Heritage Guelph

0:01The Grand River many First Nations, Inuit and MTT people who have come from across Tribal Island called wealth home today.

0:09So next is the disclosure of the culinary interest and the general nature thereof.

0:15I have submitted my form online because I do have a conflict with item number.

0:222.4. Yes, the 37 for stealing that is the consumer for the university wealth, which is my employer. So I will step out of the room at that point and him will be taking over.

0:34Are there any other disclosures from anyone? Nobody on mute online. I'll take that as a no.

0:45So our next item then is the approval of the minutes. So we have the recommendation that the minutes from the October 7, 2024 and October 15, 2024 meetings of the heritage 12th committee be approved.

0:57Is there someone to move that motion? Thank you, Alex a seconder.

1:03Really all those in favor.

1:05Thank you and I think that's everybody online. Thanks everyone.

1:16Alright, into committee items. So the 1st 1 is the Ontario formatory heritage conservation district release of draft plan and guideline with the presentation Stephen.

1:31Thank you, Sarah.

1:42I just want to confirm. I think I can be heard.

1:54Yeah, okay. I just had to unmute myself on my own computer. My poll.

2:00Again, thank you, Sarah. Just this is a bit of an announcement report.

2:05And as you've read in the material.

2:09That the on Friday, November the 1st, last week, a draft of the Ontario heritage.

2:16Sorry, the Ontario reformatory heritage conservation district plan and guidelines was released.

2:23Within the council agenda for the November 13th meeting.

2:28Of council planning and it's released. It's being released for review and comment by council by heritage well and the public.

2:38The November 13th meeting of council is the statutory public meeting in the heritage conservation district process.

2:46At that meeting council will hear public delegations on the draft HCD plan.

2:53They may ask questions for clarification and may identify issues.

2:59The draft of the HCD plan is to be received and it's important to understand that no decisions are to be made at that council meeting at that time.

3:10I want to make sure that Harris golf understands that at the December 2nd meeting of heritage wealth.

3:16The planning staff will bring provide to the committee a summary of the key components of the O R HCD planning guidelines.

3:25And that's the time when we would like to gather any comments that the members may wish to contribute for the before the final planning guidelines is brought back to council for consideration.

3:39I'm happy to answer any questions.

3:41I guess members might have.

3:43Nice.

3:44Thanks even.

3:45Alex has a question on mine.

3:49Thank you.

3:51I guess my first question and it's, it's maybe.

3:56Question in a request I.

3:59When I was looking at the agenda.

4:02So it's, it says that the draft guide and plan has been released, but it wasn't actually in the agenda item is like an attachment.

4:12I guess it.

4:14Given that I'm assuming it's probably a very large document with.

4:18Shouldn't we have also received that attachment as part of this announcement and.

4:24Could we get a copy of the draft guideline to start sort of getting the head start on looking at it.

4:31Through you chair, I'm happy to provide the committee members with a fill link to the council agenda.

4:41I guess maybe I wanted to just to clarify is your question, whether you would want to like a printed copy or just access to the digital version.

4:56I think either is fine. I guess.

4:59Without sounding rude because I just, I was surprised to not see it on the agenda as an attachment.

5:07And.

5:11I, if it's been released to council, but not heritage golf, I'm just a little confused as to why that was the case.

5:19The timing is crucial here where the document may not be available to the public before it's available to council through its agenda.

5:30So the earliest that the committee or or anyone actually would be able to see the document would be as of the 1st of November, which proof post dates or at least the release of the heritage golf agenda.

5:46Was before that gate. So that's why the access has been limited to the November 1st where everyone has access to it.

5:56What the intention of the staff report was in the area to call the agenda was to give, give the committee knowledge that it was coming out.

6:07So, now that it is public and present, I'm happy to provide.

6:12Access to it, like full access to it and even printed copies of required by the committee members.

6:19Right, right. No, that's good. Is that something that could be sent to the full committee?

6:27Today or tomorrow or whatever, like, I know it'll be, it'll probably be an attachment on the December 2nd meeting, but.

6:35I just, if it's already out, I think it'd be great to start getting the head started reading through it at this stage. Right.

6:45And again, maybe just to conclude through the chair, the access is already available through the council agenda, but I'm happy to provide a direct link to an email to the heritage golf members.

6:58All right.

6:59Use of access.

7:00That would be great Stephen. I'd appreciate getting 1, 2.

7:08Any other questions for Stephen?

7:12Thank you. So just a process question. So.

7:20The heritage well sees it on the 2nd.

7:23And then, so this is sort of an issue I've raised before then. So.

7:29When, how is so the final draft.

7:33So the comments and the fun and everything goes into.

7:39You know, staff, I guess it's like a lot of applications to decide what to include or the consultants.

7:47Does that come back to heritage wealth again? Then the final 1 before it goes to council with a recommendation.

7:55That through through the chair to the counselor that that is.

8:02Believe the proper process for.

8:05Yeah, yeah, I think it should come back to the final.

8:08Rendition or whatever not rendition final, not draft.

8:14Final study should come to the committee before it heads to council in case they have any additional comments they want to pass on. That would be my sense.

8:23And it was just my thoughts on it. Great. Thank you.

8:29Sorry, just to piggyback on that. Do you have a sense of when the final would go to.

8:40Council, like.

8:42Will that be Q, like.

8:44So, Q end of Q 1 or started Q 2, like is, or is it farther down the road.

8:51Through the chair, it's heritage planning's.

8:55Expectation that this would be coming back to council in the 1st half of.

9:01So, I think that we're getting we're getting very close to the ending.

9:10Session, I guess you might say, or the final parts of consultation about this final about the current draft. So, I think that we can expect that this would come back to council within that time period.

9:24After the proper consultation has been has been carried out.

9:29Great. Thank you.

9:30There are questions online in the room.

9:40We will move along then to item 2.2, which is advisory committees of council framework update with Dylan at windy.

9:52Thank you so much, madam chair, and thanks to the whole committee for having us here today.

9:56My name is Dylan McMahon. I'm the acting general manager and city clerk at the city of Guelph.

10:01And we are here today heritage Guelph for the 3rd time 3rd and final time as part of the redesigning advisory committees of council projects. So folks who've been on the committee for a while.

10:12We'll be well in tune with this project as it's moved along, but I will spend a couple of minutes today talking about sort of how we got here.

10:19And then a few minutes talking about the specific proposed list of committees.

10:23I would impact heritage Guelph and then we'll have lots of time available for questions.

10:281 minute to share my screen.

10:34I could just get a thumbs up maybe from folks that you can see that.

10:41Good perfect. Thank you.

10:43Okay, so as a, as a quick reminder, the redesign and advisory committees of council project has been going on for the better part of 2 years. It's a project that's been done collaboratively with the university of Guelph.

10:56And the city of Guelph through the Guelph lab.

10:59We finished up phase 1 of the project in November of last year and that was or that phase of the project ended with council's approval of a governance framework for advisory committees.

11:09That governance framework is an important document because for the 1st time.

11:13It answers questions in Guelph about why we have advisory committees, how we measure their effectiveness.

