Council Orientation and Education Workshop

1:27I feel like the Waltons. Good morning, Kathy. Good morning, Ken. Good morning, Phil. Good morning,

1:34Rodrigo. Who else is on? That's it. Good morning. Good morning, Linda.

1:41Morning, everyone. I'd rather be saying good night.

1:48When we all... That's dating us, right? I mentioned that to my... I'm going to call the

1:54meeting tour, or now, before this gets out of hand. Yeah, we're going to merge into the Brady Bunch

2:00theme song in a second, or Hollywood Squares. So, thank you very much for joining us here today,

2:08everybody. I did get regrets from Councillor Gibson. We are here for a continuation of Council

2:15Education slash Orientation slash Workshop. And this one is specific to the Downtown

2:24Parking Master Plan. And looking forward to this conversation and ideas and where we're going and

2:32solutions and so on. So, I'm really excited about it. Hope you are, too. We do have staff that are

2:42going to be helping us through the presentation. We have some facilitators and consultants here

2:48with us as well. I want to say a big welcome to you. And just off the top, I'm going to say what I

2:54always say during workshops, which is we can be a little less informal today. The facilitator is

3:02really going to kind of take over and engaging with each of you directly, not having to go through

3:07me as the chair. Okay. I'll help, obviously, just because we got the hybrid stuff going on here,

3:11too. I'll help facilitate a bit, but do not worry about having to do the through you, Mr. Mayor

3:18kind of stuff. Okay. Because it's a workshop. We'll have opportunities to through this

3:22presentation, little breaks I've been told to actually have not breaks like, you know, physical

3:27breaks, but to break after certain themes where we can have actual conversations and workshop

3:33through things and discussions and questions and answers. So that's great. All right,

3:37enough from me. I'm going to turn it over. First of all, any disclosure of pecuniary interest or

3:42any general nature thereof for the issue in front of us? Don't see or hear anything. And

3:50we're going to turn it over to our deputy CAO Jane Holmes for some opening remarks and to

3:56kick us right off into the workshop. Thank you. Great. And good morning, everybody. Thank you,

4:01Mr. Mayor and members of council. So today we are here to explore the exciting world of parking,

4:07in particular in the downtown. This is part of our downtown parking master plan process. There

4:13aren't any decisions that need to be made today, but we've got some information that we'd like to

4:18share with you and we'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on parking in the downtown as well.

4:24So with that, I will turn it over to Mr. Gaiman. Thank you, Jane. And good morning, Mayor Guthrie,

4:31counselors and members of the public and my colleagues in the audience today. So my name

4:36is Terry Gaiman. I'm the city's general manager of engineering and transportation services.

4:40I'm joined today by my colleagues in the parking office. We have Jamie Zettle, who is our program

4:44manager of our parking services. Steve Anderson is the manager of transportation engineering.

4:50So I'm excited to be here today to spend time with council on this complex topic of parking.

4:54I'll offer a few opening remarks as we begin this workshop, discussing the future of vehicular

4:59and bicycle parking services in our downtown. To begin, I'd like to cover why we are here today.

5:05We're hosting this workshop to solicit your feedback as we develop this next downtown

5:09parking master plan. Today, we hope to achieve three objectives. First, provide information on

5:15the current state of parking operation, its performance, financing and opportunities. Second,

5:21to demonstrate how parking is an investment in city building and a partner to achieve our

5:25shared strategic goals. And third, to engage in a conversation with you about the future

5:31priorities of the parking service and to hear your thoughts on the pace of change in transforming

5:36the operation to support those strategic goals. Now, in terms of why an update to the master plan

5:42is being undertaken, the previous version of the downtown parking master plan was first approved

5:47by council in 2015 and updated in 2018. And a lot has changed in the parking ecosystem since then.

5:54We've seen changes in Guelph's downtown development, economic activity,

5:59post pandemic behaviors, transit use and climate goals. And so today's conversation and this study

6:05is focused on exploring these factors on parking in the downtown within the geographic limits of

6:10the downtown secondary plan area. The study of parking outside downtown was recommended through

6:16the transportation master plan and will be undertaken as a separate study, which is currently

6:21in staff's work plan for 2025. Staff are scheduled to bring the downtown parking master plan to

6:26committee of the hall later this year on Wednesday, September 6th. An important component of today's

6:32workshop is to determine how we align the future of the city's parking service with a strategic plan

6:37and other key strategic initiatives. The parking service is a key influence in the success of our

6:42ability to achieve our transportation mode shift targets, adoption of transit and reduction of

6:48greenhouse gas emissions while supporting economic development and invigorating our downtown.

6:54In all our work, we will continue to be guided by the core values articulated in the city's

6:58transportation master plan and those community value statements, which I'll speak more about in a

7:02moment. As we discuss the future priorities of the parking service during this workshop,

7:09it's important that we center our discussion in the context of the strategies approved by council,

7:13which will guide this work. The parking study considers the strategic direction and objectives

7:19of the corporate plans you see here before you. Finding the right balance between the demand for

7:23parking and our willingness to fund building the supply and the pace of change at which we

7:28collectively want to achieve the goals set out in these strategies is an important outcome of our

7:32conversation today. Today's discussion extends the conversation of last week's economic development

7:38and tourism workshop and anticipates the discussions council will have in the upcoming

7:42transportation and transit workshop and comprehensive zoning by the presentations in April.

7:47We're supported here today by our colleagues in transit, economic development, downtown revitalization,

7:53traffic, planning, bylaw and finance who have lent their expertise, input and professional

7:58guidance to the work. So building on the themes of balance and alignment, this image speaks to the

8:04interconnectedness of parking to various city plans. The city wants to ensure it has the right

8:10amount of parking in the right places at the right prices to support economic development,

8:14tourism and special events. But an exclusive focus on supplying more and more parking can limit our

8:20ability to influence people to switch their transportation choice, taking transit, walking,

8:25carpooling or cycling instead. Making planning decisions to change the parking ratios in office

8:30or residential developments may accelerate building activity but can transfer the

8:35onus to provide parking to the public sector which ensures the city has a remainder in committing

8:41to providing parking for residences and office workers in the future. Increasing on-street parking

8:46options may limit access for residents on those streets. For many of our residents, the use of

8:52a vehicle and awaiting accessible parking spots equates to being able to access downtown for

8:58work, shopping, entertainment or other purposes. In all decisions, a focus on equity ensures that

9:04we choose options that work for people's different means, needs and abilities.

9:09In this workshop, you will hear the theme of evolution repeated in several contexts.

9:14Downtown has changed significantly since our last master plan and in ways in which citizens

9:19workshop, dine and enjoy entertainment has changed as well in this post-pandemic environment.

9:26Parking can and should be a tool for growth in our downtown if we carefully consider its role

9:30in supporting the overall strategic objectives council has approved over the last several years.

9:35Sound parking strategies which balance the objectives of our city's strategies

9:43can accelerate community building and here's just a few examples.

9:47Thoughtful parking policies can help us meet the city's housing pledge. Today we'll have a

9:52discussion on things like payment and loot policies which can support densifying downtown,

9:57adding more housing units while preserving our cultural heritage.

10:00When parking and planning policies are aligned, an investment in the parking service that supports

10:04customers, workers and tourists accessing downtown can support new institutional uses

10:09and accelerate office and residential growth. Transportation and climate aware parking policies

10:14can also assist us to achieve the modal shifts approved in our transportation master plan

10:19by setting transit and parking rates to promote transit usership, encourage cycling,

10:24supply and secure bike parking and storage and reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

10:34Parking can be a key player in promoting electric charging availability, the use of renewable

10:38energy sources and the adoption of technologies that reduce mechanical street clutter of payment

10:43machines, signage and barriers. Finally in setting our parking priorities we must ensure that we

10:49provide options that work for different people's different means needs and abilities. Equity is

10:54a key focus area of this work. While equity is broader than accessibility, we have already met

10:59with the accessibility advisory committee in February of this year for their input and support

11:04of this work and whose committee members will be key contributors during the next phase of this

11:08public engagement. We plan to return formally to the committee at their June meeting to discuss

11:13our preliminary recommendations for feedback. Equity will continue to be a focus in this work

11:18as we balance access, affordability, needs and means so that the parking service is situated

11:22equitably within the ecosystem of city services available to the public. In all our discussions

11:30today we also need to remain rooted in the community values expressed in our transportation

11:34master plan. Together we will create a parking service that's safe for all users of all abilities

11:40which minimizes its impact on the environment and which is equitable between choices of

11:45transportation. We will also create a complete parking solution and policy set which align with

11:52other users needs, our corporate goals and deliver a strong return for the investment the city makes

11:57in this critical infrastructure. Our policy decisions will ensure the service is affordable

12:03both for the public and for the city's ability to fund, build and operate the service. Finally we

12:09will make parking policies that support approved land use and street design strategies including

12:14complete streets with the support of the growth of our future city. The remainder of our time together

12:21will be divided into two sections. For the next 45 minutes or so the consulting team from BA group

12:27our partners in this parking study will provide background and initial findings from the research

12:32conducted to date, feedback from the initial stakeholder engagement activities and introduce

12:37some of the key opportunities and challenges for discussion. The second part of the workshop

12:42will be a facilitated discussion about the future priorities of the parking service.

12:47So thank you for the opportunity to provide some opening remarks this morning. Now I am

12:50pleased to introduce the team from BA group who will be taking over the remainder of the presentation.

12:55Ralph Bond is a principal from BA group and is the lead on the parking study. He will lead the

13:00presentation going forward. His colleague Stuart Anderson is a senior associate with BA group and

13:06is also here today. Stuart is a co-lead on the ongoing parking study. Finally we're also joined

13:12by Sue Cummings from Cummings & Company which is a registered, Sue is a registered professional

13:17planner and will be the facilitator of our discussion following Ralph's presentation.

13:21So please join me in welcoming them to today's conversation. Good morning. Oh thank you, thank

13:43you very much. So thank you Terry for the introduction. So I think what we want to do is go through

13:51the general format that we're employing to do the study, give you some background and then

13:58move into as we've discussed some engagement in terms of what council thinks it's important to get

14:05everybody's opinions and ideas as we move forward on this study. And I think the study context is

14:16important. It's not dissimilar from many downtowns but I think I always come back to three themes in

14:24most of the parking studies that we've put together which is parking in a downtown context is

14:29all about economic development, transportation, demand management and good urban design. So

14:35economic development as most of you are probably aware is a legacy issue in most downtowns. You have

14:45well over a million square feet of ground floor retail commercial uses in the downtown area that

14:50depend on parking that the city provides. On-street parking, parking garage, surface parking,

14:56without that they wouldn't be successful if that parking wasn't there. So it's an important thing

15:04to keep in mind in terms of helping those businesses thrive but also help as the future unfolds then

15:11and the world moves on and changes. It's important to try to keep track of how that's changing and

15:18what needs to happen in the future. Transportation demand management as Terry mentioned is about

15:25tying things into the transportation master plan and making sure we're consistent with the goals

15:31and objectives of the city in terms of convincing people, encouraging people to use alternative

15:38modes, more walking, more cycling, more transit use and that also ties back into economic development

15:46as I describe it because the more jobs and people living downtown that you get, the more

15:52people you have walking and spending time shopping in those stores, in those businesses and those

16:00services but to get them there quite often still requires parking because some people still need

16:08parking, some people travel from farther distances and it's important to try to keep those two things

16:16in mind and urban design, the amount of parking that you provide, where it's provided, who provides

16:24it can affect how your downtown looks and so I think Guelph is actually quite far along in terms

16:30of minimizing surface lots because they've invested in parking garages like the new garage next to

16:37the city hall, the Market Street parking garage, they're not cheap but it frees up land for future

16:42development and the more that you think about garages in that manner in terms of freeing up

16:50space for economic development or reducing the cost of providing parking the more likely it is

16:56you'll get successful development. Generally cities, municipalities have an advantage over

17:04private developers because they can consolidate parking facilities and they can be shared use

17:11facilities so that they're not put in silos and people can take advantages of time differences

17:17so that you know if office workers aren't using the garage then they can be used for

17:21entertainment and cultural uses. Cities also generally can borrow money cheaper than private

17:27developers and if you build consolidated parking facilities you can generally design the economies

17:34of scale more efficient design and so that's also important to take into account in terms of

17:40where you think about the future and where and if you need to build new parking facilities so

17:47it's they all interweave together and they're all important considerations and we need to

17:53really understand how the downtown works, what the various stakeholders think about that so that

17:59we can figure out what the the best solution might be for the future. We generally, Stewart and I

18:07have done many many parking studies all across the country from Kingston to Saskatoon to Frederickton

18:15and some of the themes and the issues are are similar but each downtown has some unique features it

18:21depends on the mix of the uses in the downtown, the history, the legacy of a particular downtown

18:28and where they are with their other priorities like the transportation master plan so we like

18:34to hear from as many people as possible to understand that that local context but we also like to

18:41rely on on as much data as possible and and also as as we've mentioned keep aware of what the

18:50Guelph priorities are in terms of the various the various stakeholders. So influence is in the

19:02downtown as Terry mentioned the world has changed quite a bit since 2015 and the general real estate

19:11industry and urban development and and even the parking industry is in a state of flux it's in a

19:19state of maybe even turmoil at the moment because of some of the factors that you see here first and

19:24foremost the work from home hybrid working arrangements is throwing the whole question mark as to

19:30you know how much parking do we need in the future? Is it going to get back to where it was before?

