.

2:40:49We do encourage residents to mulch their leaves

2:40:51and leave it on the grass,

2:40:52or if it's too much to either bag it

2:40:54or to push it to the curb and we will collect it.

2:40:58The amount of loose leaves that we collect through that

2:41:00is about 16 times what salt waste collects bagged.

2:41:04So there would be an impact if we were to remove the one

2:41:07and put it onto salt waste.

2:41:11Can you help me understand that a little bit, sir?

2:41:1316 times.

2:41:15So Nectar's here, he can answer some questions,

2:41:18but approximately the amount of leaves

2:41:20that operations collect through the loose leaf programs

2:41:23about 16 times in the same time

2:41:26that salt waste staff pick up bagged.

2:41:29So the impact of moving one service

2:41:33from collection by operations to salt waste

2:41:36in the bagged process would be an impact.

2:41:38So the other option would be to mulch it

2:41:41and leave it on the lawns.

2:41:44So there is an option to not take the leaves at all.

2:41:46If residents drove the leaves themselves

2:41:48to the solid waste service, we would accept that.

2:41:52So I'll let Nectar answer,

2:41:53but I believe that there would be an impact as well.

2:41:57So the residents would either have to bag the leaves

2:42:02and bring them into the solid waste facility.

2:42:05The impact is that we would have increased traffic

2:42:08because that's 16 times that Ducs team would pick up

2:42:11would now be brought into the facility.

2:42:13So there would be a cost

2:42:15and the cost would be whether it's staff over time,

2:42:17there's a cost to it.

2:42:19The other option would be to contract out the service

2:42:22and that would probably cost more

2:42:24than what the savings would be currently.

2:42:29The risks with that, so residents would still either bag it,

2:42:34they could mulch it.

2:42:36The other thing that could happen is residents

2:42:37could take that out to the streets

2:42:40and there's a risk to that as well if it's not collected.

2:42:43So collecting it would cost more.

2:42:46The risk of putting it out to the streets,

2:42:47the storm drains would be clogged.

2:42:49It could cause overland flooding.

2:42:51It could cause property damage, private, public property.

2:42:54So from a cost savings perspective,

2:42:57it would cost more to bring it onto solid waste

2:43:00or to contract it out.

2:43:02Okay, follow up.

2:43:03And again, I'm not on either side of the fence here.

2:43:05It is a follow up though.

2:43:07We don't accept grass at the solid waste facility anymore.

2:43:10So what if we just said we're not accepting leaf litter?

2:43:14That would be your prerogative as council.

2:43:17Okay, thank you.

2:43:21Councillor Ault, I see your hand.

2:43:25Thank you, just gonna follow up on that.

2:43:27I hadn't thought about it,

2:43:29but I was wondering if we could hear from

2:43:32perhaps Mr. Gaman, I believe,

2:43:34because I'm wondering what the impact of leaves

2:43:36on the street is

2:43:37and what would be the cost associated with that,

2:43:40especially as it has an impact upon snow removal

2:43:44and street clearance.

2:43:49I threw you to you, councillor Ault.

2:43:51Obviously, if light leaves are left along the curb

2:43:56and the bike lane, there's obviously impacts to that.

2:43:59Bylaw staff routinely receive calls about leaves

2:44:03being left in the curb that we need to follow up on

2:44:06with respect to winter control.

2:44:08Obviously, it does make it a little bit more difficult.

2:44:11That's why we encourage residents to write their leaves

2:44:13to the curb and not actually put them on the road.

2:44:17Now you said the word a little more difficult.

2:44:21How much more difficult?

2:44:23Is there a cost that can be put to that?

2:44:29To you, councillor Ault, that's something we can take away.

2:44:31Obviously, a snow plow is going to push leaves

2:44:33just as much as it will push snow.

2:44:36Something we can take it away.

2:44:37Thank you.

2:44:40Other questions related to service levels?

2:44:47Councillor Aurogg.

2:44:49Thanks, Glen.