11:19What they do what topics are suitable. It answers all of those questions. So it sort of puts a little bit of a of a guard rail or guidelines in place for committees moving forward.

11:29Once that was approved by council phase 2 of this project became reviewing all 14 of our current advisory committees against that framework.

11:37And against other city policies like the strategic plan and the resources allocated by council to support advisory committees.

11:44Lots of engagement with committee members and then ultimately we come to this final proposal.

11:50As far as engagement just thinking about phase 2.

11:53We went to every single committee earlier this year. We held 2 workshops with chairs and vice chairs.

11:59We did small group sessions with members of council. Of course, we reviewed these recommendations with departmental staff and now we're meeting with all of our advisory committees again this fall.

12:09I think heritage golf is the maybe 5th or 6th committee that we have met with so far. So, all of the.

12:16All of the decisions in this final proposal is informed by this engagement that was conducted throughout the year.

12:23And here it is. So, here's the list at the end of the day, we're looking or proposing.

12:29That we move from 14 advisory committees to 7 advisory committees that is a big reduction. So, obviously it's reducing the number of committees we have in half.

12:38But I would point out just a few things that I think are worth remembering. So the governance framework that council approved last year says that the mandate of an advisory committee.

12:47The advisory committee should be broad enough that there is a volume of content high enough for those committees to meet roughly monthly.

12:56So, many of our 14 current committees have been meeting to maybe 3 times a year. So, while we're reducing the overall number from 14 to 7.

13:05We think the overall amount of engagement and the number of meetings for the advisory committees is going to stay roughly the same actually it may go down a little bit.

13:13But certainly not by half.

13:15So that's worth remembering the 2nd is that we also want to provide support from the city clerk's office to all of our committees under this new proposal in the same way we provide that support to council.

13:25So, we want legislative services staff to be taking minutes producing agendas doing orientation and training with folks on things like the code of conduct.

13:34Open meeting rules and requirements public notice procedure bylaw that kind of thing. We want all of that to come from the clerk's office.

13:41So, this then leaves the departmental staff at any of our committees to focus on what they know best, whether it's you know heritage or water conservation.

13:49So, when it comes to resourcing, we're really talking about some additional resources in the clerk's office so that we can take on that type of work.

13:57Specifically about heritage Guelph. I think these changes are relatively simple. We were generally proposing that the committee stays as is there was a lot of support.

14:06From many members from staff from members of council that we spoke with for heritage Guelph to remain. We are suggesting that the name change to the heritage advisory committee.

14:16That's just because we want all of our committee names to be as easy to understand for members of the public as possible. So, colloquially, we make so call it heritage Guelph, but on the website, we'd suggest that it's a heritage advisory committee.

14:29I think it's well connected to the strap plan. Obviously, it's got connections to the to the planning act as well.

14:35There will be a terms of reference update when we bring this final work to council in March of next year.

14:41But I think in the case of heritage Guelph, we're really just tweaking around the edges, making sure that the terms of reference are on the current modern template that we're linking it to the city's current strategic plan.

14:52And that is consistent with the with the framework. I don't suggest that the mandate is going to be changing significantly. And I think we know heritage Guelph is already meeting monthly. I think you guys have enough on your plate.

15:02And largely that's what we heard. So, when we talk to heritage Guelph members and members of city council, why widespread support, but some concern definitely about expanding the mandate, which we're not suggesting.

15:13And then there was some interest at the chairs and vice chairs workshop about the idea of could we actually maybe shift a couple of things that currently go to heritage Guelph to other forms of engagement to make the workload a little bit lighter.

15:26So, when we're reviewing the terms of reference, we'll definitely consider that, but I'm not expecting any, any, any broad or huge changes to come about through that process.

15:36And that brings me to the end of my presentation. I'm happy to answer any questions, but ultimately what we're recommending to the committee is that you recommend the city council the continuation of the mandate of heritage Guelph as the heritage advisory committee.

15:50So, when we go to council in March of next year, I want to make sure I've got resolutions from all 14 of our advisory committees, whether they're in favor against or somewhere in the middle of course is, is your choice, but we'll hopeful that will, we'll have your support.

16:04Otherwise, I'm happy to answer any questions.

16:06David is a question here in the room.

16:08Yeah, good morning.

16:10Under the proposed changes, there's a mention of an additional responsibility of contributing to keep pillars of the strategic plan.

16:19City building and economy. What would I.

16:23I would just 5, it's been equal to that.

16:28So, I think the question so you were identifying the city building and people on economy section to the strategic plan and wondering how heritage Guelph would contribute to those.

16:37Oh, or what changes there are just demanding.

16:41I don't think there is an explicit change there from your existing mandate other than when your mandate was written. We didn't have the current strategic plan.

16:50So, no ability to reference those pillars.

16:52What we want under the new governance framework is to be reviewing the terms of reference for our committees every 4 years.

16:59So, there'll be a cycle timed with the city council turn of office, which would allow us to do review so that when we have a new strategic plan, for example, in the future.

17:08We would make sure that we're getting those changes into the terms of reference that hasn't been happening historically. So many terms of reference are quite out to date.

17:16And that's what we want to make sure there's that that reference in there, but all of our committees.

17:21Will be connected through their terms of reference to the strategic plan. So there might be a statutory element where the legislation says.

17:29You know, this committee must consider these things. Obviously that reference will be in there, but where we're going beyond the statutory mandate or where there's overlap between the statutory mandate and the strategic plan.

17:39We'll make sure we're linking these terms of reference to the city strategic plan.

17:43Oh, you don't see any additional work then for the committee with that addition.

17:50No, I think generally what we heard from members was that there's already a high volume of work. And if anything, what we heard was kind of.

17:58Is there a couple of smaller things that we could look to pair off potentially. I don't think we got any feedback saying, hey, we want to take on more or sort of expand the mandate significantly beyond what it is now just because.

18:09I wouldn't allow for that additional volume.

18:12Thank you.

18:14Yeah, so for me.

18:18Looking at, so I guess the slide 6, the concern that the committee agenda is full and can't accommodate more topics due to tight timelines.

18:27I guess I would just say that we've had a real.

18:32Push to get some properties designated this year and that that's probably.

18:37Maybe created some additional agenda item for us.

18:41Sorry about that. That's my dog.

18:44And that.

18:47You know, historically, I don't think the agenda was too full that we couldn't accommodate more topics. And generally, I find that our meetings and on time. It's rare that we use the full 2 hours.

18:58And then also.

19:00The, the next point that chairs and vice chairs indicate interest in modifying the terms of reference to delegate.

19:06Some topics to alternate forms of engagement. Um, I'd be curious to know what topics were there any examples given and what alternate forms of engagement were included.

19:16Yeah, I don't know that I'll be able to pull any specific examples right now. It is something we'll discuss with.

19:23Heritage staff room or viewing the terms of reference and I think generally if I hear the feedback today that.

19:29The workload of the committee is reasonable, but that conversation becomes less of a less of a focus for us.

19:35But when we were doing those workshops and certainly when we present this to council.

19:40We want to remind everybody that advisory committees are just 1 way of engaging the public and there are particularly time and energy intensive way of engaging the public.