19:37How how is that going to influence parking activity as as you can see from you know attendance in

19:43office space or even at the council meeting? A lot of people are virtual these days the question is

19:49will it will it will it get back to normal and and it's a hard question to answer I just went

19:55through it for our office space releasing new office space in our office in downtown Toronto

20:00where we we have a hundred employees but we're lucky if we see 20 of them show up at any one time

20:05you know what do you what do you do? How much space do you need? What do you need to do to get

20:09people back in the office? Then we had the impact of COVID on trans on parking and transit activity

20:17parking revenues were down which is what we've seen you know all across the country they're

20:22gradually building back up but but they may may not get back up to where they were before the

20:29same thing is unfortunately happening on transit as well the transit use isn't back to where it

20:35used to be because of the work from home issue and and also some people reportedly are more

20:42hesitant to use transit than than they were before. We have the growth of delivery services curbside

20:48pickup as more and more people work from from home and and less people visit physical buildings

20:56we're seeing quite a growth in delivery and curbside pickup we we work on a lot of condominiums

21:01developments as an example and and right now one of the biggest things when I work with architects

21:06on condominiums is figuring out how much bigger to make the holding areas for all the deliveries

21:11that show up at condominiums and they found during the last few years they had nowhere to put all

21:16the parcels so that you know it's another example of of what's happening but those vehicles need

21:21to park at a curb they need to make they need to make deliveries that competes with on-street

21:26parking spaces and then the demand for patios of course we see all all of those items listed

21:34here on the screen and then of course there's going to be changes in the downtown the cooperators

21:39are relocating out of the downtown to the suburbs the reuse of that space is going to be an important

21:45factor on on the parking system and figuring out whether the parking demand for the new use will

21:52be the same as or more than it was before or less than it was before the new library it's

21:58much bigger and better facility probably will attract more users more parking demand than it

22:05than it did before the all-day go service when it arrives might attract more people to come and

22:12drop off curbside pickup and drop off and maybe even park in the downtown to try to use the the

22:19all-day go service and and of course the city and most downtowns are hoping that there's an increase

22:26they're forecasting an increase in downtown events hockey games entertainment that actually seems to

22:31be coming back in most downtowns and generating generating new additional parking demand so how

22:39is the parking master plan being updated it's it's it's a balancing act there's a lot of competing

22:45interests a lot of different factors to take into account when we've we've conducted with

22:52sue comings help our facilitator many many consultation so far almost 30 of them with

22:58various stakeholder groups often one stakeholder group will have a completely opposite opinion

23:05to the one we just talked to and and that isn't unusual but it's important to understand those

23:10perspectives and and figure out what they mean so we're going to continue to do that engagement

23:16and and get that input and that's why we're also here today to hear from council about

23:22their their concerns their their suggestions and and and any questions that they might help

23:29that guide us through this study the the other part of the master plan as we mentioned is to

23:36support city policy goals but also consider all those things in the future that might affect

23:42how parking will unfold and to accommodate shifting demands in some respects it'll be about the pace

23:49of change we know the world is changing the question is you know how fast does it change and what

23:55contingencies or resiliency should the city think about building into its parking system so that it

24:02it can easily adapt to those changes as as we move forward we the way we are framing the study is

24:11three key phases checking in phase which is where we are today consulting with the various

24:19stakeholders understanding what the issues are what the plans are the other plans the city has

24:24going forward the next stage that will work through in the spring and into the summer is recalibrating

24:31after listening to all of the stakeholder input try to come up with options and estimates of what

24:39we think may happen in the future I think there'll be more than one given the way the world is

24:45evolving and and it'll be a matter of looking at a few what-if scenarios and trying to find a plan

24:53that is able to as I said is resilient enough to accommodate all of those and then in the the third

25:00phase of the study then we will move forward we'll come we'll we'll produce actual recommendations

25:06and and some timelines on how we think there's certain critical steps that the city should take

25:12to to ensure that that we can move into the future and this is just a more detailed version of it

25:22as I said checking in we've we've done 30 stakeholder consultations so far we'll continue

25:29to do that moving into the future we are going to have a virtual public presentation in April

25:38it's the middle of April I think it's the 13th yeah 13th of April thanks Sue that we're going to do

25:44that we've already put the public survey out on the on the city's website and it's probably gone

25:54up higher but I understand this morning we've already had seven over 700 responses to the website

26:01so people still are interested in parking it seems and and it'll it'll it'll be good to

26:07sift through those as we get them we're then going to hold a workshop in in late April or early May

26:13with all of the stakeholders and bounce some ideas off them have them provide your critical

26:19comments to to make sure that we haven't missed anything and then as I said move forward in the

26:24summer so that we get back to council in September with a with a report and and recommendations and

26:32I think that's the overarching approach to the study of just some some some background

26:40on the existing parking system there's about 300 and there's 1365 spaces in three park aides

26:48that the city's invested in over the years the last one being the market street park aid five

26:54off street parking lots a thousand spaces generally in the downtown 600 of them are in the downtown

27:00proper in in that two-hour free parking zone the operations and and enforcement are separate the

27:09the engineering department looks after operations and management enforcement is conducted separately

27:15uh there's there's about 1400 monthly permits out there today I think it was higher than that

27:23pre-pandemic probably closer to 1700 short-term parking activity is down but moving up and as I

27:31mentioned before event activity is is also moving up and an important part of of demand in in in the

27:39downtown the the parking supply may be a little hard to read that slide there the parking supply

27:48has has been changing since 2015 there there has been a few parking lots closed the baker street lot

27:58of course has been closed to accommodate that nice new development to bring people into the

28:03downtown and it will be replaced in part with some parking under under the new library but you can

28:10you can see that generally from 2015 we had 1700 spaces and by the time we get through and the

28:16baker street facility is built we'll have about 1900 spaces in off street lots that doesn't include

28:23the um the on-street parking spaces and the the the original secondary plan uh has always identified

28:36the fountain street lot as a future parking garage site and that was uh done as part of the work we

28:42helped the city with in preparing that secondary plan in 2015 where we looked at what the future

28:48development opportunities would be both of the tracks and and whether or not there would be a

28:55need for a new parking structure there we're going to re-examine that as part of this study and figure

29:00out whether that's still necessary whether it all should still be in the fountain street lot if

29:05it's necessary or whether it should be spread around a little bit a little bit more as as we go

29:11into the future we did do some snapshots of existing parking activity uh in in the fall to

29:25understand what was going on it's it's it's a bit of an odd scenario because of the effects of

29:31COVID and the fact that people are working from home but we wanted to get a rough idea of just how

29:38busy parking activity is in the downtown so that we can start trying to understand how it

29:43might build up so we spent some time talking to cooperators um about how many employees they

29:49typically have in the downtown and they were as an example generous enough to say to us if you do

29:55surveys we'll tell you because they have card readers like you do here at city hall how many

30:00employees are actually in the buildings on the day you survey so that we can then understand try to

30:06answer that question again if if if activity returns to what it was before how would how would

30:12that change or if another use what kind of use goes into the cooperators building what kind of

30:18parking demand it might add and we're trying to get we have similar statistics on the city hall

30:25the days that we did surveys how occupied it was the building and we're going to use that to to try

30:32to build up an estimate under different scenarios of what the future might look like I think there'll

30:38be several different versions of that we'll also try to take into account what happens if if transit

30:44use increases as it as the city wants it to as identified in in the transportation master plan

30:51if we need to we can go back out and do some other surveys I think you probably know the city put in

30:57um some parking space sensors and on their on street so that actually uh is is a is a great move

31:04to be able to to collect data into the future on those on street spaces without going around and

31:09having to do it in person or or some other way and we can get good real time time data as we move

31:14forward onto that the parking garages are are monitored and and provide occupancy information

31:22so that's that we'll use that as we move forward as well um financial considerations of course um

31:29it's always one of the big uh elephants in the room as I call it is how how do you know how does

31:36the city's parking system fare into the future and if they need to invest in more parking how

31:42how does that happen how do we generate the funds to pay for it so we we think it'll be it will be

31:49important to continue invest to invest in the existing parking facilities the city's recently

31:55conducted a number of upgrades on those those parking facilities which are important as they

32:01age you need to set aside funds and reserve funds to make sure that that they they're well

32:07maintained and and you're not taken by surprise you don't you don't want one year 20 years into

32:12even the new garage at some point probably 15 years from now you'll have to start spending money to

32:18upgrade and replace certain pieces of it and you don't really want a big surprise that you then

32:24have to deal with it's it's a good idea to set money aside in reserve funds the city's city's

32:30been doing that um the the other financial considerations there with the idea of maybe

32:38having to build a another parking garage on the fountain street lot or or elsewhere the original

32:45plan in 2015 was to use some money from development charges to fund new garages the recent changes

32:53by the province don't allow that to happen anymore so there's a funding gap there that's occurred

33:00because of that that we will have to look at and council will have to decide whether you know how

33:06they want to make that up if more money has to be spent into the future another issue another

33:12consideration on payment or on parking finances is maybe the idea one of the items we want to

33:19investigate is a payment and lieu program so that if developers in the downtown um as often is the

33:27case on tight complicated downtown sites can't quite build enough parking they can then ask the city

33:35to supply some of that parking you can in return for letting them not build the parking that's in

33:42the zoning bylaw you ask them to make a payment because effectively they're using the city's

33:47parking facilities and that's another way of obtaining some funds to help build new parking

33:54garages you don't want to make that too expensive where the developers won't see um a good economic

34:01reason to do it in in many cases a lot of projects we've worked on the city has made the fee too high

34:07and it doesn't it doesn't really get used or it's an impediment for small developers who don't have

34:15big big economies of scale so we want we want to look at that as as one one source of of trying to

34:22fund future parking programs some municipalities have also been thinking about using payment and

34:29loot programs not just to fund parking but other items like bicycle parking improving sidewalks

34:37streetscapes doing other things that would encourage people not to use parking because if you

34:43parking spaces are expensive they're the the market street garage was about $55,000 of parking

34:49space if you go underground it's going to be well over 100,000 of space each person you can get

34:56switching to walking or cycling or taking transit will save the cost of those extra parking spaces

35:03if if you can if you can make that happen so some cities have said well why don't we use some of

35:08that payment and loot money to actually invest in those other TDM measures that will reduce the

35:15demand for parking and of course the the big financial consideration is how much should the

35:23how much parking should the city provide into the future today the existing parking system

35:34generates about $4.8 million in revenue operating costs are about $1.3 million the depth service

35:42costs for the market garage are about a million dollars a year and then there's reserve transfers

35:49to the as I mentioned earlier to make sure there's funds set aside for future repairs and investment

35:55and the existing parking operation operates at a deficit of about a million dollars a year which

36:03is funded by the by the general uh tax base the replacement cost the very rough replacement cost

36:10of the existing system today is roughly about 75 million with the new library garage being added

36:17in it'll probably get closer to 95 or 100 million dollars eventually so it's a it's a pretty substantial

36:26municipal asset and as I mentioned earlier if if we determined that it's that at some point in the

36:34future it'll probably be in the medium or long term not the short term another garage is required

36:40it could be the city at some point would need to spend another 25 or 30 million on a on a parking

36:46garage maybe not but we're going to take a careful look at that and understand how that affects the

36:53finances I think this slide I don't need to spend too much time on it's just for information purposes

37:00to break down the type of of revenue that the city is is getting so you can see and the revenue

37:07continues to improve 1.9 million in permit revenue 2.6 million in in transient uh revenue we're hoping

37:16that those numbers will increase as as uh demand picks back up in the downtown it's not a certainty

37:22but that's another unknown that we need to think about and and plan from a contingency point of view

37:30or a resiliency point of view the previous master plan in 2015 thought that eventually

37:40the city might need to build 1,350 to 1,700 new parking spaces and and part of that was

37:46accomplished with the the new market garage 500 spaces the that master plan as terry mentioned the

37:55the world has changed quite a bit we're going to look now that the new transportation master plan

38:00has been done how the mode shift mode share targets have changed that from what we understand and what

38:07I've read so far that number will come down quite a bit because the the investments the cities decided

38:13to make in transit will help reduce that demand and and also I think the the working from home

38:20phenomena will will help reduce that that demand as well so what what could the medium term future

38:31look like and the the way that we're starting to approach that is as as we know the cooperators is

38:37leaving depending on what kind of use and and how fast that new use comes on aboard in the cooper's

38:44cooperators building it could produce a demand for 600 new parking spaces which which is good news

38:51because the space is there as we've seen from the surveys and and that will help increase revenue

38:57and activity in in the downtown and and and make those garages more active than they currently are

39:03it'll start to get back to normal the new library roughly I think it might generate during a week

39:10day another 60 space parking demand based on on what we understand from the parking statistics

39:16so it could be in the in the medium term and I'd say that's maybe the next five to ten years

39:21that 660 more parking spaces will get get used in the downtown we just have to understand again

39:29that that might be higher or lower depending upon how this work from home phenomena continues to

39:37evolve over the next few years in the in the very long term working with the the planning

39:45department on growth projections for the downtown there there could be in the long term say more

39:52than 10 years 10 to 20 year period and maybe even a little bit longer for new apartments we could have

39:58600 new employees in the downtown

40:00town, 6500 new apartments. And if if the if people traveled the way they do today,

40:09that could add demand for another 550 spaces. But as I mentioned, the city's

40:15transportation master plan has some targets for the future that should

40:22reduce that number and and how fast that'll happen when it'll happen. That

40:27pace of change is something we need to think about and and just how far down

40:33that number can can can get. We're going to take a look at as as we move

40:39through the study. So I think as I was saying that we will probably need some

40:47more municipal parking as we move into the future. The question is is how much

40:52and where should it be located? It could be that from the previous work in 2015

40:59it all doesn't have to be on the fountain street lot. It maybe needs to be

41:03spread over a little bit more of the area in the downtown depending on where

41:07you think you're going to get new development or new activity in the

41:10downtown. Sometimes in in some projects we've worked on it makes sense to spread

41:16it out so that you're not spending as much at once if you need to provide new

41:21parking and you're not pre-building a lot of parking that will take a while to

41:25fill up and generate revenue. So sometimes smaller dispersed is better than

41:31concentrated but we'll take a look at that and and and try to see. The

41:36distribution is is important. We hear from some of the downtown businesses that

41:41you know with the loss of the Baker Street lot and some of it's being replaced

41:45but the north end of the downtown isn't is is in their view short of parking

41:52compared to the south end and and the main part of the downtown because that's

41:56where the parking garages are all occupied. So part of the exercise will be

42:01also we've heard through the engagement is trying to figure out how to manage

42:06the parking that will be available in the future so that it's better used and

42:09how to encourage more people to use parking garages. You know we always hear

42:13this story everybody wants to park right outside the door the space they're

42:17going to visit. It's interesting it's true that's what everybody says when

42:23people go to shopping malls that doesn't happen right they park quite a

42:26distance from a shopping mall and we'll walk quite a distance but somehow in a

42:30downtown it's it's a big issue and and part of it revolves around people's

42:35perception of where things are for some reason they seem to think it's further

42:39but it isn't. Some people are concerned about going into multi-level garages and

42:44not sure if they can find a space. I think with the the occupancy monitoring

42:50system that that helps. Some people are concerned about the security aspects of

42:55parking and so I think we need to look at all of those things to try to make

42:59sure as we move into the future it's managed as efficiently and effectively as

43:05possible. We some places we've looked at providing instead of providing free

43:11parking on the street as an example provide free parking for two-hour

43:16visitors in the garage because it makes it encourages them to use the garage.