2:44:51So it's not a specific line item,

2:44:52but I have a question I've asked it before

2:44:54around the speed at which we replace

2:44:58play structures in parks.

2:45:00And is there any benefit to,

2:45:02instead of doing five, we do four per year?

2:45:05Because they are being replaced at quite a rapid rate.

2:45:08I understand they have inspections, et cetera.

2:45:10But there are communities that have parks

2:45:12that are quite a bit older than the ones that we have.

2:45:15And so is there any value in slowing down that pace?

2:45:21So question about rate of park replacement.

2:45:24Replacement, yeah.

2:45:25Jean Matthews, general manager of parks.

2:45:28So about four playgrounds per year we replace.

2:45:31And our current replacement cycle is 18 to 20 years.

2:45:34So I think what we see in the community is a lot of volume,

2:45:38not necessarily a quick replacement, right?

2:45:39So it's over 100 playgrounds that our staff inspect,

2:45:42and therefore 100 playgrounds

2:45:45that are in our replacement program.

2:45:47So that 18 to 20 year cycle is our standard.

2:45:51Obviously there are playgrounds

2:45:52that deteriorate quicker because of use

2:45:55and our ongoing inspection will inform that.

2:45:58And there are some playgrounds

2:45:59that can have the left extended.

2:46:01And through that process,

2:46:02we will extend those when it's called for.

2:46:04So right now we're at four.

2:46:07Risk of reducing that number

2:46:09would obviously bring into asset management concerns

2:46:13with those structures,

2:46:14a level of risk at play with those structures as well.

2:46:18So is it a guideline that you do for a year regardless?

2:46:23Or do we take a look and say,

2:46:25you know, these are still pretty good.

2:46:27And so you move on.

2:46:29Or I'm just trying to think there are still

2:46:33in the city of Toronto playgrounds from the 70s.

2:46:37Not that I advocate those, but they were a lot of fun.

2:46:43They launched at the end of this slide.

2:46:46But I mean, those are still functioning

2:46:48in a lot of communities in this province.

2:46:52So are we replacing them at a rate

2:46:55that is too fast at 18 years?

2:47:00I don't think we are.

2:47:01So CSA dictates the inspections that we perform

2:47:05on those assets.

2:47:07And those inspections are seeing some component failure,

2:47:11some component wear and tear in the features.

2:47:13So we are seeing a lot of ongoing maintenance required,

2:47:17especially with the aging units.

2:47:21It's a rolled up budget line.

2:47:22So there will be years when in the past we have,

2:47:25if two are called for, we'll do two.

2:47:27And we'll hold off on the others.

2:47:29So again, we do take a lens to make sure

2:47:33that that 18 to 20 years cycle is there.

2:47:36Though from year to year, we will make changes

2:47:39in that forecast and reprioritize the work

2:47:42that we would need to do.

2:47:43If we decrease that number from four to three,

2:47:46we are going to see that replacement cycle go from 18

2:47:48to 20 years to 20 to 22.

2:47:51And then we are going to see increased wear and tear.

2:47:53There's going to be some disappointment

2:47:55in the community about that as we can expect.

2:47:58So there will be some challenges

2:47:59that we wouldn't experience there.

2:48:01Okay, thanks.

2:48:04Councillor Gibson, and I believe you're my last hand.

2:48:07Yeah, real quick on the exact same conversation.

2:48:09I'm assuming inspections go into your asset renewal framework

2:48:12as well, correct, Mr. Matthews?

2:48:14Correct.

2:48:15So if you come on, if you look at an asset

2:48:16and it looks in great shape,

2:48:18you'll collect to replace it that year,

2:48:19but the replacement of that structure

2:48:22may not happen for a few more years.

2:48:23Do you, does your department have a sort of,

2:48:28I don't want to say there's a reserve,

2:48:29but do you have a capital reserve that you can lean on?

2:48:32If you come into a year, it's like,

2:48:33oh boy, we've got six or seven we've got to do this year

2:48:35because the inspections tell us

2:48:37whereas years past they were only one or two to do.