19:50And we want to be bringing them things that are strategically focused that require folks who are sort of a meshed in that particular world and have the time and ability to read reports, ask questions, come to committees, prepare past motions and that kind of thing.

20:03So, maybe stepping out of the heritage world for a second, but thinking about transit. So, you know, we don't need a transit advisory committee to tell us.

20:11Whether route 99 should turn left or right on Gordon stream. We have professional route planners for that. And if we want information from riders, we can go survey thousands of them.

20:20That's not the type of question we ought to ask, you know, 789 people on a committee. So that's the type of thing we really look at it and go, is there a way that we can get this type of information.

20:29An alternative form of engagement or is this something that is strategically focused and should be landing at the at the committee.

20:38I see. Okay. Thanks.

20:40Miranda, I just had a quick comment. I know I only was able to attend 1 of the 2 meetings and Kim and I had a great chat. I don't believe by the rest of that. I know the meetings had all chairs and vice chairs from all of the committees there.

20:50So, I think this might be a bit of a generalized list of some of the commentary down and please correct me if I'm off on that. We neither of us would have said that we're, we don't, we want things off our plate.

21:00I think either of us ever made that comment. So I think some of this comes from as Dylan just mentioned 1 of the other committees.

21:07It was all everyone at the same meeting. So I think that it's probably something they heard from other committees. I don't know if that was specific to heritage wealth because we were like, I don't remember saying that.

21:16Okay.

21:17Just want to make that point of clarification.

21:20I wonder if it was another chair or vice chair, but then it does say of heritage wealth in that bullet point. So maybe that's a typo, but thank you very much for telling me that. And I'm sure most of us on the committee would agree that we've just had more designations than usual this year, which has maybe.

21:37Added to our agenda more than we're used to, but certainly not unmanageable.

21:42You know, and I think we both stress the importance of keeping the committee that it was very, very valuable. And I think we both went on at length at that 1 meeting. We attended here at city. Yeah. All those comments, which I think would be echoed by the entire committee for sure.

21:53Okay.

21:54Great.

21:55I appreciate that feedback too. I think when we're looking at that line on side 6, my note here is just to strike that when we go about considering the terms of reference and it's really just about.

22:05Refreshing the terms of reference so it's consistent with the governance framework, the strategic plan, getting it on the current template and that kind of thing, but broadly keeping the mandate, except for some updated language and that kind of thing, the same as it is now.

22:17Great. Thank you.

22:18And Alex.

22:25Oh, you're just muted there.

22:27Thank you.

22:30Just quick note. Thank you for the clarification because that was something that I was concerned about, especially given that I know I've had conversations with staff of the bring some presentations for it. I would, I would hate to see.

22:43You know, our agenda items getting shorter and not being able to accommodate that, but I do have a question regarding the strategic goals. I think it was on 1 of the slides.

22:58Outline for heritage golf. I guess this is 2 part 1 is.

23:02Because this is my 1st time seeing the ACOC review.

23:08I'd love to understand when at what stage we're going to be talking about terms of terms of reference.

23:14And also just with regards to heritage golf and how it supports. Well, the city of golf strategic plans.

23:23You know, is that something that is finalized?

23:26I think we have 2 listed there.

23:28But, you know, I was kind of, and I was looking at the city website. I really think heritage golf could.

23:34It's support the city as far as an environmental.

23:38Strategic plan is concerned because, you know, we deal with sort of retaining.

23:44Buildings and stopping things going to the dump, you know, which is construction based is a huge thing. So, I guess my question is, what is, what is the sort of.

23:54Going like the timeline for terms of reference review and.

23:58Have we fully locked in on our strategic plan?

24:03Sort of pillars.

24:05Yeah, so maybe I will, I will, I will talk about sort of next steps for the project.

24:10And then I can circle back to some of your questions too. So.

24:13The simplest answer is this is our last touch point with all 14 of our committees. And we'll be.

24:19On the staff side working on revised terms of reference and bringing those to council along with this proposal in March of next year.

24:27If council approves what we bring forward in March of next year.

24:31Then we will immediately look to recruit. I think generally speaking, all of the positions are likely to be declared vacant. Although heritage golf is changing so little that we may want to think about that.

24:41The other committees are going to have composition changes, which makes it a little bit more difficult. But.

24:45Let's say for the case of example, the current committees are there, the proposed committees are established. There's obviously many vacancies. We go and recruit. We get people appointed to those committees.

24:55In roughly the June, May, and of, and of May, early June timeline, and then they're meeting for the 1st time next summer.

25:03Because the governance framework is now in place and it sets about a process for the review of each advisory committee.

25:10That means moving forward each committee will have the chance to take a look at their terms of reference and to judge their own effectiveness.

25:18Every term of council. So 1 of the 1st things that committee will do when they meet following an election or in this case, when they meet for the 1st time next year.

25:25Is to set about what success looks like for them based on their terms of reference and then at the end of their 4 year term to look back and go.

25:32Have we been successful? Do we need to recommend to council any changes in our.

25:37Public mandate composition, whatever it may be, ultimately we funnel all of those from the advisory committees to council in a single report.

25:44So that every term of council, there is a review of our advisory committees, their terms of reference and their effectiveness.

25:50That's important because in the past, it was always led by departments and it was never done holistically. So we're now baking in effectively a mini version of what we've spent the last year and a half 2 years doing.

26:00Every cycle of council and we had thought about bringing the specific terms of reference for each of these 7 committees back to the 14 committees that are impacted.

26:10But the reality is logistically by the time this lands at council in March, this project will have been ongoing for a little bit over 2 years.

26:17And to go back to the committees to have a discussion about those terms of reference every time we cycle back to the 14 committees.

26:24That's adding 3 to 4 months to our process.

26:27So, we made a decision that we'd get the committee's feedback upstream this case. It is the 3rd time we met with the committee for this particular project, but upstream to say, yes, we support generally speaking the continuation of the committee.

26:38Or in many cases, the merger of a couple committees, whatever it may be.

26:42And then staff will take that guidance from the committees, build the terms of reference and bring it to council next March.

26:54Alex, did you want to comment back on that or is going to any other questions on that response? Yes. Thank you, sir. So.

27:00So, I understand is correctly are we having a terms of reference review for heritage wealth in January of 2025.

27:12Staff will be modernized. So staff will be rewriting modernizing your terms of reference and bringing them to council approval in March of next year, but they are not coming back to committee.

27:22Okay.

27:23In between now and then, and that's true for all 14 of our current advisory committees.

27:28So.

27:31Our only our only chance to discuss our own terms of reference would be this.

27:38Is that correct? So, I mean, I don't want to suggest that this is the only chance because we have been working with the committee and the committee members for the last.

27:4718 plus months, this is the 3rd time we've met. So there's been touch points throughout the year, including the workshops.

27:53But yes, this is the last time. So, for example, I just heard from the committee that there was generally no interest or need.

27:59To remove items from the mandate or push them to other forms of engagement. So we've got that noted and when we look to review those terms of reference, we'll make sure that we're taking the committee's advice on that.

28:09So, I think the answer is generally speaking. Yes, this is the committee's last time to consider this proposal as part of this project before we bring it forward to council in March next year.