43:22There's a lot of people if you ask them in downtown believe it or not who

43:25actually don't mind paying for on-street parking if they can find it and

43:31don't and rather than circling around or going into a parking garage. I don't

43:36know that that's the right solution yet here but you know that's an example of

43:40what we'll look at as as we move in into the future. We're also going to look at

43:45zoning bylaw requirements. How much parking should the city ask new

43:50developers or new developments to provide. North of the tracks in the

43:56traditional downtown the requirements for commercial development is zero for

44:02apartments it's one space per unit. In south of the tracks when we work with

44:09the city in 2015 in the area around Fountain Street the we looked at that

44:18in terms of if you could provide five or six hundred spaces on the Fountain

44:22Street lot and 150 spaces on street the city could provide that amount of

44:28parking for that development in the area so then what was left over is what

44:34the developers should be asked to provide and it worked out to about 50% a

44:40lot less on the retail side so on that side of the downtown we the idea at the

44:47time was to the city would do quite a bit in terms of providing parking but

44:51not as much as it did in the traditional downtown and that was partly as they

44:56explained where where we thought how much the city could actually provide

45:00physically but also financially because again if we're cities going to build

45:04garages their expenses they're going to be 25 or 30 million dollars a piece so

45:09maybe we should ask developers to pay for some by building some on their own

45:14site but not all of it and the city can can provide the rest we're going to look

45:19at those numbers and see if they should be reduced or changed in light of the

45:24TMP and and other factors the the consideration there will be if you

45:32lower those numbers there there's probably a good reason in some cases to

45:36do that given what we see happening but if you lower them too much then the

45:43demand will still occur and the city just like it did in the existing downtown

45:48will end up sooner or later being faced to provide that parking a lot we're

45:53hoping over time as transit use increases and the other factors that

45:57demand will go down but it won't go to zero so the question is trying to find

46:02that balance in a zoning bylaw in terms of how much parking you provide how

46:07much parking will a developer decide to provide and and if it isn't enough how

46:12much will the city end up needing to fill in fill in that gap to to have it

46:18happen and and in the short term it's back to the pace of change it'll be

46:24more important to try to understand how much that might be and as I mentioned

46:28the payment and loo program if you leave those parking requirements in place you

46:32get you need to make sure they're right they're not excessive in fact maybe

46:36they should be aggressive on the low side to encourage people to use

46:39alternative modes but if you if you have those in place and the developers

46:45still can't provide on the site for good reasons enough the city can take a

46:50payment to help fund a more efficient public parking garage or perhaps use it

46:57for other transportation demand management initiatives to encourage

47:02people to use other modes so next steps I think as we mentioned that transit and

47:10transportation workshop we're going to hold in April we're going to continue

47:14engaging with the public and the stakeholders and going through those

47:18alternatives and come back to council with a report in in September so I

47:24think on that too Cummings is now going to go through the facilitation process

47:31and try to get your feedback after my probably too long but boring discussion

47:35but I think it's important to sort of fill in the back thank you Ralph's not

47:40going anywhere either I'm sure there are some questions and comments and

47:44discussion so thank you very much Mayor Guthrie members of council staff

47:50colleagues and of course the public who may be observing this so we're excited

47:54to have a discussion and I'm sure many of you have questions and things that

47:57you'd like to really ask specifically so for the next I guess hour and 15 minutes

48:01and we'll we'll definitely look to conclude by noon we wanted to be able to

48:06really get your ideas and thoughts and from that perspective we know that the

48:10team is here to respond to questions and you may have them as part of your

48:13discussion in a hybrid format it's often challenging to ensure that everyone

48:18virtually can participate as well as everyone in the room so we will look to

48:21just sort of having to jump in when you can I understand mayor Guthrie that the

48:25formality is somewhat dispensed so I may not to call upon individual

48:29specifically but I would ask as we go through our discussion that we want to

48:33everyone has an opportunity to participate so if you are another

48:37colleague has gone ahead of you if we can just show some some depth reference

48:40for each other so that we can can jump in that would be great all ideas are

48:44welcome here this is a discussion session in that there there's a lot of

48:47stuff to talk about and so we'd love to hear is a critical point in the study

48:51in terms of thoughts you have ideas if you've heard of something somewhere else

48:55it's been tried if you're hearing something from the public or stakeholders

48:58that how are we gonna look at that how is it gonna factor in this would be a

49:02really good time to hear that so Ralph has left me with the tricky

49:06tricky advancing this is the button here correct

49:10Jamie's going to tell me if I've done incorrectly so we've identified three

49:14key discussion topics and we fully appreciate that you may have many other

49:18topics that you would like to discuss so that is not to constrain your

49:21discussion but just try and organize it so that we can manage some of the

49:25feedback that we have and the first one strengthening the

49:28downtown parking ecosystem as a key tool for community building

49:32you heard through both the opening remarks that Terry Gaman made

49:35and also Ralph Bohn's presentation the proposition that parking is an

49:38investment in infrastructure so when we often think about parking it may not

49:42fit into that that misnomer of it being something as an

49:45investment so the sense is as an investment in infrastructure

49:49and as it's very comprehensively linked to everything else

49:52you know what what do you see in terms of how can the city leverage that how can

49:56the city use the investment you've already made and the one you will continue

49:58to do to leverage your goals and that would include the economic development

50:02goals of vibrant downtown looking at new development both

50:06residential and commercial in downtown your housing pledge your other key goals

50:10run equity so that would be our first area of

50:13discussion and I'm just going to go through the three topics and then we'll

50:15come back to the first one if we could so what ideas do you have about

50:19how parking can be leveraged in the sense of to achieve those goals

50:22as opposed to it being a standalone type of service that you're providing

50:26secondly a future strategy for financing we're off went through the

50:30financing financing piece of it the options there's lots to talk about of

50:33course lots of good input has come from all departments at

50:36city staff on looking at this so what ideas do you have the payment

50:40and cash and loo was identified as an option

50:43the certainly the user pay and the tech support it is a discussion that i'm

50:48sure you've continued to have so thoughts on that if you have other ideas

50:51that you would really like to be to be looked at this point in time that's

50:54also very critical for us and thirdly how bold should the city be

50:58in terms of managing change at the pace of changes

51:01is a conversation that we've certainly been having with many of the internal

51:05stakeholders around the goals that you have but how you're going to get there

51:09at the same time we're hearing from the dgba and

51:12the chamber of commerce and certainly accessibility committee and many individuals

51:16that that pace of change is a critical piece in this

51:19because you have goals you want to get to but you don't want to lose what you

51:21already have if you go too soon to some of those things so there's

51:25certainly i'm sure around the council table there are a virtual and in person

51:30here there are different thoughts about how fast you get to where you're going

51:33and parking's role in that so in terms of the themes we have identified the first

51:38question we had was we believe sound parking strategies can accelerate

51:42community building and growth and you might have to take a leap of faith was

51:45us on that if you if you think that you agree with that and the sense being

51:48that how do you think the city can leverage parking to be its goals

51:52so it looks like maric afre would like me to go to him first

51:56oh no i'm not going to take any anything from my colleagues i didn't make that

51:59way um at all i just thought maybe for ease because you're in the room with

52:03three of us and then you got a whole bunch online maybe it would just be very

52:07easy for you and you choose whatever you want maybe you could start online first

52:11or whatever great and just why don't you just call out every single every i'm

52:16getting text messages and i'm seeing hands call everyone wants to say something

52:20okay so it might be just easier if you just go ahead and just use to say

52:24hey councillor alts hey councillor karan okay you know and then just you because i

52:29i swear to you everyone wants to say something it might be just easier than

52:32you trying to look at hands and bounce all over the place

52:34and then and then come to uh you know carly and dominique and myself

52:38at the end or something like that and and we and then that way it just might be

52:41easier for you right thank you very much and i know that's kind of order

52:46sorry point of order could we have questions first before we get into

52:49discussions yes and councillor karan is absolutely right we normally do

52:55questions and then my comments kind of later so if you could

52:59um mirror that that would be wonderful because we yeah there's probably to

53:05gather the opportunity for comments we almost need answers so the more

53:10questions we can ask and get answers to it helps us form our comments and our

53:13opinions probably so if you went mine to stick in with questions and that goes

53:17for all of us that would be great as councillor karan just said thank you

53:20absolutely and we know we're taking notes we know this is the record but this is

53:23also part of our ensuring we hear so i know that ralph bond is here and

53:27ready to jump up beside me perhaps as is as steward and staff are here so why don't

53:31we go around the room for questions first and then come to the discussion if

53:35that would be helpful i understand um councillor

53:38kaitlin is here so can we start with councillor kaitlin is that fair to start

53:41with councillor kaitlin for any questions you have sir so ma'am sorry um

53:48neither actually um so buying were more equity based and it's more

53:55in terms of what we're going to be offering and i'm sure this is something

53:59you've heard with the accessibility advisory council but for accessible

54:07parking spots the ontario minimums are quite minimum so i think that that's

54:13something that we are looking to kind of go above and beyond but there's also a

54:18lot of disabilities that are not covered in the wheelchair past style

54:25parking spots so for folks that are like me who have

54:29environmental disabilities right now our transit currently

54:33isn't accessible to me so um when i heard in the beginning that

54:38parking is requiring parking is a privilege i'm like

54:42sort of like it depends on if you have the option to take other modes of

54:47transportation so i was just wondering when we're

54:51thinking of underground versus aboveground parking

54:54is that something we're looking at in terms of

54:58providing more than one option to suit people who might need

55:03aboveground versus underground and other things like that

55:08a very important question is that something i could ask uh jamie zettle

55:11to address or would that be Ralph Vaughn?

55:17Councillor gaiton i i i think it's something that we're very aware of

55:21we have a mix currently of um above ground and surface parking we will have

55:28underground parking uh at the new baker street development so

55:32it is an important consideration that you raise is one that we have

55:36certainly we have a lens on it's something we need to work very closely

55:40with our facilities group the design group when we put things out to

55:44tender to sort of make sure that we have this lens of equity and

55:47an ease of use when we look at future facilities

55:52um so it is something that we're aware of i don't have any specific plans that

55:57are in the near future that i could speak to but it is something certainly

56:00that we're looking at in this study

56:03great thank you would we be able to go to Councillor Richardson

56:11Councillor Gibson, Councillor Gowler for any questions that you have just to

56:16begin with yes thank you i i do have a couple

56:20in in terms of the the comparators that we're going to look at

56:25you know is it possible to expand it beyond the approved list of

56:30comparators by the city of Guelph to see what other people in other parts of

56:33perhaps North America or or even further a field are doing in terms of managing

56:38parking and managing downtowns i find it somewhat restrictive that we

56:42usually look at a list of a dozen or so

56:46municipalities in Ontario um and oftentimes if they haven't done it we

56:51say well we don't want to be the first ones to do it so is that a possibility

56:54to look further afield in this case

56:57we're going to call upon Ralph Bond Mayor Guthrie through you to Councillor

57:05Gowler maybe while Ralph is coming up i'll just say

57:08certainly the context is important in our comparator group is

57:11is important in terms of the uniqueness and kind of understanding like for like

57:15to a certain degree but of course also because this is such a broad issue

57:19Councillor Gowler we certainly do have research from other cities including

57:23across North America so our consultant can elaborate a little bit

57:26further on his experience and and how that research is going to be embedded in

57:29this study and and just before we continue with

57:33the answer i've just been asked for those that are joining us by hybrid

57:38what's happening is is that there's only one camera in this room it's the one on

57:41the back wall up there so they um they're having trouble

57:45identifying who is answering the question so would you mind just as you

57:49answer a question just say like who you are what you're

57:52you know what your title is or you're the consultants or whatever just so that

57:56those that are listening in online even they understand

58:00who's responding to it if you don't mind okay thank you go ahead

58:04thank you it's Ralph Bond with BA Consulting so as

58:08as Terry alluded to we we we certainly can look at

58:12certainly what's going on across Canada and and North America and

58:16even even in Europe. Stuart and I are both members of the

58:20Canadian Parking Association which is a group of all the municipalities and

58:25airports and hospitals across Canada so we we can easily

58:29understand or canvas what's going on in in Canada

58:32and as well as the US and and even in Europe and we'll

58:37we'll look for some some interesting examples of

58:41of that might be appropriate depending on what we see pop up here is

58:45something that that needs to be investigated thanks

58:52great thank you Ralph it's coming back again i've received

58:55councillor my apologies yeah just I know I really appreciate that and

59:02another another question that that I wanted to

59:05to to make sure to to ask at this point is

59:09is we have specifically the the challenge of the

59:13of the downtown businesses that have been calling for

59:17for free on-street parking and and and there's the question of you know do we

59:23have paid parking do we not have paid parking so

59:26I was wondering when we look at when you're going to look at your options

59:30of you know exploring whether to have paid paid on-street parking versus

59:35not paid on-street parking what do you look at in terms of

59:39when it's successful to have a downtown that has

59:43all you know all paid parking there's no free parking anywhere in a

59:46downtown what do we look to see if that is

59:50successful versus not successful so I'm wondering as part of your research

59:54apart from looking at fill rates do you also look at the economic

59:59success of that city or feedback from business associations from

1:00:04or or BIAs in those towns yes it's Ralph Bond from BA Consulting we

1:00:16certainly will will look at that and and see how

1:00:19how it happens in various downtowns I think I think the

1:00:23interesting thing that I have found and and it may be a little different in