2:48:39Are you able to carry over a year to year

2:48:41that surplus or deficit if you have one?

2:48:43Probably, Tara, best give us some content there.

2:48:45Okay.

2:48:47We don't have to vision or departmental reserves.

2:48:51We do that one infrastructure renewal reserve fund.

2:48:54And so that all of that IR money goes to that

2:48:59and then each department has their proportionate share

2:49:04of that based on the value of the asset

2:49:07that each department kind of has ownership over.

2:49:11So that's how we allocate the money to each area.

2:49:16And again, for that specific budget line,

2:49:18it's a rolled up line.

2:49:19So as we provide that information to council,

2:49:21it will look at our forecasts, right?

2:49:22And our operational team will gather with our park planning team

2:49:25to say, hey, here are the assets that are failing,

2:49:28that are in trouble,

2:49:28that are beyond that reasonable life expectancy.

2:49:31Here are some ones that can be delayed

2:49:34and that informs that specific rolled up budget line

2:49:36for playground replacement.

2:49:38That's great. Thank you.

2:49:44Councillor Chu.

2:49:48Mr. Matthews, I don't want to put you on the spot here,

2:49:52but I'm just very curious.

2:49:53So there are five new playgrounds

2:49:55that were completed this year.

2:49:58One of them was Howard and Park.

2:50:00Like this is a very specific example,

2:50:01but I've heard from constituents

2:50:03that the former playground that was there,

2:50:07you know, it was still in relatively good condition.

2:50:09And just on the same line of thinking with, you know,

2:50:13extensions and replacements,

2:50:15like what was maybe like in the nuance perspective,

2:50:20the reason why that playground was chosen for,

2:50:24you know, to be renewed.

2:50:26I'm just very curious.

2:50:28Just so I have an example in my head

2:50:29that I can maybe convey to people.

2:50:33So in the moment, that's a takeaway.

2:50:34I can say that our parks infrastructure staff

2:50:37take the topic seriously and very much see the value,

2:50:41the safety, the asset management components

2:50:44of those conversations.

2:50:45So I don't know in the moment, I can get back to that,

2:50:48but we can have confidence and trust

2:50:50in our park operation staff who lead those inspections,

2:50:54but there have been good decisions, good fact

2:50:57behind that recommendation for replacement.

2:50:59Yeah, I'm just trying to understand,

2:51:01like from a framework perspective,

2:51:02like what kind of goes into, you know,

2:51:05the judgment call and discernment.

2:51:07So I appreciate that.

2:51:08Thank you.

2:51:09I will get you some follow-up counsel at you.

2:51:14Last call, questions about service levels.

2:51:20I'm not seeing any.

2:51:21So that's the sort of formal facilitated part of the night.

2:51:26In a minute, I'll turn it back over to the mayor.

2:51:28Just a reminder, you have budget buddies,

2:51:30the budget board, you have all those access

2:51:32to all those tools.

2:51:33So if you've got questions that crop up the minute

2:51:36you work your way home tonight,

2:51:38a great place to ask those questions.

2:51:39So thanks everyone.

2:51:42Go ahead, thank you.

2:51:44Everything that the CIO used to describe you

2:51:47at the beginning was accurate.

2:51:50So well done.

2:51:52Let's, oh, the fun part, I just remembered, intentions.

2:52:01Pardon?

2:52:15Okay, so I'm gonna go to intentions

2:52:18or does anyone have to do something else?

2:52:23Okay, Councillor Gowler.

2:52:26I wonder if we could have a couple

2:52:27of just general budget questions

2:52:29to inform our intentions, if that's possible.

2:52:35So you're asking questions

2:52:38that you haven't yet asked on the budget board?

2:52:41Yes, your worship.

2:52:43All right, let's try to keep this moving.

2:52:45Go ahead.

2:52:46Thank you, your worship.

2:52:47Through you to staff.