28:21Sarah, Sarah, I'm not going to try and be too formal about this, but maybe.

28:30Through you to the clerks do.

28:33You know, I know we have a full agenda today, but do we need to pass a motion if we want to have a discussion of the terms of reference at this meeting, given, given what we've just heard.

28:46To the other folks in the room for clarification on that.

28:49Yeah, so through you chair, you can that is the ability of the committee to do that if you want. I will highlight though that what Dylan was saying is.

29:00Prior to the finalization of the framework, there will be another touch point, but following the implementation of the framework, there will be that terms of reference review on that June, May, timeline that was discussed.

29:13Yeah, right. I guess I'm only one individual in this committee so I mean I term the terms of reference because I'm playing patch up, you know, it's something that I definitely would.

29:34Again, I'm coming late to the game here and I recognize that is something that I would love to have a discussion about.

29:43However, if I can I open this up to other committee members for comment because, you know, people feel the need to have a conversation or if they feel like they've already had enough engagement with staff on this and I will drop it, but I'm just.

30:00Or do we want to do it in June.

30:02I just, I'm a little.

30:06It's used about.

30:08You know, if I have some questions or comments or concerns about how we're terms of references laid out, how would we like, when are we going to be doing this right.

30:21Back to Dylan and quick question as attached, I think to where Alex is going is we obviously all would have got our terms of reference when we started and is there any comment you can make on changes.

30:30That you will be making to our terms of reference I know that in the document it just says they'll be updated. And so if we all have access to our terms of reference to the pad when we started and I believe I would have had that as part of his package as well and and Kelly too because that you're right you came in later like in the summer I think to our committee.

30:47So you wouldn't have been a part of the last 18 months to Dylan's point for sure.

30:52If there's any insight into those changes so that folks understand and I know it's the answers have been not significant changes you're going to back off on that workload piece.

31:01And then the other things are just more alignment with the strategic plan which will happen with all committees regardless and I don't know that we would have a say on alignment with strategic plan because it's already been decided.

31:11But if you could maybe shed some light on that I think that might hopefully that'll help a little bit with the conversation.

31:19Sure yeah so I will, I will I want to try and make sure it's as clear as possible.

31:25So I do want the committee to understand. We are not bringing back terms of reference to you for comment prior to bring them to council for approval.

31:34I think in practice, I would like to do that but from a timing perspective, there simply isn't enough time and I think continuing the project on to you know closer to 3 years is too long.

31:44We spent a lot of time and done a lot of engagement with committee members and we're eager to get the new proposal in front of council so the simplest answer is any feedback you want to give us today.

31:53Now is the time and it's absolutely in order. I mean, we already heard feedback that we don't need to sort of back off on removing things from the mandate at all. So that's an example of us.

32:02Taking that feedback and hearing you.

32:05I also want to make it clear that when we formed the new committees.

32:09It is not as if that new committee will immediately review their terms of reference and then we'll be bringing changes to council that will happen within the next 4 years.

32:18So, there is a cycle to set up here and this is a little awkward because it's the 1st time.

32:23Because we're trying to set up these committees and have them operating in accordance with the governance framework for the 1st time.

32:28There will be a flow to this where every 4 years, every committee has a chance to provide feedback and amend their terms of reference or recommend to council the amending of their terms of reference.

32:38We're just not there yet and this is a little more awkward because that's it's the initial setup.

32:42As far as the actual terms of reference changes.

32:45I think the chair did a good job summarizing them. So, there's a number of things in the governance framework that council has approved, which now need to be reflected within the terms of reference. So, for example, the governance framework says that committees should be 7, 9 or 11 members.

33:00Some of our committees have more than that. Some of our committees have less than that. So the composition in those terms of reference would change that doesn't have a big impact on heritage 12.

33:08You're already sitting at, I believe, 9 members. We will make sure that they're connected to the strap plan.

33:13We will include roles for chair for members for staff liaison for city courts office staff in the terms of reference. Those roles are currently set in other policies.

33:23And we want to combine them all and include them in the terms of reference specifically.

33:28We want to talk about who the appropriate staff liaison is because we want to make sure that we have strategically focused staff liaisons.

33:34We want to have strategically focused committees. And then when it comes to the mandate, it's really about working with heritage staff so that the mandate from its current form is updated to reflect current legislation current city policies.

33:48Current best practices when it comes to heritage conservation and that type of thing. It's not a significant change either expanding or reducing to the actual the actual mandate itself.

33:59Alex, did you want to have any clarification on that before I put a brand done.

34:06Sure. Thank you, Sarah. Yeah, I guess.

34:12I guess I'm, I'm, I'm struggling with the fact like.

34:17Will lease if this is the, this is seems like a silly question, but this is the last time we're going to have a discussion about this.

34:25For 4 years.

34:27Like, are we going to see the updated terms of reference before it's goes to council? I just, it seems like we aren't going to get a chance as a committee to review the final.

34:42Output before it goes and I understand a lot of this is just updating and bringing things in line with the rest of the city documents and the rest of the committees, but.

34:52Do you know where I'm coming from as far as like, it would be nice to see a final, you know, like the actual written words of the terms of reference that we're going to be sort of held to for the next 4 years before it kind of goes out. Like, is there no framework for.

35:07That approval in a meeting like.

35:11Between now and when it goes to council.

35:17So, I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to suggest for a second that it, that it, it couldn't be done, but remember, we have 14 committees.

35:24So, to bring back every terms of reference to every committee for review, and I suspect some committees would probably want that to happen twice once for initial feedback.

35:32And then once again, to actually workshop or tinker with a final copy.

35:35It's the 3 to 4 months in addition to the 2 and a 3rd years that we've all spent on this project that gave us pause. That's the only reason we didn't bring those individual terms of reference back to the committee.

35:46Because it would have meant a 4th visit.

35:49And I think, given the amount of engagement we have done with committees and given the feedback that we've got throughout this process.

35:56Hundreds of touch points. We're fairly confident that we can write as staff.

36:01Terms of reference updates, which are going to be very palatable to the committee and not represent significant changes.

36:07But it is a, it is a matter of practicality that we looked at it and said, you know, 2 years and 3 months is, is long enough for us to have been working on this proposal 3 touch points with every committee.

36:18A working group of advisory committee members that met, I believe, 8 times the chair and vice chair workshops.

36:24All of that has been significant. It's been throughout the project and the changes for heritage, golf in particular, the changes are really quite operational.

36:33And keeping with the governance framework and the idea that we want to be going to committees to get upstream policy advice, strategic level advice.

36:40The strategic advice that we've heard from the committee so far is heritage golf is working pretty well.

36:45Don't make a lot of changes. Certainly make it consistent with the new strategic plan with the governance framework.

36:51But otherwise we should keep operating the way we are. And that's the feedback that we're going to take and run with when it comes to actually amending the terms.

37:00Why did you want to add something else to the conversation?

37:04Sorry, were you asking me sir? I was going to let Alex and do you with his line of questions, but you're welcome to jump in if Alex is okay with that.

37:11Sorry, Marin, do you mind if I just make 1 last. Yeah, no, go ahead. Yeah.

37:18Yeah, I guess I, I'm, I'm.