1:00:27Guelph as we get into it is I think what I alluded to earlier is

1:00:31we we there's always a percentage of people who

1:00:35simply don't like paying for parking at all but when we've actually

1:00:39asked customers as opposed to businesses or

1:00:43or the general population what their concerns are about parking in

1:00:49downtown areas usually it's availability and and again the proximity

1:00:54thing which is really hard to tough nut the crack with I want to be as

1:00:58close as possible they're concerned about safety

1:01:02and security and usually in most cases not all cases the cost of

1:01:07parking is not their top concern they really want to know they can get there

1:01:11they feel safe they can find it it's convenient

1:01:15and and I think we we can we can point to a lot a lot of those

1:01:20examples it's it's hard to change it once

1:01:24it's it's hard to take it back once there is free parking as I'm sure you're

1:01:27well aware and so so you really have to come up with the

1:01:32good reasons as to why that makes makes sense and maybe in Guelph it

1:01:36doesn't but we'll we'll take a careful look at that but I you know

1:01:40most downtowns the vast majority of them parking is not free

1:01:46anywhere and you it varies the rates on street can vary the rates in garages

1:01:52the surface lots as I mentioned earlier you can sometimes put

1:01:56put reduced rate or free parking in garages but

1:02:00it it I think the discussion usually revolves around

1:02:04the hours that you charge how much you charge and whether you vary it

1:02:09depending depending on the on the facility okay okay I really appreciate

1:02:13hearing that that you're going to look both at how the business are doing but

1:02:17also how consumers perceive it that I really appreciate that

1:02:21but my final question will you be looking at

1:02:26are you aware of municipalities that have stopped requiring parking

1:02:32minimums that that is something that that I've seen

1:02:36happen in other cities where in within the downtown area

1:02:40businesses are no longer required to provide parking and

1:02:43residential units are no longer too required to provide parking

1:02:47is that something that you will also be exploring as part of your

1:02:51of your research you know what would happen if all of a sudden

1:02:54we were to not require parking spaces for a new building downtown

1:02:59how that might impact the the downtown scape

1:03:05yes we'll be we'll be looking at that zoning

1:03:09bylaw requirement there are it's become a trend recently to some of the

1:03:16bigger cities and really dense cities with a lot of

1:03:19transit high capacity transit have eliminated

1:03:23parking requirements in the downtown a lot of traditional old downtown's

1:03:28didn't have them in the first place like the the traditional part of Guelph

1:03:32for commercial development downtown hasn't had any

1:03:36they do it first and foremost downtown's do it to

1:03:40encourage commercial development downtown it the interesting piece of it is

1:03:47depending on how much transit and alternative modes are

1:03:51used it doesn't reduce the need for parking

1:03:55as I as I said you in Guelph there was no requirement for commercial parking

1:04:00downtown the city still had to invest in 75 million

1:04:04dollar if you had to replace it today parking garages

1:04:06you still the demand doesn't go away it just gets transferred to the

1:04:11municipality to make sure there's enough and I'm sure

1:04:15you've all heard you know the complaints and concerns from the

1:04:20downtown business groups they don't go away

1:04:24they a lot of them not all of them still think there isn't enough parking

1:04:30even though there was a zero parking requirement so I think what you need to

1:04:34think about is to balance

1:04:38all of those objectives and try to understand what the

1:04:41it's almost the resilient the contingency factor if you

1:04:45eliminated and went to zero parking requirements what

1:04:48what would happen quite often apartment developers I do a lot of work for

1:04:54condominium developers probably these days

1:04:57I do a lot of municipal parking work probably two-thirds of the work I do is

1:05:01for real estate developers so I understand them pretty

1:05:04pretty well most of them are not saying they don't need any

1:05:08parking they're saying they need it they just want the

1:05:12flexibility to build less depending on what they think

1:05:16the demand is but it's really about well how much

1:05:19can I make the profit margins that I want in my development

1:05:23and so they will tend to push it lower and that can be a good thing

1:05:27as long as as the opportunities there for walking

1:05:31cycling taking transit but in the short term

1:05:35you're still going to end up with with the need for

1:05:39for parking and so we just we just have to balance that one example I use is

1:05:44the mississauga city center which isn't a traditional downtown but

1:05:48at one point they eliminated the visitor parking requirement for condominiums

1:05:52and in the mississauga city center they've probably built 15 000 of them

1:05:57the first few buildings that got built the developers

1:06:01provided no visitor parking and these were projects with

1:06:06thousand two thousand units they had a demand for 200 visitor parking spaces

1:06:11the what happened was the the the people who moved into the condominiums

1:06:16immediately complained to the city and said what fool let these people build

1:06:20the condominiums with no visitor parking where our visitor's going to park

1:06:25they've started parking all over the street the city reaction was to give

1:06:28them tickets which didn't help from a public

1:06:32relations point of view our recommendation was to start

1:06:36charging for parking on the street instead of giving them tickets you

1:06:39actually can make money instead of having people I raid at you which they

1:06:42did which helped part of the problem but the net result was the city

1:06:47then went back and put back in the visitor parking requirement

1:06:51so you you just have to be careful with it the city in mississauga has also been

1:06:57reducing the requirements they keep looking at it they keep

1:07:00ratcheting it down as long as you keep looking at it on a regular basis and

1:07:04push it down the chances of something happening like the visitor

1:07:09example I gave are minimized and so it it it's not the same issue in downtown

1:07:15toronto we do a lot of work in downtown toronto where

1:07:18people think in downtown toronto apartment residents are

1:07:22are taking transit in fact 40 to 50 percent of apartment residents in

1:07:27downtown toronto are walking to work are they used to anyways before the

1:07:31pandemic yet and they locate in apartments in

1:07:35downtown toronto because there's 600 000 jobs within a 15 minute

1:07:39walk and that's why parking in downtown toronto can be

1:07:43almost zero obviously in guelph you don't have that many jobs in

1:07:50downtown guelph and you're certainly not downtown toronto

1:07:53so you you have to think about that end of the equation

1:07:57the people that you are going to end up living and working in the downtown

1:08:01what's the other end of the trip and doesn't make sense

1:08:05considering that that you can simply you know make

1:08:09parking requirements zero and as i said in vancouver

1:08:14downtown montreal even downtown calgary

1:08:17downtown toronto it makes sense because 85 percent of the people were

1:08:22not driving anyways but in most other places it's

1:08:25it's not that simple but we'll take it we'll take a

1:08:28look at it well this this takes into my last question

1:08:32is about the periphery of the downtown so when when we have

1:08:36any sort of restriction it it falls out so how far a field will you be looking

1:08:42to make sure that any changes that were implemented in downtown

1:08:46you know we consider the the the potential negative

1:08:50effects we said you know within a five minute radius

1:08:5310 minute radius how far will you be looking just to consider

1:08:58those impacts well the the focus is the downtown but you're

1:09:02right councillor galler that galler that you need to

1:09:06you need to consider the fringes and and just understand what that

1:09:10that might might mean because the the other thing that will happen

1:09:14in some cases if you reduce the parking requirements too much or don't provide

1:09:20enough is that they move into the residential areas people simply

1:09:24park in those locations and and in some traditional

1:09:28downtowns that's okay people are comfortable with that

1:09:30like the work that we've done in Kingston we actually start putting

1:09:35hospital workers on residential side streets because that's cheaper than

1:09:38building a parking garage and at first some of the residents

1:09:44were resistant to that but they found out as we did it gradually that it was

1:09:48okay but you need to have a plan on how you're going to enforce it

1:09:52how you're going to deal with it if you let that happen

1:09:56other cities are completely different because of their

1:10:00their environment the residents don't want anything to do with

1:10:04parking spillover in in their neighboring area if there isn't enough parking

1:10:09in the downtown so i think we'll need to think about

1:10:12think about all of that okay okay i'm glad to hear that's on your mind thank you

1:10:16those are all my questions okay mayor gathry yeah just before we

1:10:20continue i'm just looking at timing and i just would ask everyone including

1:10:25myself that maybe let's try our best not to have

1:10:29long preambles before we get to a question okay get to the question

1:10:33and then that way you can go bang bang bang we're gonna get through everything

1:10:36on time and then after we collect the answers we can go back through each of

1:10:41us if need be to do our opinions on on everything our

1:10:44comments as a takeaway but please uh if we could just get straight to who what

1:10:47why when where uh as the starting point of when we all open our mouths that would

1:10:52be great thank you thank you i have um counselor

1:10:55karen and then counselor buzatell next on my sort of list of people who wanted to

1:10:59speak followed by counselor downer so if we could start with

1:11:02counselor karen great thank you and excellent presentation

1:11:06uh i need a little bit of a preamble uh about the definition

1:11:10we're usually we're talking about parking and we're assuming

1:11:14it's cars so i want to be able to make data driven decisions and um really what

1:11:20we're talking about is personal vehicles and the definition of personal vehicle

1:11:24has changed over the years used to be a horse uh it could be a scooter it could

1:11:29be an e-bike it could be a co-op car share and so when we talk about the

1:11:33$55,000 per stall we're talking about the average width of a vehicle and i'm

1:11:37just wondering whether we will be able to have data whether you already have

1:11:42data on on that shift in what a personal vehicle might

1:11:46look like could we could we be having uh you know one third of our parking

1:11:50facilities uh smaller um um less width for scooters and

1:11:57e-bikes um is that the kind of feedback you're looking for is that

1:12:01the data you already have that data counselor karen this is the james that

1:12:08align their program manager in parking we um in the terms of reference we have

1:12:11expanded the scope of what we consider a vehicle to park so we are looking at

1:12:17full-size personal vehicles uh hybrid vehicles smaller vehicles EV vehicles

1:12:22bicycles scooters motorcycles so i um i can agree with you that the the

1:12:29the definition of a vehicle has changed but we're trying to be quite broad so

1:12:33that we can support all the objectives of the transportation master plans

1:12:37mode shift targets okay that helps because i when i hear that we need you

1:12:41know 17 000 spaces i don't know whether that's cars or whether that's the full

1:12:47range of of personal vehicle definitions so um i guess i can we can look

1:12:52more in that data but just want to make sure that that was being included in

1:12:55the discussion and then the other piece of data that um that would be helpful

1:13:01and i know we i know we've got it and i didn't see it in the in the material

1:13:05was um how long cars stay because we have this day

1:13:10night thing where residents need the car from the time they get home from work

1:13:14until the next morning um but our downtown working population needs the

1:13:20uh parking space when those vehicles are gone

1:13:24and i know that there are you know homeowners close to downtown who are

1:13:27renting out their driveways during the day i've heard of cases where that's

1:13:31already happening so um again maybe that's the kind of

1:13:35feedback you're looking for in this discussion but it'd be nice to have some

1:13:39data about the movement of vehicles between night and daytime

1:13:46yeah cancer color we um cancer care and i apologize we uh we are collecting that

1:13:50data currently so we have dual times from our on-street occupancy

1:13:55sensors dual time on street you'll see all this in the final

1:13:58report but currently dual time on street is about an hour and 46 minutes

1:14:03um and in our off-street facilities obviously it does vary a transient use

1:14:07is slightly under two hours and uh office employee or someone who's here

1:14:12for a long duration or our longest dual time is about six hours so

1:14:16we are collecting that data both from the gate equipment and from our on-street

1:14:19sensors so we'll have that for you in the final report

1:14:22okay fantastic that's what i was looking to hear thanks jimmy

1:14:26great thank you this is Sue coming again we also will be meeting with the

1:14:29Guelph coalition active transportation next monday

1:14:31so it's part of to hear from them on some of their ideas because they tend to be

1:14:35really close to what's happening on the e-bikes and parking for bicycles so we

1:14:39hope to hear good anecdotal data from them as well

1:14:42i next have councillor um buzzatel and then councillor followed by councillor

1:14:45downer very much for the presentation i thought

1:14:49it was excellent i have similar questions to councillor galler

1:14:52around the research i have two questions um and the first one is i think

1:14:56someone mentioned that they're part of a coalition internationally looking at

1:15:00parking and this is a question around it it ties into finance and the

1:15:05costs of downtown parking as a european um what kinds of uh if you can as part of

1:15:11your research speak to what kinds of alternative

1:15:15lower costs no cost for the parking but behave your kinds of ways uh to

1:15:22enforce downtown parking again as a european there are things where

1:15:27residents pay for like a clock and they park and they put a time in there

1:15:32and so there is no cost for the parking up front when you use it but there's

1:15:37kind of a fee but looking more for self-regulation uh around you know i

1:15:42need to run in and grab a couple of things i don't need to park those kinds

1:15:46of things which i didn't see in the report uh you know low cost no cost

1:15:50kinds of of consideration so that's something that i will be

1:15:54looking for the other thing that i didn't see in the report is uh as a former

1:15:58school board trustee there are parking lots that are empty uh during the

1:16:03evenings and so on and i i don't know what practices are in other municipalities

1:16:07around conversations with school boards with church groups around using

1:16:12existing underutilized parking spaces that have limitations for resident

1:16:18downtown resident or other kinds of parking spaces uh recognizing that those

1:16:23facilities have uses from certain hours um and how can we better use those uh

1:16:30spaces that are already paved and everything else thank you thank you for

1:16:37the thank you for the question counselor um we have we continue to engage with

1:16:41lots of um other public bodies to be able to access their parking so we have

1:16:46reached out to a number of the community faith groups in the downtown as well as

1:16:51the school board um part of the challenge is is developing an appropriate

1:16:56agreement with those facilities it would allow us to access them but it is

1:17:00certainly something that we always look at thank you i've got now counselor

1:17:05downer followed by counselor two thank you so i want to go back to something

1:17:11a bit of what counselor rala was talking about that maybe i'd like to hear about

1:17:15if you're looking at other um other municipalities with free parking is

1:17:21is what's been a long-standing issue is the employees and the shop owners using

1:17:28the downtown parking spots i mean they lobbied heavy to get the free parking

1:17:32and then they started using it themselves for long hours and we've had to implement

1:17:37a number of enforcement uh tools to in order to deal with that how have we seen

1:17:45that situation uh significantly improved um over the last couple of years because

1:17:51that's something that i want to take into consideration at the whole point

1:17:54the free parking was for um people who wanted to shop or use the downtown in

1:18:00order to use those free spaces and that for a long time that wasn't the case so i

1:18:05just want to see what the situation is with that and um going forward and maybe

1:18:11looking at other municipalities and how they're dealing with that if they have free parking

1:18:24to counselor downer it's the god for general manager the operations department we have seen

1:18:28some improvement with some of the initiatives that we've done over the

1:18:31past couple of years but there is still a lot of store owners and staff that utilize the

1:18:40on-street parking and my understanding is that too that you know they they'll park for the two

1:18:46hours and then they move to another spot so that it can um avoid the tickets is that what we're seeing

1:18:54as well to counselor downer um the current restriction within the downtown is treated

1:19:02like a lot you're only allowed to park two hours on any street within the downtown you know in a

1:19:08period so that they would be in force if they moved so just a quick follow-up comment on that

1:19:14that that you know seeing is that you know it's still an issue you know it's sort of an abuse of

1:19:20of that privilege of having free downtown parking so that's going to weigh into my decision about

1:19:28and the options about having free parking downtown it may be better just to charge something and

1:19:34have that dealt with in a different way it's still coming and that gets us also to the idea

1:19:40portion we are hearing from the dgba we're also have some survey questions around if there were

1:19:46shared parking permits if there if there are certain improvements were made to the appearance

1:19:51or the perception of parking in the park aides if there are certain things that would allow

1:19:56some of the people who are working in the downtown to move into those spaces um whether that

1:20:00I would then free up those on-street spaces.