2:52:48This one is with regards to the transfer

2:52:50to the Gulf General Hospital.

2:52:52We have one outstanding payment of 750,000,

2:52:57but I haven't seen the work on a merge start.

2:53:00So I was just wondering, do they need the money this year

2:53:03or could they get that last 750 the following year?

2:53:08Just in terms of facing this out,

2:53:10I don't wanna say my intention is to the furthest a year

2:53:13and then learn that actually they're going to start

2:53:16construction in the spring and then need that money.

2:53:27Through you, Mr. Mayor, that might have to come back.

2:53:30I don't know how Mr. Walton would answer that

2:53:33from the hospital and I certainly don't wanna answer

2:53:36for him, cause I'll be wrong.

2:53:38So we can answer that.

2:53:40We'll put that on the budget board

2:53:41and we'll answer it that way.

2:53:42Councillor Gowler.

2:53:43Thank you.

2:53:44Thank you, your worship.

2:53:47Okay.

2:53:48All right, I'll start with intentions.

2:53:50This is the fun part, right?

2:53:51Okay, no one in the room is smiling.

2:53:54Okay, so how about I start with subtractions,

2:54:03reductions, let's call it reductions.

2:54:07And I'll, again, just try to be as specific as you can

2:54:12so that our staff have an idea

2:54:14of what they are to look into.

2:54:16Of course, you will have to then work with staff

2:54:20between now and Monday at 4 p.m. is your cutoff

2:54:25so that they can understand exactly

2:54:27what you're trying to propose,

2:54:29whether reductions or additions.

2:54:31And it gives time to our clerk's department

2:54:33to help with their proper wording with staff

2:54:36because it all has to be in the queue

2:54:38to go up on the screens for decision day.

2:54:40Okay, so Councillor Gowler,

2:54:43and I can come back to you if you have both additions

2:54:48and reductions, but right now,

2:54:50let's just stick to reductions, okay?

2:54:53Councillor Gowler.

2:54:54Thank you, your worship.

2:54:55I do have a couple of additions, but with reductions,

2:54:58and I am meeting with my budget buddy to formalize this,

2:55:02roughly, I would be looking to reduce the budget location

2:55:06for the Gouff by centenary celebration.

2:55:08It's currently set at 900, some at 1,000.

2:55:12I would be looking at it somewhere around the 200,

2:55:15250,000 mark for that celebration.

2:55:20I have asked a question about the hospital

2:55:21that might be a delay of a year,

2:55:25and then I would also be looking for wording

2:55:29around an efficiency target

2:55:32that we can start implementing for operations budget.

2:55:35Those are my three, your worship.

2:55:39What am I on right now? Reductions, okay?

2:55:41Councillor Gibson, then I'll come over to this side,

2:55:44then I'll go to the screen.

2:55:45Yeah, thank you, your Mr. Mayor.

2:55:46So I hinted at it, I asked all the outside boards.

2:55:48I'll be looking to fund other two things,

2:55:52either half of the library's budget request for 2023, 24,

2:55:56or phasing in 50% of their hiring.

2:56:01However the money works, I'd like to reduce it by 50%

2:56:04so that they can begin hiring in phases.

2:56:07I believe the police budget spoke to hiring in phases as well.

2:56:11So I'd like to reduce the library ask, I believe 50%,

2:56:15by asking them to hire their staff in phases.

2:56:19Secondly, I'll be working with staff

2:56:21on the exact same thing with our own budget.

2:56:24I think there's 10 million, $10.9 million year mark

2:56:27for expansions and enhancements.

2:56:29I'll be working with staff either to decrease that

2:56:34in terms of emotion or looking to phase that in

2:56:37over the full year, six months.

2:56:41And then lastly, in order to reduce it

2:56:43in a long-term trend, I don't know if I'm gonna use

2:56:47the word efficiency target or if I'm gonna use the word

2:56:50goals or direction to staff, but on the operations side,

2:56:53over the multi years of the budget,

2:56:55I'm looking for direction to staff

2:56:57to reduce that operational growth over the four years.