37:21Okay, I've got a question. So.

37:27Is there like say, say.

37:32It is, it is absolutely palatable. There's no real change. I understand that I understand the constraints of, you know, additional months that this would add on to the process. I fully appreciate that.

37:46Is there the opportunity.

37:49Say, after the new terms of reference are published and confirmed by staff or council.

37:56For heritage wealth to, if there is, for instance, like.

38:01As a, as a side comment, like I definitely would have preferred to have a conversation with my fellow committee members as far as like the timing of the meetings or even if like there's ways to.

38:13Change how we receive information and agendas and stuff like that. But I just feel like we either have to have this conversation now or is that something that we can say.

38:21In January or March of next year.

38:24Pull the terms of reference out and say, we want to talk about this line right here. Is that awesome.

38:30Talk about it and possibly change it. Alex.

38:35Yes, thank you for the clarification.

38:39Dylan, I think wants to respond.

38:41Yeah, thanks for the question. So.

38:43It depends. So, I mean, I guess.

38:46From a policy perspective, the committee within your terms of reference can discuss whatever you want. So the chair can add agenda items. And if you want to add the terms of reference and discussion about the terms of reference at any point, you can do that.

38:57There will not be time for you guys to have that discussion as a committee. And then for us to include your feedback in a report to council for that March timeline is, is my concern.

39:07But some of what was in the question that was just asked is not something that requires in terms of reference review to change either. So when it comes to the.

39:15Committee meeting schedule that can be set by the committee on an annual basis. So as long as we're being.

39:21You know, thoughtful and aware of staff's availability to the meeting dates and times can be changed by a resolution of the committee.

39:27The way that you receive information the way agendas look.

39:30The timing of agenda production publishing. None of that is really included directly in the terms of reference and there's a high degree of flexibility there. So that's something we could discuss.

39:40Either at a committee meeting or even in some smaller group sessions, if you had specific feedback that you wanted to share. So I think some of what you're talking about.

39:49Because it's not really directly included in the terms of reference is something more open for discussion at any time when it comes to really the mandate as the core or maybe the most important part of those terms of reference.

40:01It's the mandate where we're saying that's going to go to council in March, which means on my end, I need to have that report done by early February. So we can hit our internal review and publication deadlines, which doesn't leave time between now and then for us to come back to the committee to have that discussion.

40:16And to be fair, our mandate really isn't changing minus the updates to some of the strategic plan things that are going to be impacting all committees.

40:26Is that fair.

40:28Yes, that's correct.

40:33Alex, I know your hand is still up.

40:36I'll pass it over to Miranda.

40:39Miranda.

40:40Yeah, so I was just going to say that I know there have been previous touch points regarding the ACOC's.

40:48I'm just, I just want to make sure that I understand whether or not we've ever discussed terms of reference before. I don't think so. Am I right in saying that?

41:01So, if I jump in Dylan, I think the last time in terms of reference was that either Steven, I might need your help here.

41:12Is that 2020 or 2019?

41:16I believe that's true, chair.

41:20So, I was saying, you know, throughout this project, we've been talking with committee members about the terms of reference from the very beginning.

41:28So, whether it's talking about like.

41:31The, in phase 1, the compositions of committees, what your committees look like, how many members, what types of skills.

41:38What, for what purposes would we have an advisory committee in the 1st place? How do they communicate with council? All of that impacts terms of reference.

41:46And then certainly the discussions this year about should the mandate expand? Should it contract? Should, you know, I think we talked earlier this year about maybe, you know, merging with the planning advisory committee or something like that.

41:56All of that is in effect, a discussion of the terms of reference and what the mandate of our committee should be.

42:01Just not a discussion of the terms of reference in the context of us actually having a document up on screen to say draft terms of reference.

42:08Right. Yeah. Well, we've talked a lot about what's included in the terms of reference.

42:12Okay.

42:15I, you know, I would like to have some more discussion on this, but I think it's hard because we don't know what the proposed changes are that you've given us a rough outline.

42:32But, but it's, I think, hard for us to have a an informed discussion today.

42:39Without more detail, without seeing the draft.

42:43I don't know what you think Alex. I mean, if you want to talk about it further, I would certainly support it. But.

42:47Ellen, did you want to respond? See your hand is up.

42:54Yeah, I just, there's 2 points. So the 1st is that the recommendation that we're proposing is that heritage golf recommends to city council.

43:02The continuation of the heritage golf mandate as the heritage advisory committee.

43:08We've used the word continuation deliberately to indicate no significant changes to mandate.

43:14Which is why we feel comfortable that ultimately the actual mandate of heritage golf while updated is going to be largely the same as it is now.

43:22And then secondly, just a reminder to the committee, whatever advice you give us today, we will share with council on this final report.

43:28So if you want to indicate to council that you don't think they should accept this proposal and they should send the terms of reference back to heritage golf for review.

43:36By all means put that in a resolution today and then when we present to council in March, we will make sure they understand that we're presenting this with or without.

43:44The support of heritage golf. So any, any advice you want to get to council.

43:49Definitely now is the now is the time because it is the last touch point with with the committee before we go to council. So just knowing that I, you know, I've indicated that we're not going to bring those terms of reference back and draft form for feedback.

44:02If there is specific advice that committee wants to share with council based on that, then we look for a resolution in that regard too.

44:15So a really good comment and then I'm happy to go Miranda your hand is also if you their comments or questions and then to Alex as well.

44:22Kim and I were just talking about amending the motion with an and that the terms of reference does not reduce heritage golf's current workload and workload might not be the right word, but I know it gets at that one bullet about.

44:35But we don't want our mandate to be stand it expanded and taking work away whatever that that wording was. I think the intention is that we recognize that our current workload is.

44:44Is sufficient and desirable and that we don't want that to be changed.

44:49But happy to go Miranda and then Alex.

44:56Yes, we could put that in I.

44:59I guess I would say to make sure that we.

45:03We have a look at this document before.

45:07It's finalized I would also support the idea of saying that we would like to.

45:13We would like to see it before before it's finalized.

45:17Bill, I maybe I'll ask you a clarification question.

45:29If we passed a motion today that included that we would want to see the draft terms of reference for heritage golf at our December meeting, would that be reasonable?

45:38I totally understand the complication of the timeline here and wanting things to get out and before council for this, this sort of ticking deadline of March.

45:48Is it something that a draft of heritage golf terms reference could be provided and I know it would need to be like about a week or so in advance at the meeting.

45:56Which doesn't give a lot of time and I'm well aware of that so that there is that opportunity and I think committee members would be just based on the conversation would be very interested in committed to having a whole some comments back in a very short timeline.

46:09Is that feasible reasonable if they have not the right word feasible is probably a better question.

46:14Yeah, no, thank you.

46:17If we only had 1 committee, I think honestly the answer would be yes, it's feasible.

46:22But unfortunately, we don't we have 14 and that would mean that I would absolutely need to have those draft terms of reference before all 14 of our advisory committees and I cannot do that feasibly.

46:34And hit that March council target.

46:37So by all means, it's important for the heritage committee to pass the resolution to make sure I can communicate to council what you would like to happen when we land this in March.