1:20:02So that's what we hope to get to our idea discussion

1:20:04about things you might say,

1:20:06what if this could happen or that could happen

1:20:07with that change the situation?

1:20:10So I think it's a really important question

1:20:11that you've raised and hopefully for the discussion

1:20:13we can hear some ideas as to how to shift that as well

1:20:16beyond an important enforcement.

1:20:19I think next is Councillor Chu followed by Councillor Ault

1:20:22and then of course those that are in the room as well.

1:20:27Okay, so Councillor Chu then Councillor Ault.

1:20:32I guess first thank you for the great presentation.

1:20:35I wish I was there in person to people to hear from you guys.

1:20:40But yeah, I just kind of wanted to paint a picture

1:20:42and see if you guys can offer some commentary

1:20:45on how we can kind of strengthen like the notion

1:20:49that the downtown's becoming a major,

1:20:53like a major transit station area.

1:20:55And what are the implications of all day two-way go

1:20:59coming online and how is that being used

1:21:01as a comparator just evaluate our downtown parking strategy?

1:21:06Like I think in general, it would be great to find consistency

1:21:12and how we're planning for the future

1:21:14and eliminating the need for parking.

1:21:18But at the same time too, I think we're still at a point

1:21:20where we need to be agile and be flexible as well.

1:21:24Like during COVID and just groups really asking

1:21:30for the free parking as Kathy had alluded to.

1:21:34So I'm curious to see your thoughts

1:21:37and how we can kind of align more of what we're doing now

1:21:41with the transportation master plan and just,

1:21:45yeah, like what are I guess the,

1:21:47in like a very short summary,

1:21:49what are the short, medium and long-term goals

1:21:52that we can really prioritize?

1:21:55So just a general statement and preamble, I guess.

1:22:01Yeah, sure.

1:22:02It's Ralph Bond from VA Group.

1:22:04With the all-way go, I think we need to be careful of it.

1:22:12It's a great feature.

1:22:13It's something that Guelph needs,

1:22:16but I don't think we want people driving downtown to park

1:22:22to take the all-way go service.

1:22:24It will end up where we've seen this happens.

1:22:26It just competes with that parking

1:22:28that everybody else thinks they need.

1:22:29So I think what I see happening in areas

1:22:33where that's an issue is to really concentrate

1:22:36on those people who are wanting to access the GO station

1:22:40to get to Toronto or Kitchener or wherever they're headed

1:22:44is to make sure that there's transit measures,

1:22:48good transit service for those people

1:22:51to make sure that everything is as much as possible is done

1:22:56so that they don't drive downtown.

1:22:59And I don't think we should be encouraging them.

1:23:02I think it is important to mesh the parking strategies

1:23:06with the TMP.

1:23:09And in some municipalities where we've worked,

1:23:13there's been some interesting ideas that go hand in hand

1:23:16because if you're looking at it as a complete transportation

1:23:22picture, you can try to make the decision.

1:23:25Do I spend $50,000 a parking space

1:23:28or do I spend less than that

1:23:32or maybe $50,000 improving transit?

1:23:34But the question is what kind of improvement

1:23:38would be necessary to get people to switch?

1:23:40And I think some of the municipalities

1:23:44where we've worked on both those factors,

1:23:46they really zero in on that.

1:23:48And the parking and the transit people come together

1:23:52and work as a team to try to sort that out.

1:23:56And it can actually happen in small towns quite well.

1:24:03I know we're running short on time,

1:24:04but in St. John New Brunswick where we did a study,

1:24:07we ended up joining the Transit and Parking Commission

1:24:09together because they worked so well

1:24:11to actually deliver transit services

1:24:14that reduced parking demand in the downtown.

1:24:17And so sometimes they had separate commissions,

1:24:21they weren't even part of the city.

1:24:23When we were finished, they said,

1:24:24oh, wait, we never thought transit and parking,

1:24:26we always thought they were at loggerheads.

1:24:28But in fact, if you figure out how to mesh them together

1:24:31so that they work cooperatively, it works out very well.

1:24:35So it may be something we look at here.

1:24:37It's easier said than done, but I think it's very important

1:24:41and we'll take a look at that.

1:24:43And just a quick follow-up, if I may.

1:24:47You mentioned St. John's was, in your opinion,

1:24:50a successful example of how they were able

1:24:52to find synergies between the Parking Commission

1:24:56and the transit.

1:24:58Are there any other municipalities in your view

1:25:00that's mid-sized like Guelph that you would say

1:25:03have been very proactive and have really set

1:25:05like a strong expectation for the public

1:25:07to understand a downtown's major transportation area?

1:25:12And we need to be strategic with how we allocate

1:25:16our resources to envisioning that future vision.

1:25:22Yeah, another example would be Kingston,

1:25:25where we were asked to the downtown hospital

1:25:30was suggesting they needed a new parking garage

1:25:34and the lady in charge of parking and transit at the time.

1:25:38And Kingston said, well, we can either build a garage

1:25:41or we're investing all this money in express transit buses.

1:25:44Can we figure out how much of that problem we can solve

1:25:48instead of building a garage that'll lose

1:25:50a million dollars a year?

1:25:51So what we actually did was work with the hospital,

1:25:55get all the postal cold information for all the employees

1:25:59and we could see which employees lived

1:26:01within a five or 10 minute walk

1:26:03of the new express bus routes.

1:26:05And then we drilled down with the hospital

1:26:08about what is it we need to do to convince those employees.

1:26:12So it was a very focused approach

1:26:14as opposed to a shotgun approach

1:26:15about just everybody should take transit.

1:26:18You concentrate on the ones that you know

1:26:20are close walking distance,

1:26:22figure out what you need to do to get them to take transit.

1:26:26And we came up with some programs with the city

1:26:29to improve the transit service even more

1:26:33on the express bus routes.

1:26:35There was even suggestions of

1:26:36if you did better transit shelters

1:26:38so they don't have to stand in the rain.

1:26:40Me as a hospital employee,

1:26:42I might actually take transit instead of driving.

1:26:45And there was a whole range of those things.

1:26:47And so we were able to convince the hospital,

1:26:51let's try these things first and see how it goes

1:26:54before we rush out and build a parking garage.

1:26:57And it's still an ongoing effort,

1:27:01but it generally reduced the parking demand

1:27:05enough to delay at least the need for a parking garage.

1:27:09And we're hoping that given enough time in the future,

1:27:12we may not need to build as big a garage

1:27:14or any or an addition to the existing garage,

1:27:17I should say, or any more.

1:27:19So I think you really need to have that kind

1:27:21of focused approach rather than just saying,

1:27:23everybody take transit.

1:27:24You need to understand who they are, where they live,

1:27:27where they're trying to get to,

1:27:29and see if you can do something on a specific group of people

1:27:33that are more susceptible to take transit

1:27:36than just the shotgun approach.

1:27:38And it's not easy, but where we've done that,

1:27:42it's actually worked pretty well.

1:27:45Thank you so much.

1:27:47So I have five other speakers for questions.

1:27:50And then while you're posing those questions,

1:27:53I just wanted you to think about what was mentioned

1:27:56was payment and lieu policies,

1:27:58looking at maybe shifting into the garages or parquets

1:28:02for maybe some complimentary parking.

1:28:04Some of those financing strategies,

1:28:06if we come to our discussion would be really great to hear

1:28:08that we'll probably have about 30 minutes

1:28:10to have that discussion.

1:28:11So next I have Councillor Ault and Councillor Billings.

1:28:15And then for those who attended in person,

1:28:17you get to go after that.

1:28:18So Councillor Ault, please.

1:28:21Thank you very much.

1:28:24I'm gonna start off with the payment and lieu

1:28:26because that was one of the questions that I had.

1:28:28Payment and lieu, is that an annual payment,

1:28:32at least one time, and of those three or maybe others,

1:28:37what is the best practice?

1:28:43Ralph Bond is coming back to the mic.

1:28:48The payment and lieu is typically a one time payment.

1:28:51And it's never the full cost of,

1:28:54or rarely the full cost of a parking space.

1:28:56So if you thought it was 50,000, you would say 25,000

1:29:01because they don't own the space.

1:29:03They're just paying for part of it.

1:29:05And you ask for the money upfront.

1:29:07That's typically the way it works.

1:29:10And would that be considered best practice,

1:29:12or is that just being convention?

1:29:17No, I think that's best practice from what we've seen.

1:29:22I think the important part of the best practice

1:29:25is not charging too much

1:29:26because you just don't get the take up then.

1:29:28The developers either don't build anything.

1:29:30They can go somewhere else

1:29:33because you need to keep the price at the right level

1:29:37to encourage them to use it.

1:29:40Thank you.

1:29:41Now I've got about three or four questions.

1:29:44I believe that you've mentioned

1:29:46about a 1700 parking spot ratio on average in a downtown,

1:29:51which in my estimation is with,

1:29:55when you include the university population,

1:29:57is about a parking spot per 100 residents of the community.

1:30:01Is that considered to be an appropriate parking ratio?

1:30:05And would it provide either an incentive or a disincentive

1:30:10for people to come downtown?

1:30:15I think you have to keep the balance.

1:30:19You don't wanna overdo it

1:30:23in terms of having a lot of excess parking

1:30:25because it ends up leading to people

1:30:31reducing parking prices, which isn't helpful to finance it,

1:30:34but it also then encourages more people to drive.

1:30:37So I think it's a combination of the price of parking

1:30:42and the amount of parking.

1:30:43And you try to keep those in balance,

1:30:46but also make use of all of the parking in the area

1:30:49that you possibly can to not overbuild the parking.

1:31:00You're muted, Councillor Ault.

1:31:02You're muted.

1:31:06There we go.

1:31:07Just with regards to those ratios,

1:31:10are there differences in parking ratios for a downtown

1:31:14where the downtown is a predominant core

1:31:16for shopping and other commercial operations

1:31:20versus towns, municipalities that have numerous

1:31:24or some shopping malls and commercial plazas?

1:31:30Yeah, generally the rates in most traditional downtowns,

1:31:34the parking demand rates are quite a bit lower

1:31:39than they are at say equivalent retail

1:31:42in suburban shopping areas.

1:31:44The big differentiator in a downtown

1:31:47is whether there's a lot of office workers

1:31:49that will drive up the demand

1:31:51or a lot of medical facilities,

1:31:53which will then drive up the demand quite a bit.

1:31:56That's all good things to have in a downtown,

1:31:58but it means generally speaking,

1:32:00you'll need a lot more parking

1:32:01than if it's just a traditional retail.

1:32:05And the more restaurants you have

1:32:07and the more demand there'll be as well.

1:32:10Okay.

1:32:11And that will lead me to my second last question.

1:32:15One of my concerns right now with Gwelfand,

1:32:18Councillor Chu did raise this with go,

1:32:21is the assumptions about future use

1:32:23and future need in the downtown,

1:32:25especially if there's any large scale employer

1:32:29and institution, financial, commercial or educational

1:32:32that can be potentially locating down there.

1:32:36The statement was also made

1:32:37that we don't have many jobs downtown.

1:32:39And because of that statement,

1:32:41I'm concerned about future projections

1:32:43and what we mean about not many jobs.

1:32:46I'm not certain that the downtown businesses

1:32:49and commercial institutions

1:32:50wouldn't disagree with that assumption.

1:32:53So I want to hear about that

1:32:54because our downtown will be evolving very quickly

1:32:58with residences and with commercial and other uses.

1:33:02This is something that I want to make certain

1:33:04we are truly future ready.

1:33:08Yeah, I think with the cooperators leaving,

1:33:11it'll free up parking to accommodate the new uses

1:33:17that people are looking at in that area

1:33:20because it'll be a similar type of demand.

1:33:27And I think that's the,

1:33:30we need to try to make sure that there's enough parking

1:33:33to accommodate those types of things if they happen.

1:33:36But again, not overdo it,

1:33:38but make sure that there's enough there.

1:33:40So I think we're gonna be fortunate there

1:33:43that the new use that might go in there

1:33:46will probably generate a similar amount of demand

1:33:49than what was there before.

1:33:50So they'll just switch over into that

1:33:53and use the same parking that was previously being used.

1:33:57One very final particular question.

1:34:00I don't recall hearing about the inevitable electrification

1:34:05of vehicles on large scale basis.

1:34:09What kind of impact does that have

1:34:10on the cost of parking spots?

1:34:12What kind of anticipated need is there?

1:34:14And is there a ratio of parking spots to charges

1:34:18that we need to consider in establishing our parking matrix?

1:34:26I think in the longterm,

1:34:27there's ratios that people are considering

1:34:32anywhere from 20 to 50%.

1:34:34But what we've been seeing in the short term is

1:34:39people have been putting in the chargers

1:34:41and they're not getting used.

1:34:42And so it's that pace of change thing again.

1:34:44You need to, if you're building new parking,

1:34:46you need to make sure you've designed it

1:34:48to easily add the chargers

1:34:50as opposed to having to go back and retrofit it.