2:57:01I don't know what that number is,

2:57:02I'm gonna work with staff on the language.

2:57:05All right, Councillor Boussatile, nothing.

2:57:08Councillor Downer has something that's more of a,

2:57:11yeah, it kind of fits a little bit.

2:57:14I don't think it's a reduction.

2:57:15I'm just gonna say the car we had,

2:57:18the delegation talking about the Gulf to Godridge trail.

2:57:25And I've had some conversations of turning that

2:57:28into a community-led and city-supported project.

2:57:32And I've had some conversations with Jean Matthews

2:57:35and John Fisher, and I'll be bringing forward

2:57:39a motion regarding that.

2:57:41Whether that takes the 75,000 out or not

2:57:44is just a bit further discussion with staff,

2:57:46but I will be bringing forward a motion

2:57:49to initiate those discussions.

2:57:52Okay, hey, how about Councillor Rourke?

2:57:54Thanks, Mayor Guthrie.

2:57:56So I will have an intention to eliminate

2:57:59or significantly re-scope the digital signs for transit.

2:58:04I wanna have conversations about how we smooth out

2:58:08some of the trans, inactive transportation costs.

2:58:11And I wanna have a conversation about

2:58:13what is the impact of reducing the transfer

2:58:15to the Affordable Housing Reserve?

2:58:17Because I wanna make sure we have something in it

2:58:19so a proponent could come and ask for seed funding

2:58:21that unlocks other capital.

2:58:24And that if there were an emergency,

2:58:26we could fund it through the tax operating contingency.

2:58:30But I wanna have that conversation

2:58:32about whether that transfer has to go there.

2:58:35So those are my intentions.

2:58:37And I might add, I wanna look at

2:58:41funding the physician recruitment

2:58:43that was requested that night.

2:58:46I think it's an economic development imperative.

2:58:47I think it's a whole of community imperative.

2:58:49And I will also have a motion around,

2:58:53we're gonna work on the language,

2:58:54but requiring on an ongoing basis,

2:58:57the implementation of a zero-based budgeting approach

2:58:59on a rotating basis by their line of business

2:59:01or department.

2:59:02So staff will help me put that together.

2:59:05Those are my intentions.

2:59:06Great, anyone on the screen with potential reductions,

2:59:10they'd like to have an intention of tonight?

2:59:14Nope, okay, Councillor Billings.

2:59:17Well, I'm just still gonna work with staff

2:59:19on the whole housing strategy, new hires initiative

2:59:22and the traffic signal priority implementation.

2:59:28Because I do think that there's room there for a reduction.

2:59:33And there is also in the budget requests,

2:59:36I still say there's a couple of positions in there,

2:59:41that I'd like to see eliminated.

2:59:43And definitely the mayor and council addition to the training.

2:59:48I don't think that's needed for 2024.

2:59:53Okay, thank you.

2:59:55And anything else on reductions before,

2:59:58okay, Councillor Cron.

3:00:01I will be exploring the potential of deferring

3:00:05the Emmett-Roll Bridge out of capital

3:00:08beyond the 10-year capital plan.

3:00:11Still looking at the implications of that.

3:00:15Okay, thank you.

3:00:18Okay, I will move.

3:00:20Oh, I guess I should just say what mine is.

3:00:24My intention is to move the entire budget 10 years.

3:00:28Down the road.

3:00:32I already, some of it's been captured

3:00:34by my colleagues already.

3:00:35So I'll just say ditto to that,

3:00:37except for I already kind of mentioned it

3:00:38when I asked to Tara about a potential use

3:00:41of the year-end surplus.

3:00:42If there's some recommendations that come from our staff,

3:00:46if they feel there's little risk to that,

3:00:48but to use that to soften and reduce

3:00:51what 2024 impact might be.

3:00:54Sorry, Councillor Billings, before I go to,

3:00:56I'm sorry, additions, I saw your hand go back up.