46:47But I don't have the ability to bring those draft terms of reference back to the committee for comment.

46:53And maybe that's part of the complication is aside from not reducing or changing the workload or mandate.

46:58And I appreciate that the motion absolutely does says that the continuation of our mandates we know the base mandate will not change. I think this is probably the sticking point is those changes.

47:08You're saying will come before us and committee members are stating that they want to see those, but you're saying that there's just timeline wise. It's just not feasible.

47:18Yeah, I mean, of course, when we go to council in March.

47:21Council could absolutely say we're going to approve all of these changes, but we heard we see that heritage golf here requested more time to review the terms of reference dealing. We want you and the city clerk's office team to go back and work with heritage golf on that.

47:33And then obviously at that point, we would take that direction from council. We'd go back to committee.

47:37We'd spend, I don't know, 3 to 4 months, whatever it takes to get that review done and then we'd look to go back to council with that. So.

47:44It's important you pass the resolution because I want to make sure when we go to council in March, we will be really upfront and very clear with them about exactly what heritage golf and all of the other committees have requested when we talk about this final proposal.

47:57Alex.

48:03Yeah, I think I would echo Miranda's.

48:10I think it would be good for a draft come back. I mean, I've just heard what Dilley said, but it seems.

48:21I think I think I would have prepared and maybe other committee members would feel like this.

48:27I would have prepared more on our terms of reference to come to this meeting with, you know, if this was the final touch point.

48:35More more comments or questions regarding a terms of reference.

48:40Do we have everybody all committee members here in the room because.

48:46Or are there any that are missing because it feels that would be unfortunate if somebody did have.

48:52Any comments without having the chance to make them now. So, I think I would like to support Miranda's.

49:00Motion to.

49:02Ask for the draft terms of reference to come before heritage wealth before it goes to council.

49:10So that, you know, we all have time to sit with it. If that's what the committee wants to do.

49:16And I think as a clarification point is not that it would be before it goes to council, I think based on Dilley's comments, it would be going to council with the common Pumil and heritage wealth wants to see this.

49:26Before it is meant or passed, but council could also deny that is that correct Dylan is I don't want to put word anybody's mouths.

49:34Yeah, exactly. If the committee is up the position that you don't support this change.

49:39Because you haven't been able to see the final terms of reference, then you can pass a resolution indicating exactly that.

49:45Which is your way of telling council that you don't support this change because you haven't been able to see that final wording.

49:51And we'll make sure for each of our 14 committees.

49:54There will be sections in the report dedicated to making sure that council understands what they were asking for, whether it's full support or in between.

50:02You could also say in this case, you, you know, you support the continuation of the mandate, but or as well.

50:08You would like to see those come back like that's a bit of a middle ground. It really depends what the committee wants to communicate.

50:13To council. What is it you want council to know your advice is as it relates to the, the proposed continuation of heritage wealth as it stands.

50:23So, I would be definitely prepared to say that we support continuing the mandate.

50:31But with the ask that we with the statement, I guess that we can't support the terms of reference as they are because we haven't had a chance to review them and that we would appreciate the opportunity to review them.

50:43So then the suggested motion would read as that heritage wealth recommends to city council the continuation of the heritage wealth mandate as the heritage advisory committee.

50:55That the terms of reference does not reduce heritage, cause current workload.

50:59And then the final terms of reference be reviewed by heritage, well, in advance of council approval.

51:04It's fine for me.

51:11So, Fred, are you moving that motion then? Yes.

51:14Is there a second year Alex is seconding all in favor.

51:18Everybody and chair, I'm sorry, just to jump in. If you don't mind sending us a copy. I will ask for it.

51:28Thank you. Yes, absolutely.

51:32So, are we freedom? I know we have a full agenda still moving forward after this. So, are we Alex and right? I know both your hands still up. Are we okay to move along in the agenda?

51:45Yeah, for me. Yes. Sorry. I pressed the button to lower my hand. I don't know if you can still see it, but on my end, it says it's lower.

51:52Sorry, but that's okay.

51:54And Alex.

51:56I mean, I only had the one comment as feedback with regards to adding the additional strategic pillar for environmentalism for heritage golf is it as how we support the city strategic plan, but.

52:13I don't know. It seems like things are kind of up in the air right now as far as whether or not we will have the conversation later. So, I don't know if this is, I'd like to move on with the agenda as well. But.

52:24You know, is that something that could be noted down or discussed or are we.

52:28I'm just kind of surprised now because I don't know if we're going to actually have a conversation about this in the future. It sounds like we might not. So.

52:34And I can maybe comment. I remember we had the workshop. I can't remember and Dylan, you feel free to correct me when we had the workshop with the whole committee. I remember we went through the strategic plan and talked about what we felt heritage wealth aligned with within the strategic plan and spend.

52:47I think solid hour talking about those things and.

52:52I'm sure environment was touched on because it touched, I think heritage wealth touches on everything. I think that maybe was one of the complications of heritage wealth is that we could make arguments for all aspects of the strategic plan.

53:02And I think the goal was to sort of narrow down the finer aspects of the committee as part of all of this. But I do remember the proof that you were like, well, it's essentially everything within the plan without the pillars.

53:15Dylan, I see your your hands. And so maybe you can clarify or correct me and please feel free to correct.

53:21Yeah, no, I think you're exactly right. It's tough for all of our committees because you're right almost every committee will touch on.

53:28Almost every aspect of the strategic plan, at least a little bit, but we really tried to hone in on when we had those discussions with advisory committees as what is your primary connection.

53:37There will always be secondary or even tertiary.

53:40Connections, you know, these example again, being transit when transit works really well that benefits the economy. It benefits the environment.

53:48But transit is not where you would go to talk about the environment and I see this the same. So we proposed a planning environment and water advisory committee.

53:56So, if there is staff reports or plans that are specifically seeking environmental advice or feedback as a primary purpose.

54:04That's the committee where those would land.

54:06But of course, that's not to say that the work done at heritage, well, for any 1 of our other committees doesn't also have impacts on on the environment. And there are other topics like that.

54:15Like, you know, certainly accessibility is a lens that we want to apply at all of our committees. But when you're looking for accessibility feedback, the is the place you would go to get that not not heritage.

54:25Despite the fact that we do want it something we do want accessibility to be something that the heritage committee considers when you're making a heritage related decision.

54:33Did you want to respond or continue the discussion around that pillar.

54:53Thank you, sir. Yeah, I mean, I feel pretty strongly that heritage golf.

55:00I think should be considered under the umbrella for the environmental. I don't think it's necessarily a secondary or tertiary. I think at least, you know, the education that I received and my understanding of heritage and as it fits in with policy and planning is that, you know, it is something that is part and parcel with.

55:21Environmental considerations. I mean, the, the classic line is the greenest building is the 1 that's already built. I think we're in a climate now of.

55:31Pushing for density where that's often put at odds with heritage.

55:36And, you know, I think it's helpful for public perception that they understand that.

55:43You know, part of this is also about saving on the carbon costs that have already been put into these buildings that have been built.

55:51And ways in which we can reduce the amount of construction land landfill use. You know, I think that's an important thing. So I would just offer that to the committee.