1:34:53Because it's complicated and more expensive,

1:34:55but don't actually put the chargers in

1:34:57until you really see that the demand is there.

1:35:03It's the question is how many chargers you need to have.

1:35:08It's not going to reduce the demand for parking

1:35:10because there's still vehicles that people will drive.

1:35:12It's just that question of when the chargers should go in.

1:35:17Just one final comment then.

1:35:18What I'm hearing you say that in some sense

1:35:21is Guelph is in a fortunate position

1:35:23because we are looking at downtown revitalization

1:35:26and changes improvements in our infrastructure.

1:35:29It would be incumbent upon us then to actually look

1:35:34at putting that infrastructure in at the same time,

1:35:37I would imagine.

1:35:38Would you suggest that that be the case?

1:35:41Yeah, I think so where it's appropriate.

1:35:44There may be cases where it might make sense to delay it,

1:35:47but in new garages that we've been working on,

1:35:52it clearly is much preferable to put in the infrastructure,

1:35:55the substations, the conduit and all of those things,

1:36:00but not the actual chargers.

1:36:03And it saves money and disruption later.

1:36:06Sorry, one last particular,

1:36:08and that is what about on-street parking and electric chargers?

1:36:14Some municipalities are looking at that,

1:36:17but they generally don't seem to be getting used as much

1:36:21and they get a lot more misuse

1:36:24because of again that competition.

1:36:26Everybody wants to be in the on-street parking space

1:36:28and so you see a lot of people

1:36:30who don't ever intend to use a charger just taking the space.

1:36:34And then somebody shows up with one and they can't use it.

1:36:38So I think it'll evolve eventually,

1:36:42but it's probably better to put them off-street.

1:36:46Thank you very much.

1:36:47Thank you. I have Councillor Billings

1:36:48and then followed by that Councillor Klassen

1:36:51and then Councillor Ararok.

1:36:52Councillor Billings.

1:36:54Okay, so the reports coming back in September

1:36:57was a recommendation in that, buried in that report.

1:37:01Will we get to see the different funding models and options?

1:37:07So for example, the option of reducing the reliance from taxes down to zero

1:37:12so that it is actually the downtown parking is a user-pay model.

1:37:18Will we get to see that?

1:37:19For example, options like,

1:37:21okay, you have the one hour free in the parkades,

1:37:24but then we bring back the cost for the on-street parking.

1:37:27And then that can get us to a full user-pay model

1:37:30and then what would that cost be for the on-street parking?

1:37:34Will we get to see that level of detail

1:37:36in the financial implications for different models and options?

1:37:44Good morning, Councillor Billings.

1:37:44It's Terry Gaman,

1:37:45General Manager of Engineering and Transportation Services.

1:37:49I think these short answers, yes,

1:37:50you're going to see that work through the report as it comes forward,

1:37:53including an analysis on the financial model,

1:37:56the options, the opportunities

1:37:58and sort of what the best recommendation is.

1:38:00Okay.

1:38:01And then also the EV charging stations,

1:38:05say in the parkades, if we put them in.

1:38:10So who pays for that?

1:38:13Are there charging stations where the user puts in a card so they're paying?

1:38:22Councillor Billings, there's currently EV charging in the East, West and Market Parkades.

1:38:27And the company that manages the EV charging within the parkade

1:38:31is a company called Flow, which is an EV charging provider.

1:38:35You have a credit card that you tap when you arrive to charge.

1:38:38So Flow paid for the equipment.

1:38:42They have installed it and the city receives a royalty check every quarter

1:38:46for a portion of the EV charging revenue that has been taken from the charger.

1:38:53Okay. So it's not a cost then to the city to provide these charging stations?

1:39:00No, there is no additional cost to the city to put the charger in.

1:39:03Okay.

1:39:04Thanks. That's good to know.

1:39:10Councillor Klassen.

1:39:12Thank you for the great presentation and all the questions.

1:39:15A lot of my questions have already been answered.

1:39:18I do have one that I'm not sure was touched on.

1:39:21I'm a business owner at Downtown Guelph,

1:39:23so I talked to a lot of other business owners as well.

1:39:25And obviously everyone loves to complain about parking.

1:39:27So one of the so I am, you know, I'm taking this with a tried,

1:39:32trying to take a balanced approach.

1:39:33So I do have two questions.

1:39:35One is I spoke to a number of people, I think between last summer and now,

1:39:40just about the need for like short term parking, like five, 10 minutes.

1:39:45Like I'm thinking about the intersection at Cork and Wyndham.

1:39:49There's a high concentration of businesses and there's a lot of two hour on street parking.

1:39:54So it kind of you end up getting a lot of blocked, like blocked parking spots.

1:40:00And many of the businesses there actually like, you know, stop in.

1:40:04So I'm thinking of Crazy Carrot, previously TD Bank, the print shop,

1:40:09coffee shops where people are just trying to go in and get out.

1:40:12And I know there's a few 15 minute spots,

1:40:15but oftentimes people park in those spots and then walk away.

1:40:18And I'm not really sure how well enforced they are because they are so short term.

1:40:23I'm just wondering with technology and with, you know,

1:40:26I'm not sure if some of these pay options,

1:40:27if it's a possibility to look at some short term, like five minute,

1:40:32just to stop in and grab something.

1:40:35There's also places like along Wilson Street where there's just a higher

1:40:38concentration of like coffee shops.

1:40:40Like I don't need to go sit down, but I do just want to like pop in.

1:40:44And, you know, I know that's why people sometimes circle.

1:40:48And they don't, they're not looking for long term parking.

1:40:51They don't really want to walk far distances.

1:40:54And 15 minutes sometimes I think is a bit too long.

1:40:57So maybe that wasn't a question.

1:40:59But yeah, is that, is that something that we were looking at as part of,

1:41:03of the downtown parking?

1:41:06That's the kind of thing that it was really helpful from a suggestion perspective.

1:41:10Ideas to consider as they go forward.

1:41:12So that's, that kind of fits into our discussion framework.

1:41:15Okay.

1:41:16I can interject here briefly.

1:41:17Councillor Klaas and Steve Anderson, manager of transportation engineering.

1:41:21So yes.

1:41:22And one of the things we're struggling with right now is we really don't have

1:41:26guidance because we have requests for 15 minutes spaces, accessible spaces.

1:41:30We've just talked about EV spaces, right?

1:41:32Everybody wants a specific space for a specific reason.

1:41:34So one of the outcomes of this body of work will be to help kind of, yeah,

1:41:39ratio that what's the appropriate use.

1:41:42And if we do do something radical, like flip, and maybe it's free for two

1:41:47hours in the lot and paid on street, that allows us to look at some different things.

1:41:50So you're going to see recommendations when this comes back in September that

1:41:55we'll hopefully address all that.

1:41:58Okay. Thank you.

1:42:00Appreciate it.

1:42:00And I do have another question and it has to do with a comment that I heard.

1:42:05I was sort of out of the room, so I apologize if this has been addressed.

1:42:08But I was hearing a comment about 40 to 50% of the people downtown Toronto

1:42:12walk to work and there's just a higher concentration of jobs downtown Toronto

1:42:17versus Guelph.

1:42:18And I'm just wondering about, I mean, I'm sure that this is part of it, but

1:42:22are we looking at parking and economic development downtown and what,

1:42:27like, I mean, we're having this conversation.

1:42:29It's great to have this workshop, but are we getting that commercial

1:42:34development required to also have some of these lots?

1:42:37Like I'm just wondering about the economic kind of development portion of things.

1:42:42Like I don't really see a lot of commercial development happening downtown.

1:42:46We're seeing a lot of residential, but a lot of that parking is driven by

1:42:51the people who come down to use the commercial businesses.

1:42:54And I'm just wondering if there's our jobs dropping and the need for parking

1:42:59is going down and there's less businesses.

1:43:03Is the need for parking getting less?

1:43:08One, this is still coming.

1:43:09One of the things that I just want to comment on, we're working with economic

1:43:13development and I've never seen such a collaboration at a city.

1:43:16We've had these internal stakeholder meetings where lots of information.

1:43:19So part of that is sharing all of the planning and development forecasts as well

1:43:23to really ground this study.

1:43:24And that's that will be really helpful in understanding the parameters.

1:43:28I'm not sure if it looks like Steve.

1:43:30I'm not sure who was speaking.

1:43:31Sure. Again, similarly to the last, yeah, we're well connected with economic development.

1:43:39Yeah, we've probably talked to the more in the last year than ever, right?

1:43:43So we're well connected.

1:43:44And again, not only economic development, transit, operations,

1:43:49planning all the pieces that touch this, we're working together and you'll see

1:43:54that when we come forward in September.

1:43:59Thank you.

1:44:00Mr. Mayor, I may just jump in on this one too, because so I love that question

1:44:05because it gets us to strategy and boldness and we should use parking to drive

1:44:10development and not just residential development.

1:44:13You want to downtown this vibrant, you have to have commercial and you have

1:44:18to have the residential, but that's the sort of direction that we need.

1:44:22Of course, we all work together behind the scenes, but we should be driving

1:44:26use parking to drive it.

1:44:29You know, because, you know, there's a building across from City Hall right now

1:44:32that's sitting empty because parking is a restriction.

1:44:36And the first floor commercial will be empty because they can't get to residential.

1:44:41So I keep coming back to I love that question because use parking

1:44:45to drive development in our downtown and then those those tax dollars that come in,

1:44:51you know, it's a bit of a circular discussion, then they come in.

1:44:53And then what the other part of that is they're also doing things in the

1:44:56downtown where they're spending money.

1:44:58So that economic impact is so helpful to all of this as well.

1:45:02So normally I sit and be quiet on these things, but that question really drives

1:45:06the strategy versus in the weeds.

1:45:09And sometimes you've got to get in the weeds cleared out, but get to that strategy

1:45:12question and that should be your expectation for all city staff to make that

1:45:17happen in the downtown. Thanks, Mr. Mayor.

1:45:22Thank you. I then would have Councillor Roark followed by Maric Athery.

1:45:26Thank you very much. I have a couple of questions.

1:45:29First one was on the assumptions because I think we need to nail those down

1:45:33in order to have policy and recommendations that are sort of grounded in truth.

1:45:40So pages 12 and 22 of the slide deck talk about assumptions from work from home

1:45:46and hybrid.

1:45:48And I'm wondering to what extent that's counterbalanced by our rapid growth

1:45:53and whether the assumptions are on the previous, like last year's population

1:45:59targets or the new ones.

1:46:01We know that there will be potential modifications to OPA 80 in terms of

1:46:06impacting population downtown.

1:46:08So I'd like to know, like, is that all incorporated?

1:46:10And I want to come back to the response on the GO train that Councillor Chu raised.

1:46:15While I don't think we want to encourage people to to park in the park aid,

1:46:20I think they will.

1:46:21And people from the surrounding area and it's tied to the race to zero, right?

1:46:26People in the surrounding areas who believe that it is a more environmental

1:46:30choice to take the GO train rather than drive will come into downtown Guelph to

1:46:36park or and I'm wondering how the methodology accounts for this.

1:46:41There are signs and parking lots all the way up Gordon Street, all the way down

1:46:45to the south end that say no GO train parking or no GO parking because people

1:46:50will park in a plaza anywhere in the city, hop on transit, come downtown

1:46:56and take the GO train.

1:46:57So I know of people who could not park, take the GO.

1:47:00So now they're driving at Georgetown.

1:47:02It's not as environmentally friendly a choice.

1:47:05So while we don't want to encourage people, we know they're going to.

1:47:08We know they are now and GO is currently providing, I think, six parking spots.

1:47:13And those are currently closed because of construction.

1:47:16So I'm just wondering in your assumptions.

1:47:19How are you showing the counterbalance of the growing population

1:47:23and changes to OPA 80 and the attraction of two way all day.

1:47:27Go.

1:47:31Councillor, this is Jamie's out of the program, and parking.

1:47:34Those are both terrific questions and the questions that we're wrestling with.

1:47:38So we are working very closely with planning to understand the growth

1:47:42projections both for residents downtown for office worker growth.

1:47:47We're very aware of the housing pledge, the impacts I can have downtown.

1:47:50So I think that's part of our messaging is we're probably going to give you two

1:47:55or three different scenarios where we're looking at opportunities to build

1:47:59in that resilience.

1:48:00So as things change, we can pivot and respond to it.

1:48:03So that's not a complete answer for you.

1:48:05But I think by the time we get to the report, we'll have a couple of different

1:48:08ways we think we might approach that so that we can build in some of that resiliency.

1:48:13And I agree with you, the question around all day, two way go service downtown.

1:48:18I do expect that people will continue to drive downtown and want to park.

1:48:22And again, it's a very complex thing that I think there are lots of levels

1:48:26of government where we could we could have some advocacy.

1:48:29Guelph is considered almost the perfect transit hub.

1:48:33So Metrolinx's approach is that they want to drive use of transit transit hubs

1:48:39are go services right next door to it.

1:48:41It's sort of ideal.

1:48:43Metrolinx themselves are not committing to building parking.

1:48:47So it's a challenge that I think the city needs to think about.

1:48:50How do we support those who are going to come down and park regardless?

1:48:53But are there other options that we could provide alternate ways to get downtown

1:48:58that you could still get to the go service and continue to do so?

1:49:01And I think that's where it's very important that we say really connected

1:49:04to the work that the Transportation Master Plan and TDM is really trying

1:49:09to focus on providing those alternatives.

1:49:10So that is a long way to answer.

1:49:13You have keyed in on a very difficult question that we try and build in.

1:49:18And I think our approach is to figure out how to build in resilience

1:49:20so that we can pivot as things change.

1:49:22Great. Thanks.

1:49:23My next question is around methodology.

1:49:26So I'm wondering how you intend to balance perspectives.

1:49:30And I'm going to be really straight with you.

1:49:32There are some very active lobby groups that you'll meet with that will

1:49:36submit a lot of, you know, feedback online, etc.

1:49:42But traditionally, there are other groups that are underrepresented in consultations.

1:49:47And those are the folks who are, you know, busy running their businesses

1:49:50or people who come downtown for medical appointments, right?