3:00:59Yeah, when you started talking about

3:01:01that the contingency reserve,

3:01:04because hopefully we'll have a positive variance.

3:01:07If it doesn't work out that the hospital says,

3:01:09no, you can't defer the 750,000 for one year,

3:01:14I will move a motion that the hospital only

3:01:17come from the operating contingency reserve

3:01:21instead of adding it on to base.

3:01:24Okay, we've done that in the past actually.

3:01:26So thank you.

3:01:27Okay, anything else on reductions?

3:01:31Okay, additions, I heard you say you're looking

3:01:34to add to the budget, Councillor Gullard.

3:01:37Go ahead.

3:01:38Thank you, Your Worship.

3:01:39The first one, I will be seconding Councillor Rourke's motion

3:01:43for 43,335 for two years for the physician recruitment.

3:01:50I will also be moving a motion to increase transfers

3:01:54to the affordable housing reserve.

3:01:56Currently we are transferring 500,000.

3:01:58I would be looking to transfer 1.5 million per year.

3:02:01I think one of the main reasons we're getting to travel

3:02:04with the hospital cost, police cost,

3:02:07is because we are underfunding this reserve.

3:02:11And my last one would be to reinstate

3:02:15the council approved level of funding

3:02:16for the redevelopment of downtown Guelph.

3:02:20And that would not be an impact to 2024,

3:02:22but it would be down the road 2026, 2027 impact.

3:02:28Yes, sir.

3:02:29Thank you, Your Worship.

3:02:31Okay, thank you, Councillor Katelyn.

3:02:33I see your hand for additions.

3:02:34Go ahead.

3:02:35Thank you.

3:02:36It's not exactly an immediate addition,

3:02:39but I would like to propose a motion

3:02:42that expands our current tax deferral program

3:02:48for the increases to include a larger range

3:02:52of low income rather than just people who are on ODSP

3:02:55or seniors who are receiving the benefits listed.

3:02:58So I would like to expand it to those who are listed

3:03:02in our low income bus pass income bracket.

3:03:09So that may have a tax impact,

3:03:10but I would like to direct staff

3:03:12to bring this back to us at the March 2024

3:03:18property tax program debate.

3:03:26So it wouldn't be just for at the end of budget.

3:03:28It would be for March 2024.

3:03:30They would bring it back to us to review.

3:03:34Yep, I got you.

3:03:35So yeah, after we do the additions and subtractions

3:03:38and we're like done,

3:03:40then I can go to such a motion like yours

3:03:44because it has no direct impact to the budget.

3:03:46It's more of a policy thing, but it's reflective.

3:03:48So you're going to be tabling it at the right time, for sure.

3:03:53Okay, anything else around the room for additions?

3:03:57Okay. Oh yeah, Councillor Kerron.

3:04:00Thanks.

3:04:02I'll be looking at just moving.

3:04:03I don't know if it's an addition,

3:04:05but moving the bicentennial planning to 2024

3:04:10into a community working group model.

3:04:13And I don't believe it's going to have

3:04:15a budget impact.

3:04:16The purpose of that is to get started earlier

3:04:19to do community partnerships and community fundraising,

3:04:22which will actually offset anything

3:04:25that the city may have to spend in a later year.

3:04:27But it will move the amount that's allocated

3:04:30for that committee support from 2025 to 2024.

3:04:34And hopefully that will pay off at a later date.

3:04:38Okay, thank you.

3:04:40And I think Councillor Gowler also mentioned

3:04:42about going good to best and working on the downtown piece.

3:04:47I would be looking at going from good to better.

3:04:50So I'll follow up with Councillor Gowler

3:04:53on what he's thinking in terms of that line item.

3:04:58Okay, thank you.

3:04:59Just to encourage Council to look at the budget board answers

3:05:03in regards to that issue,

3:05:05because some of it may be non-monetary impacts

3:05:09for next year, but considerations

3:05:10for moving forward the years after that.

3:05:14That's it.

3:05:16Yep.