56:03You know, I think there's something like 4 million or more tons of.

56:07Construction waste goes into our landfills every year. So.

56:12You know, that's something that heritage can weigh in on as part of the preservation of buildings and stopping it from entering into the landfill.

56:23But.

56:25I would propose, you know, to this committee, I guess through a formal motion of need be that.

56:32Environmental is included as part of the heritage golf strategic.

56:39Goals and go from there.

56:43So the potential motion and Alex, I just wrote really to be while you were.

56:49Sharing is that the environmental pillar from the strategic plan you recognize as part of heritage golf mandate.

56:56Does that sound reasonable and is and are you willing to move that.

57:03I will move that. Thank you.

57:05And is there someone to second that motion?

57:11Right. I think your hand, I can only see 1 finger. I'm assuming I hope it's a good finger.

57:15Seconded all those in favor.

57:24Right. That motion will be carried and Dylan, I believe your hand is up.

57:31So, okay, madam chair, the motion is carried. So we'll make sure that the back gets to council.

57:35Thank you. Thank you.

57:38Alright, and I'm assuming Miranda that hand is still just floating on our side of the screen. And it's a relic of the past. But if I ignore you at any point, please interrupt me. I will not take any events.

57:49Okay.

57:50Oh, it's gone now. I don't know what happened, but now it's gone. Maybe it just needed me to speak. I don't know.

57:56Who knows. Thanks very much Dylan for the discussion today.

58:01Thanks for having me.

58:03Alright, I done 2.3. Then is progress update on 2024 individual designations and presentation from Jack.

58:12Thank you chair.

58:14This will be relatively brief because I did my intent with this report was just to provide the committee with kind of a snapshot of the individual designations we've done so far this year.

58:28So, to date, we have.

58:31Council has passed 11 designation bylaws.

58:35So that is the most individual designations passed in any single year in Wolff's history. So.

58:43Congratulations. Yeah, we've done a lot of work to get there.

58:49I also provided an overview of the status of that list of 22 priority properties that heritage goal identified at the beginning of the year in January.

59:04With the exception of 2 properties that are.

59:08Within the proposed downtown heritage district.

59:11The rest of those that are not yet designated will be carried forward into 2025 properties that we intend to designate.

59:23Part of the reason I wanted to share this progress update at November's meeting instead of December's meeting.

59:29The reason I wanted to share this is that heritage staff are working on a designation strategy for 2025 and we're going to try and set our ambitions a little bit higher than this year based on lessons that we've learned.

59:44In 2023 and 2024.

59:47As well as what other municipalities have been doing to kind of help expedite the designation process.

59:55That strategy exactly finalized yet, but that's something you can look forward to in December's meeting.

1:00:01I'm happy to take any questions the committee may have on designations to date.

1:00:09I just want to go over things. This is impressive. I know we just got done over the past year.

1:00:15Thank Bob our research system research machine.

1:00:19Alex.

1:00:23Just echoing your comments Sarah. I just want to say thank you to staff. I mean, it's great to see this all summed up and see, you know, how far we've come this year and the work that you guys have done.

1:00:33I mean, I've been here very long.

1:00:35I did have a question in sorry if I missed it just now.

1:00:40What's the.

1:00:41What's the story with 35 miscarode.

1:00:44Yeah, so that property.

1:00:48We became aware from our environmental planner colleagues. I believe it's in, I'm not sure what the exact designation is, but it's an environmentally sensitive area where new development cannot happen.

1:01:02So, I think our assumptions about potential risks of that property in terms of redevelopment.

1:01:08We're not founded now the property still merits designation for sure. So we're going to keep it on our radar.

1:01:17But we've been in touch with the property owners and those discussions are ongoing.

1:01:22Great. And just back on to the 2 that are for the downtown heritage conservation district. So, the reason.

1:01:33The understanding is that those are being looked at as part of the, the HCD plan. Right.

1:01:40Yes, yeah, exactly. If they can be protected through part 5, then we can spend our efforts elsewhere for other part 4 designations.

1:01:48Right.

1:01:49And on your last point about the upcoming plan, I mean, I think.

1:01:55I'm all on board with the idea of shooting higher for next year.

1:02:00Are I understand that in January of this past year heritage, well, committee members help draft priority lists.

1:02:07Yeah, something that we'll be looking to do over the December, January timeframe. So that start of the next year.

1:02:16You know, we're sort of priority list is again, they sort of.

1:02:20Operating guideline.

1:02:23Yeah, so I think the direction we're weaning and again, it's not finalized. So I won't.

1:02:30Speak to out of turn, but I.

1:02:35Steven, image and Bob and I combed through the entire municipal register and I identified about 150.

1:02:42Good designation candidates and we're, we're kind of hoping to pivot to a strategy where we have.

1:02:49We have this large pool of properties that staff will then draw on.

1:02:56To designate. Now we'll share our list with the committee and also invite any additions that should be made.

1:03:07But that's, yeah, that's where we are right now. I don't know if we'll be looking for like a top 10, the way we have in previous years.

1:03:17But again, the strategies being developed. So I'll have more detail on that in December, but if ever any, any committee members notice properties that have high designation potential.

1:03:33They're, you're welcome to suggest them to staff at any time. It's good for us to be aware.

1:03:38Especially, you know, properties that have strong historical associations. Those are usually designation slam dunks. So.

1:03:46Yeah, always welcome to provide those to staff.

1:03:51And I'll say a quick comment back to that to the last 2 years that I've been on the committee has been very collegial and identifying those priorities, which I assume is always the goal. So it hasn't been.

1:04:02These are jacks top 10 and nobody gets to say it's been very much that a conversation, I think by all, and I would assume, even though the strategy may be changing for January.

1:04:13The goal is going to be the exact same that it's still very much a conversation and jointly joint contributions.

1:04:20Great.

1:04:21Great. No, I love hearing that. I mean, it'll be good to get out and walk around before the snow starts to come in.

1:04:29I guess you've already touched on this jack, but what my question is what.

1:04:36What other things could the committee members be doing to help support staff in in sort of reaching for those higher level of designations. I mean, given that we're still under the gun.

1:04:49With, you know, so the provincial changes to the registry.

1:04:55Yeah, in terms of identifying properties, especially.

1:05:00Like, if you're aware of any properties with strong.

1:05:05Historical associations or Alex as you pointed out, properties with English top pointing to me.

1:05:12When you're able to identify properties that might be at least 2 of those criteria.

1:05:19That's very helpful.

1:05:21The staff, especially instead of just identifying a property because it looks like it might merit designation. If we can receive more information.

1:05:30You know, it was the birthplace of.

1:05:32John Galter, I know that's not a guile. That doesn't make any sense, but.

1:05:38As specific information about properties like that can help kind of guide our research so that we don't have to start from scratch. We have.

1:05:47We know what we're researching because that's that's our aim is to produce at least like a make our reports a little bit shorter and focused than they have been.

1:05:59That'll help us kind of create more designation reports.

1:06:05If does that answer your question?

1:06:11It does. Thank you for that. I.

1:06:15I also wonder too, if there's ways in which the committee could help staff as far as.