1:49:54And they have somebody drive them and they may not know that the survey is going on.

1:50:01They they're just busy living their lives, right, doing other things.

1:50:05So how are we going to get that perspective?

1:50:07And of course, councillors can help you with that.

1:50:09How do you balance out those active lobby groups?

1:50:13I'm wondering if you're going to also talk to the Economic Development

1:50:16Tourism Advisory Group.

1:50:17I see that you talk to the Accessibility Committee, which is important,

1:50:20but there's also another advisory group that can give you a different lens.

1:50:24And I'm wondering if you're going to be speaking with organizations that left

1:50:27downtown, why?

1:50:30So we know that there's some new businesses in the Hamlin Business Park that moved.

1:50:33And I'm hearing from them often it's about parking, parking for their staff,

1:50:37parking for their clients.

1:50:39And so are you are you talking of those folks in the methodology of the research?

1:50:47So that's not like an engagement question, but I know I'm sure on the methodology

1:50:51others will jump in on the engagement piece.

1:50:54It's one of the goals from the beginning was to ensure

1:50:57the broad conversation and that we do reach out to individuals.

1:51:00And we know that people participate differently.

1:51:02Some may fill it in a survey.

1:51:04And so the survey has just been launched on Monday, 36 hours later, 700 people.

1:51:09We have even got the tactics, which are being rolled out by your communication.

1:51:13So they are going to the doctors are going to the community health center.

1:51:16They're looking at having flyers posted the scan code.

1:51:21So that we want to see that we've also embedded questions in there to have people

1:51:25provide what why did they come downtown or what their what their timeline would be

1:51:30for coming downtown, what they need from the whole in terms of how to get there,

1:51:33both from a transit and parking perspective.

1:51:36And in terms of the stakeholder meetings, that the the active tours,

1:51:39obviously we'll certainly look at that.

1:51:41I think it's really these informal interviews have been very constructive

1:51:44because it gives a top train for a small group discussion for them to identify,

1:51:49you know, their experience, challenges and opportunities.

1:51:52So we've been looking at all of them in terms of tell us what you're dealing with now.

1:51:56Tell us those.

1:51:57Also tells the opportunities, give us some ideas.

1:52:00Because often in engagement, we only hear what isn't working

1:52:03and we want to hear what could work or we could expand on.

1:52:06So in terms of the engagement for April, we have the survey.

1:52:09We have a virtual presentation.

1:52:11We want to have a workshop for this week of May with downtown stakeholders,

1:52:14including CHC and a community health group and others to try and have more of a balanced

1:52:19conversation to your point.

1:52:20And then in June, follow up with more consultation in terms of drop in session,

1:52:25a virtual session and also a follow up survey on the strategy.

1:52:28So the feedback piece is really critical and how we look at those trends and goals.

1:52:32It has to work for everyone.

1:52:34And to quote the gentleman to my left, in terms of that bold vision

1:52:38and how you get there in terms of parking and even our words of driving change,

1:52:43but getting those ideas broadly is really critical to the work here.

1:52:46So that's the engagement piece of it.

1:52:48And I certainly look to others like Terry would like to say something further.

1:52:53Thank you, sir.

1:52:53And Councillor Rockett, Terry Gaman, General Manager, Engineering and Transportation Services.

1:52:57The other piece you're hitting on that theme of balance for us, right?

1:52:59And I think we sort of presented that near the beginning.

1:53:02We know the community has engaged with us through the Transportation Master Plan.

1:53:06What are those community values?

1:53:07Right. And we said those out loud at the beginning of the presentation.

1:53:09So we know we need to strike the right balance between all of those council approved

1:53:13strategies, all of the all of the community feedback we've received

1:53:16through that guiding document, which is our TMP.

1:53:19And so that will also be a part of how we shape

1:53:22our recommendations around what you're getting at.

1:53:25Great. Thank you.

1:53:26And the last question is around timeline.

1:53:30So some of what I've heard from downtown business owners is

1:53:36and and from feedback from people who are just looking for parking.

1:53:39They can't get a monthly pass because all but the

1:53:43Market Street Parkade are showing full for a monthly pass, right?

1:53:46Which makes a full day of parking really prohibitive and a business that might want to

1:53:51buy a monthly pass to be able to say to their maybe they don't have a lot of

1:53:56parking at their location.

1:53:58So they're, you know, in a mixed use building, for example,

1:54:01they can't buy a monthly pass to then say to their client, use my pass.

1:54:05So we're sharing of that space because the lots are full,

1:54:10but they're full because somebody has figured out and, you know, that's smart.

1:54:15Even if I only go to Toronto five times a month, it's cheaper to buy

1:54:20the monthly pass than it is to do the daily rate at $30.

1:54:26And I raise this at budget.

1:54:27So how do we figure out how to better utilize that space?

1:54:32Because visually, I mean, obviously people are not using their parking

1:54:36pass every day. Those parades are not full.

1:54:39And yet there are other people who have a real need to be using that space at a

1:54:44cheaper rate and and they can't do that.

1:54:47So my question around timeline is, what are we looking at right now to help

1:54:51those folks who want to take the GO train or they they want a monthly pass

1:54:56and they can't get one?

1:54:58And what are we doing in the longer term?

1:55:01So how does how does the timeline for this plan play out?

1:55:07I was just going to add that in terms of the strategies,

1:55:09we were hearing from some of the stakeholders having shared parking

1:55:13permits would go a long way between employees that therefore they can

1:55:17maximize the use of that between employees so that that actually gets used

1:55:20and reduces the cost.

1:55:22And certainly that's something that is here and as a strategy to to consider.

1:55:29Yeah, Councillor Ruck, I'm happy to talk about it.

1:55:31It's one of those. It's certainly been a focus in our group for the last sort

1:55:35of six months to figure out what what a shared parking pass could look like.

1:55:40So certainly I'm aware of it.

1:55:43We work with lots of businesses downtown that are trying to attract new office

1:55:47workers, so working closely with commercial real estate brokers.

1:55:52We're sort of developing ways that that can happen.

1:55:54So in the very, very near term, we're certainly working on it right now.

1:55:58By the time the report comes forward, we will have some recommendations about

1:56:02how we're going to change some of that.

1:56:05We want to make sure that we're striking a balance by continuing to having

1:56:09transient spots available in the park.

1:56:10I don't want to completely fill them with permit holders.

1:56:13Where are some options for permits?

1:56:17The piece that's the complexity for us is building that into the financial model.

1:56:21So once we start sharing permits, what are the implications about

1:56:25a reduced revenue? Because now three people can use the same permit.

1:56:28It used to be three subscriptions. Now it's one.

1:56:32What does that look for? Day use?

1:56:33So there's a little bit of complexity as we're working through the financial model

1:56:36and what that's going to look like.

1:56:37But when we come forward in September, we'll have a couple of options for you

1:56:41about here are some ways we might restructure how people use and access

1:56:45the off street facilities and how they would pay for those.

1:56:49OK, thank you.

1:56:50And the example I'm thinking of is a hair salon and a restaurant.

1:56:54So it's not just about their staff, but it would be important to talk to businesses

1:56:58about are they having trouble attracting and retaining staff?

1:57:02Because not everyone will be on a bus line.

1:57:04Not everybody will have that that convenience necessarily.

1:57:07So I think that's an important piece.

1:57:08So I have other questions that I can pop into an email and send to you.

1:57:14But I I'll just state my bent because there's no way it's coming back.

1:57:18The preliminary thinking I think is our official plan does seek out

1:57:23a lot of commercial downtown and office based downtown and major employers

1:57:27downtown. And I think it's important that we provide sufficient parking.

1:57:33It can always be converted later.

1:57:35It can include bike parking, but we can't do the reverse.

1:57:39And clearly this is a it's a challenge for people.

1:57:44And it won't be less expensive in the future.

1:57:46So I'm looking forward to what you come back with in September,

1:57:50because I think it's a critical issue for economic development, for tourism

1:57:55and for residents downtown to have some options.

1:57:59So, Mayor Guthrie, I have you as the last person with questions.

1:58:02And I appreciate we've had discussion within the questions.

1:58:05And it was a note passed to me that if councillors have other questions,

1:58:09there's no doubt you do.

1:58:10And ideas if we wrap at noon or 12 15, if the mayor suggests we go till 12

1:58:1515, they could be sent to Terry Gaman and then he would in turn that they get

1:58:19circulated to the team.

1:58:21Mayor Guthrie, your questions or comments?

1:58:24Certainly. Well, I think if I could just run it by my colleagues on council,

1:58:28but also in the room, just to take a pulse check for a moment.

1:58:32We've been working our way through every councillor and about to be myself

1:58:36in regards to questions, because we said, hey, questions, questions.

1:58:40So I think there might be some people, including myself, that have a couple

1:58:43questions and then wanted to give sort of a very quick statement each,

1:58:49or maybe not everyone has one about sort of, I think you threw out a question

1:58:53like how bold do you want to be?

1:58:55Right. I think that might be actually good feedback to hear right now from a

1:59:00feedback or a comment.

1:59:02And so I would just ask, is everyone okay if we, if we do all, you know,

1:59:08you got maybe two or three minutes with me, I promise and questions and maybe

1:59:12one minute of a comment, if we all stick to one minute of a comment each

1:59:16as a takeaway for staff, because this is the point of this workshop,

1:59:21we could definitely be out of here by 1215.

1:59:23Is that, is that seem reasonable with everyone?

1:59:25I see in this room, lots of heads shaking as thumbs up online from everybody.

1:59:30OK, not Linda, unfortunately, but but there is there is, you know,

1:59:36a good thumbs up from everyone on that.

1:59:37So I think that's what we'll try to do.

1:59:40And of course, as was said, what is known, we can send in tons of questions

1:59:45and feedback or whatever afterwards as we move through this process.

1:59:49So so I will do my couple of quick questions.

1:59:52I will I'll give you my comments then right after. OK, so I'm done.

1:59:55And then we can we can we can we can move on.

1:59:58You can you can choose maybe go.

2:00:00reverse order or something for those that want to maybe leave you and stop with a comment.

2:00:07My first question is, is transit and parking working together maybe not in the formal sense

2:00:16of how the department is set up as you described Ralph, but in this process to date, is parking

2:00:26and transit working together as you described already?

2:00:30It's America 3, Steve Anderson here. Yes.

2:00:34Good. I will give you a check mark beside that one on my list. Perfect. All right. And

2:00:41my second question is, how is this potentially going to intersect with a less car downtown

2:00:55vibe that has to have a discussion with council moving forward on a vision of closed streets,

2:01:07patios, events, tourism. How is this, how does that intersect?

2:01:17To America 3, Steve Anderson again. We're very much aware through the downtown revitalization

2:01:25and the patio program that certainly our on street inventory is going to be significantly

2:01:29impacted over the next couple of years. So those are all based in our assumptions and

2:01:34our modeling is to how we can handle parking. And again, it's an absolutely wonderful opportunity

2:01:41if we're having a significant event downtown that's closed off streets. We have partnership

2:01:46with the sponsors for a golf storm and events. So there's all sorts of opportunities to bring

2:01:54people downtown that doesn't necessitate everyone necessarily driving themselves downtown. We do

2:02:00acknowledge though that certainly one of the important piece of feedback we heard from the

2:02:04accessibility group is, you know, there's, there's significance to some proximity when it comes to

2:02:13accessibility. So that's, that's one thing we're going to work through again. But overall, there's

2:02:20lots of ways to bring people downtown where they don't have to drive themselves.

2:02:25Okay, thank you. And my last question is when is September, September is where you're aiming

2:02:35for a decision. That's great. But there's housing residential conversations happening in our

2:02:46downtown core right now. And where I'm getting a little bit concerned is hearing about potential

2:02:52residential developments that are potentially looking for less parking as an example. And yet

2:03:00we are like, Oh, well, you got to wait until September. I can think of one here on this street.

2:03:07I can think of windmill as an example come into Baker. What, what are they talking about? I have

2:03:11no idea. So as you're waiting for a September decision moment, is the culture here at City Hall

2:03:23going to be one of trying to work through without that decision being made, trying to get to yes,

2:03:32or opportunities on existing development opportunities that are in the downtown core,

2:03:40specific to residential because those are the only ones I'm thinking of right now.

2:03:45So through you, Mr. to you, Mr. Mayor. So there are a lot of big plans that are have not been

2:03:53finalized just yet. We've got this one, we've got our OP that's still out there with Bill 23 that

2:03:59showed up we have that the downtown revitalization is a lot going on in terms of finalizing. But

2:04:08what we are already doing are having those discussions that look to the future. Where are

2:04:13we heading? What is the trend? We can't stick to what we have necessarily right now that's officially

2:04:20in place to be able to implement things and try and incorporate that intensification in the

2:04:26downtown. So we are looking forward to where we might be heading. So we're pushing our edges a

2:04:33little bit, getting to yes. But at the same time, it would be really helpful if we did have a policy

2:04:40on how we're going to treat downtown because then we don't have to fight and argue about it all the

2:04:43time or have to be unsure about it. We can have some clear direction on what that looks like as we

2:04:50get more intensification in the downtown and other areas of the city as well. Okay, that's perfect.