3:05:19Okay, so my encouragement to everyone here is just to say

3:05:26that we had this budget on November the third

3:05:31and we're landing on November the 29th.

3:05:33And I just want to say we've had a ton of time

3:05:38to ask our questions for our budget buddy,

3:05:42for interaction amongst ourselves.

3:05:47Tonight was an added meeting.

3:05:49And so when we get to next week on the 29th,

3:05:54I've said this to you in advance already,

3:05:56but I just want to say it out loud.

3:05:58It is decision day.

3:06:01It is not rehashing questions

3:06:04that you could have asked over the last month.

3:06:08We are going to make decisions that day.

3:06:11And I'm just giving a heads up.

3:06:13I'm going to be very tight on us being efficient

3:06:18and effective and I'm going to add the word respectful

3:06:21to everything that happens.

3:06:23And including our procedural bylaw around time limit

3:06:26for everybody.

3:06:27We are going to move through the motions

3:06:31of these amendments up and down.

3:06:33And we're going to move and move and move and move

3:06:36and let your vote be your voice as much as possible.

3:06:39Of course, there's commenting opportunities at the end.

3:06:43And of course, things can pop up.

3:06:46And I absolutely recognize that.

3:06:49That is the right of us sitting as a body of council

3:06:51to have the ability to table things in the moment,

3:06:54if so be it.

3:06:55But this is such a great opportunity with the intentions

3:06:58to be very public about it.

3:07:00I encourage my council colleagues to please work

3:07:03with each other and make your case

3:07:08with each other so that we don't need to be spending hours

3:07:13trying to make your case on an issue on the 29th.

3:07:17I want to thank my council colleagues

3:07:20that this has been very, very good this month.

3:07:23I've heard nothing but respectful comments and dialogue

3:07:29and feedback from the community, especially

3:07:32around your town halls, how you've engaged.

3:07:34This has been very, very good.

3:07:37There are some takeaways with this new structure, 100%,

3:07:41that I've already talked about with staff

3:07:42and I've already heard from you.

3:07:44And just remember, we have a budget debrief opportunity

3:07:48after every budget.

3:07:49So we'll collect feedback and we'll continue to tweak

3:07:52as we move forward to make things better for everybody

3:07:56every year as we move forward together.

3:07:57But a tough budget.

3:07:59So this is crunch time.

3:08:01And here we go.

3:08:02For the next week, please work together.

3:08:04Work with staff.

3:08:06You have until four o'clock on Monday

3:08:08to get all those things figured out

3:08:10so that the clerk's department can get everything ready

3:08:14for the 29th.

3:08:16Okay, thank you very much everyone.

3:08:19And councillor Galper, over to you.

3:08:21What's up?

3:08:22Just the questions, your worship.

3:08:24When does the budget work close?

3:08:32We are looking to close it by Sunday the 26th.

3:08:36If I have the day right, I think that's the Sunday.

3:08:39So we have at least a day to respond before the 29th.

3:08:45Thank you for asking that.

3:08:46That's great.

3:08:48I am going to adjournment, but I get to use my right

3:08:53as the mayor, just to remind everyone right now

3:08:55of ward four town hall tomorrow.

3:08:58Please join our friends, councillor Billings

3:09:02and busitil at the West End Center at seven o'clock

3:09:07in the lion's room again at the West End Center

3:09:10where if you have other questions or comments

3:09:13or opinions about the proposed budget,

3:09:15it'd be great to hear from you.

3:09:16Thank you to all of the staff that have been here tonight.

3:09:19Seriously, thank you very, very much.

3:09:21Let's work together this next week.

3:09:23Hold on a second.

3:09:24I have a councillor that might have been wanting,

3:09:28no, perfect, we're good.

3:09:30Have a good night everyone.

3:09:31Oh, no, adjournment.

3:09:32I got to ask for that.

3:09:34Councillor Gibson, councillor Guller,

3:09:35anyone against adjournment?

3:09:37Nobody, let's go home, bye-bye.