2:04:57All right, my quick comments then. I want us to be bold. I do not want to plan the future fully

2:05:05around the automobile at all. In fact, it's poor land use planning to always be looking for spots

2:05:15for personal vehicles. So from a residential point of view and a commercial point of view,

2:05:23and event parking point of view, my bent is towards being bold and not trying to overly

2:05:32accommodate the personal automobile within our downtown core. My second comment is,

2:05:40I believe that we have lost millions of dollars in on-street parking paid over the last several

2:05:48years. I personally was not here during the time for that decision. So I just want to say that I

2:05:54think it was not a good decision that was made back then. And we've lost millions and millions of

2:05:58dollars that could have gone towards infrastructure for parking. I also think it will help with the

2:06:04demand. I'm open to hearing all financial options, of course, but I just want to say my bent on the

2:06:11finances part of it is that there is still abuse being happening in the downtown in regards to

2:06:19the free parking. And I don't think it's working. However, I will say there could be an element of

2:06:26lack of enforcement on that part that is not helping with the turnover rate that's required for

2:06:32some of the parking that I'm seeing downtown and those issues. And I just want to say one

2:06:43extra comment. I really appreciate how, let me just put it this way, I was really looking to be

2:06:51quite overly bold in my statements here today, but you framed this presentation very well right

2:06:57from the start about sort of there is a Guelph lens here that we have to look at it. And you

2:07:05challenged me on that. So I appreciate that, that I am very open to any and all sort of options as

2:07:11it comes back. But my overarching theme as a takeaway is we cannot do good planning within our

2:07:21downtown around the personal automobile anymore. It is terrible land use planning. And I would

2:07:29really like to see how we can intersect that with more investments in transit, active transportation

2:07:36options versus accommodating the private automobile. That's my take. Very open to hearing what comes

2:07:44back next. Okay, you can go to the next. Can I go to Councillor Caten? I'm just going to go

2:07:50through the list here and some random order. Councillor Caten, your ideas? Yes. So my

2:07:57back into equity, I was kind of inspired by something that Councillor Rourke said. And I was

2:08:03just wondering if there was a way to support our nonprofits, like Charles and other groups that

2:08:09have volunteer bases and giving them kind of dedicated during business hour on street parking

2:08:16options and having other options be paid on street, but for groups that are providing a

2:08:25service that help the downtown and benefit the downtown, giving them basically a discount or

2:08:33a cost savings or something like that to encourage them to continue with their operations. And that's

2:08:39just something I kind of like you all to have as a takeaway. That's all. Thanks. Thank you.

2:08:45Councillor Chu, do you have a further comment or a bold idea you'd like considered?

2:08:54Yeah, no. Great discussion. I think if we can be bold as well with how we treat the downtown as

2:09:04an MTSA, I think that would alleviate a lot of the pressure in our mature neighborhoods regarding

2:09:10parking. So yeah, let's just be consistent with our plans and just align a lot of what we're doing

2:09:19to kind of envision that future while also being agile as well to respect our downtown business

2:09:25over here. So yeah, keep up the good work. And thanks for the discussion. Councillor Karen.

2:09:34Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Great discussion so far. For me, I really like the ideas that

2:09:41we're generating about using incentives with employers. So I know of a business in downtown

2:09:50Toronto, they pay their employees five extra dollars per day to take their bikes to work.

2:09:56So incentivizing changes. I also, in terms of input on how we develop parking garages,

2:10:05you know, like the mayor, we can't continue to have single-use parking garages or lots

2:10:13as a land use form. So I'd like to explore using parking lots, whether it's Fountain Street and,

2:10:21you know, Wilson Street was an opportunity lost. We're doing it on Baker Street, but integrating

2:10:28commercial and residential into our municipal parking facilities. I also, from a land use

2:10:35planning perspective, I hate to see high density residential developments where the first one to

2:10:40five stories are parking lots. It does not follow our sept head principles, eyes on the street. It's

2:10:47not an interactive space to prioritize cars over people. So how we architecture, what are really

2:10:55just storage rooms for cars needs to be rethought from an urban design and an architectural lens.

2:11:06And hearing great ideas from my colleagues. And I want to thank you for all the work you're doing.

2:11:10I look forward to changing landscape in our downtown parking ecosystem. I like the word

2:11:16ecosystem when we're talking about this issue. Thank you, Councillor Gowler. And then after

2:11:22that I have Councillor Ault and Councillor Downer. And I'm not sure if anyone else wanted to

2:11:26weigh in. So Councillor Gowler, you next please. Thank you. It was the question of

2:11:33downtown businesses wanting to have passes for their employees and shareable passes was raised.

2:11:40I would love if we could explore time-limited passes so I could buy a pass that was good from

2:11:45like 8 a.m. until 3 p.m. Another one, you know, so that the same spot can be used by someone that

2:11:51is actually living in the downtown and needs it overnight and someone else needs it during the

2:11:56day exploring those options, see what best practices are. I would also love to understand

2:12:06based on your recommendations for the parking requirements, you know, at the beginning of

2:12:12the presentation you said that you needed, we needed potentially another 500 plus parking spaces

2:12:18if we are going to go for less than that, then what do we need to build out in our public transit

2:12:25system? What do we need to build out in our active transportation connections to enable that? So if we

2:12:31want more people to say, you know, one of the big questions was for the GO train, if we want more

2:12:38people to commute rather than drive, then how can we make it easy for people to get to downtown at

2:12:435 in the morning to be able to take that train? I would also ask that you please take the time

2:12:52to engage with people living in the periphery of the downtown. Currently streets, you know, Arthur,

2:13:00Essex, Glasgow, you know, two, three, four, five blocks out get impacted because of folks that

2:13:08work in the downtown or are coming to the downtown, they don't find the parking spot,

2:13:13they're parking out there. If we're going to increase restrictions or I would love that to be

2:13:18a consideration and as well as engagement, I would love your recommendations to also provide

2:13:25recommendations on what we should do with those, you know, the 15-minute walk outside of downtown

2:13:33to manage that parking. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Downer, hold by Councillor Ault.

2:13:43Thank you. I like a lot of what I've heard already. I like that we're going to be,

2:13:50that we need to integrate this within our, with the overall goals of our transportation master plan

2:13:56around transit and inter-regional transit and how we can make that easier for folks to come

2:14:02downtown and get on a train without having to park. So I think that's important. I like the

2:14:10caption loop idea. I know that other municipalities are using that. I see a lot of, like I said, a

2:14:17lot of tension around the charging or not charging downtown and the abuse of the free parking right

2:14:25now. Where I may differ with some of my colleagues is around the peripheral parking issue. I know

2:14:32some are concerned and certainly I don't get it in my neighborhood or we don't have it so much here.

2:14:38We have people parking in our neighborhoods because of the university parking. But I, you know, I

2:14:44have to keep coming back that the street in front of my house is, I don't own it. And it's a community

2:14:54asset. And so I just, I'm not quite there that, you know, we have to stop people from

2:15:00parking out further and, and walking, walking. I mean, I mean, sometimes that's kind of healthy too.

2:15:09So I just sort of, I don't quite see it quite as, quite the same way. I don't have as big an issue.

2:15:18Certainly if my street was completely full, then I guess some, maybe there is, or that

2:15:23may be an issue. But I'd like to sort of have more time to think about and ask to sort of debate

2:15:29that issue and that may come with the whole city parking study we're going to be doing as well.

2:15:35So just some thoughts. All right, thank you. So Councillor Ault, then Councillor Claeson,

2:15:40and then Councillor Oroch. Councillor Ault, I think you're muted.

2:15:54I appreciate what we've done today and I have a few comments from the presentation and more

2:15:58broadly about parking in the downtown and elsewhere. First off, I note Mr. Anderson's comments that

2:16:05everyone wants something with regards to parking. And that is indeed true. And that is what we need

2:16:10to address. We need to balance both wants and needs and future trends, be the accessibility,

2:16:16electric parking for resident short-term parking, future institutional use, go and metro links.

2:16:22I further, I appreciate Councillor Gowler's comments and with respect, don't agree with

2:16:28Councillor Downer's comments regarding peripheral residents being consulted. Streets, while they

2:16:33are indeed community assets and they are not private property, we need to review some of our

2:16:39assumptions regarding parking on adjacent streets. My street, for example, is only three streets

2:16:46away from London Road, which is the boundary of the downtown. It is used oftentimes because 24-hour

2:16:53a day, 365-day a year parking and often cars are there very long term. That's something that is

2:17:00a challenge for things like snow removal, garbage, etc., and does present a problem.

2:17:06More importantly, we do need a policy on downtown that is forward-looking.

2:17:10And we need that for the whole city. Paid parking is something that can be decided by council,

2:17:16but council and the community also need to remember this, that parking is an amenity like roads,

2:17:22and we don't charge people for the cost of road construction or maintenance. We don't have tall

2:17:28roads. And that I'm quite serious when I say that shouldn't be lost. On the other hand,

2:17:33I think paid parking is probably a good idea throughout the city. Whether we pay for parking

2:17:39or not is a policy decision that has both pluses and minuses. I don't know how I feel about it

2:17:43right now, but we've got to ask and answer that question. I do want to thank very much the consultants

2:17:49and staff. This is clearly a good start, but there are miles to go before we park.

2:17:57It could be our new slogan perhaps. Councillor Claeson and then Councillor Rourke.

2:18:04Yeah, thank you for the presentation and I really appreciate all the information.

2:18:08I'm learning a lot still and about the supply and demand, so it's new for me. I think, you know,

2:18:14zooming out, I really see our downtown as a place that needs to be vibrant from a commercial

2:18:22perspective. I know about our downtown revitalization plans and I like that, you know, we're working

2:18:29parking and public transit are working together. I just, I think our downtown needs to be first

2:18:36and foremost an attractive place for people to go to. It needs to have vibrant businesses that

2:18:42draw people downtown and it needs to have businesses in all of the storefronts. I welcome

2:18:48these challenges as a business owner when we're struggling with parking because it means people

2:18:54are coming downtown and using our spaces. I actually fear the opposite of this the most, which,

2:19:01you know, CAO Stuart touched on is we need to bring people downtown and from a strategic

2:19:07perspective. I really want resources to go towards the beautification of our downtown,

2:19:12making sure that as we're redeveloping and revitalizing our streets, it's functional for

2:19:17businesses. So deliveries can be made without, you know, inconveniencing people who are trying to

2:19:24do their shopping, things like that. And I obviously know parking has an important role to play

2:19:30and I really, you know, enjoy the collaborative collaborations that could happen with our towers

2:19:38or underutilized parking lots. I really just see this as an opportunity to work creatively,

2:19:44where we don't have more space. We're going to have to, as you know, look to Europe and what's

2:19:49happening in Europe in some city centers, only electric vehicles or hybrids are allowed in their

2:19:55city centers. You know, is that what 20 years looks like for us, where we're actually moving

2:20:00motorized vehicles out of our city centers? Like I think that's the kind of thing that we need to,

2:20:03like, you know, Cam was saying, we need to stop prioritizing vehicles and start making these

2:20:09downtown's walkable places for people to work, live and play. And that's really, you know, I think

2:20:16parking is just a function of thriving community. And I really want to see all of the businesses

2:20:22downtown fall. I'd rather be talking about like, where are we going to put all these people we

2:20:28don't know what to do, rather than like, well, do we need more parking or not? Like, I think that

2:20:32I'd rather have more of a parking problem than less of one, if that makes sense. Thank you.

2:20:37Thank you. Councillor Averb. Thank you. I think this conversation is very pertinent to the

2:20:45comprehensive zoning bylaw conversation we're going to have later in April. And in that regard,

2:20:50I really support payment in lieu option. And at the same time, I think we need to be cautious

2:20:58because what we are seeing in the applications coming forward is, I don't need to provide

2:21:02outdoor amenity space because the city provides a park nearby. I don't need to provide parking

2:21:07because the city provides active transportation and transit. Well, guess what? The city is the

2:21:13taxpayer. And so if you're going to build housing, then I think you do need to meet some of those

2:21:19minimums. And if you can't, then there needs to be some sort of payment for that. So I think we

2:21:26need to be cautious about that. We need to welcome lots of intensification in the downtown.

2:21:31And at the same time, make sure that the city doesn't bear the responsibility of providing

2:21:37all of those externalities, right? Who absorbs those externalities? The taxpayer does. So I am

2:21:44all for planning for tomorrow, but I think we really need to meet the needs of today. We have

2:21:50a quarter billion dollar, at least investment in transit electrification and expansion. It's

2:21:56going to take 10 years. And the transportation master plan with all of that has a pretty modest

2:22:03goal of a 2% modal shift. So it's not overnight that people are going to stop bringing their

2:22:08vehicles downtown. And I think we need to be realistic. I think we need to encourage people

2:22:15to make the shifts they can when they can. So sometimes situational. So take the bus to the

2:22:20storm game. But another time, if you got a medical appointment and you're not feeling well, guess

2:22:24what? You're going to take a car and you're going to want to park closely because you're not feeling

2:22:29well. I think there's some seasonal considerations. So this is, I absolutely believe that we want to

2:22:35be in a place where it's walkable, et cetera. And at the same time, I'll tell you both my parents

2:22:41at different times had serious mobility issues. It is not easy for people with serious mobility

2:22:47issues to walk the 400 meters to the bus stop and then connect at the university to get to the other

2:22:53end of the platform. They're wiped by the time they get downtown. So especially for those folks,

2:22:59we really do need to be making sure that there's accommodation. So to me, it's a balance in time

2:23:07and it's a balance in responsibility. Thank you. So that would conclude the discussion. And I know

2:23:14it was suggested that if you have follow-up comments or ideas, groups that you think should be

2:23:18consulted, that you would send those to Terry Gaiman, which you have all the contact information.

2:23:26Steve would like to speak as a follow-up. Thanks, Sue. I'll wrap this up because I know we're

2:23:31over time on the overtime. I just again want to put a plug in for the have your say event that's

2:23:37out right now. We have an event on April 13th, a virtual event in the evening that we certainly

2:23:44encourage. It's a complicated topic, but we're going to sort through this. So and then there'll

2:23:51be other engagement events in June. So you can't get away from parking. You can't get away from it.

2:23:57So I just want to appreciate everyone's time today. And I think it's probably time for lunch,

2:24:03but I'll throw that back to the mayor to make that happen. Oh, well, thank you.

2:24:09Is there anything further from staff at all as a commentary before I wrap up? No? All right. Well,

2:24:18I am not going to make lunch happen for everyone just to be very clear. We can go to lunch,

2:24:22but I'm not paying. So thank you very much. And I really do appreciate the conversation. Several

2:24:30of my colleagues said it better than I actually just there's this collaborative,

2:24:35great discussion happening of ideas. I love that. So that's awesome. With that, we'll

2:24:41continue to get feedback if needed. And yes, a big plug to the citizens to do and businesses to do

2:24:46the same thing. I'm looking for a motion to adjourn then, please. All right. Councillor

2:24:52Colassen and Councillor O'Rourke, I'll keep it in the room. I'll take you two to lunch. That's it,

2:24:56though. All right. And anyone against adjournment? Nope. Perfect. All right. Have a great rest of

2:25:04the day. The meeting's over. Have a good...