1:06:23I think there's there's plenty of confusion out there.

1:06:26At least it's something I run into in my own.

1:06:29You know, professional capacity with what designation means to property owners.

1:06:36In the city and.

1:06:39So maybe there's somewhere committee members can help staff as far as the messaging around that and the public awareness.

1:06:49An education, so.

1:06:51I'll leave it at that though questions or comments from committee members.

1:06:59My only comment on that is that as we've been sharing with people that our house has been designated.

1:07:05The response of almost everyone is, oh, well, you won't have you won't be able to sell your house because no one's going to be able to renovate it.

1:07:12And so what Alex said is certainly valid. I think there's still so much.

1:07:17I know we talked about this at a previous meeting. I just don't. I don't know that I ever saw.

1:07:22The letter that we send out to to homeowners whose property years are being considered for designation.

1:07:30I don't think I ever saw that and I really think some communication we're also talking about communicating with real estate agents.

1:07:38And how that might be helpful so that they weren't against automatically against designation as as unfortunately some homeowners are.

1:07:47It would be great if we could work on maybe work on some of those communication documents. I something I'd be happy to help contribute to.

1:07:56And maybe my speech to having someone from communications attend an early meeting something to put on the agenda in 2025. Yeah.

1:08:04Going to respond. I think a joint effort from both staff and committee members on some kind of.

1:08:11PR campaign or designation would that could go a long way. Yeah, I think that'd be great. Great idea.

1:08:19Hi everyone. Yeah, I can certainly speak to this. There is just a lot of confusion and misperceptions not only about the role of heritage and what the committee members.

1:08:37What on what agendas are, but also just what it might mean and you get people saying things like.

1:08:42Oh, well, if it's designated heritage, I'm not even going to be able to update my bathroom. You know, like it's just there's a bit of.

1:08:51An extreme amount actually of misinformation really so and I think.

1:08:58Real estate agents are very misinformed.

1:09:01About heritage in general.

1:09:04I had talked coffee once with Jack about trying to facilitate something with the Gwelfand district board of realtors because we do public education.

1:09:14And I, I'd be happy to sort of.

1:09:18Approach them and just see what we could do maybe something in 2025 because.

1:09:23You might.

1:09:25You might think real estate agents.

1:09:27Get it, but, but they don't.

1:09:29And especially with the changes that are that are coming.

1:09:34It's it seems very well timed to me because.

1:09:38First of all, they're probably dealing with incorrect information and they're also dealing with information that's about to no longer be the same. So.

1:09:46I think on the.

1:09:49On the PR front.

1:09:51Getting real estate agents at least educated, if not on side.

1:09:56At least so they're not out.

1:09:58Making it sound like, well, this is the end of the world and it's ludicrous to say you can't sell a house with the heritage designation. It can just as easily be an advantage.

1:10:06So statements like that just really speak to the fact that someone's.

1:10:12Not informed so I can, I can definitely do my part with that with talking to the head of the board.

1:10:19I think.

1:10:20They'd be really, I think a lot of agents would be really interested in getting more information about this because.

1:10:27It's not something that's taught. I can tell you that much you don't, you don't get taught about this other than in really broad strokes.

1:10:34So, yeah, there's a lot of room for improvement.

1:10:38I'm going to jump on really quick to what Kelly mentioned, and I'll, what do you Alex to you? It might be helpful. Jack.

1:10:43I have no, no, I'm just playing on this on you because it was your intersection, I guess. But maybe some clarification on informal versus formal.

1:10:50Communication that we can do because I can also have some fantastic students who are super creative designs and things that are like.

1:10:56I think that's a key and maybe for the general homeowner who doesn't care about the real estate side as much some of that.

1:11:03Right.

1:11:04But I don't want to step on comms toes with, with things.

1:11:07So maybe there's a workshop option.

1:11:09Yeah, I think there, the committee plays a role on kind of liaising with.

1:11:15Community activists might be the right word.

1:11:20Yeah, exactly. Like, not all of this has to flow through the city or city staff. If there's students that might be excited about.

1:11:29Anything they could do to encourage more accurate information about designation, then. Yeah, they have free reign to do that. And like, the committee can encourage that.

1:11:40Unless you any branding. Yeah, no, Brandon.

1:11:43I'll get your mic. That instead. That's fine. Alex.

1:11:47Thank you.

1:11:52I just wonder if this would be a good opportunity then to entertain and through you, Sarah to the clerks. I.

1:12:01Maybe some guidance could be given on forming.

1:12:05Subcommittee to work towards this end or to help prepare.

1:12:11Ideas even for committees, the committee to talk to at a later date.

1:12:18Is that something that we can form today and sort of assign members to so that they could meet on this and sort of have some discussions.

1:12:29Yeah, so through chair, my recommendation would actually be to wait for the content that's going to come in December to see what you want to do. And if you want to do those subcommittees or working groups, we can look into the best way to do that based off of.

1:12:45The content that's going to come from heritage staff and and some of the information that you want to capture or work towards.

1:12:53So, I think that's going to be a good idea to be able to satisfy what you're thinking, rather than coming forward with something right now and then having adjustments made in December based off of what's down right.

1:13:04That seems current.

1:13:08Do we should we formally like put something together on this agenda to say that we are going to have a agenda item for that on the next agenda.

1:13:21I'll just note so previously when forming a subcommittee was discussed, I think, like if this was were a designation.

1:13:30Subcommittee.

1:13:32The previous messaging from management is that it like a my own concern is that that that takes up a lot of staff time like that that means more agendas more reports.

1:13:43All the meetings have to be held in a public forum like this. So the previous perspective of management was that like anything that happens in a subcommittee can happen in the full committee during the a lot of time that we have.

1:13:58Especially because like, though, we have been mainly addressing designation as a whole committee for the last two years now.

1:14:09We haven't really needed a designation.

1:14:12Subcommittee.

1:14:14But like, I obviously it's not my call to make this just my advice is that of some committee would mean less individual destinations.

1:14:27And maybe to add your for you jump in.

1:14:31We were talking a little bit before on item 2.2 and the advisor and you were you were looking at shaping some terms of reference and some of the things that came from there was actually not necessarily part of the terms of reference.

1:14:42And I think we're touching on that a little bit here as well right now.

1:14:46That's why I say, let's wait till December.

1:14:49So I think staff have a really good plan.

1:14:51And some of the work that's coming out of that advisory committee framework and clerk's involvement with the committee on a more logistical basis will help the committee itself get through items and designations in a more efficient way.

1:15:08So that's why I'm saying wait till that December date and hearing all that information because you may or may not want to make that call today or then.

1:15:16So that's why I'm saying not make the recommendation at this point either.

1:15:21Right. I take your point on that and Jack, I do take your point as well on discussing things within you. You know, I think my only comment would be that, especially given the idea of increasing the number of designations going forward.

1:15:43You know, it is some of this stuff better suited to be broken off into a separate meeting so that as not to overburden the agenda.

1:15:53The main monthly agenda, but I, I'm happy to wait until December to hear what staff have to say and to have, you know, discussion at that time about, you know, how we want to move forward into 2025.

1:16:09One more comment here for you, Alex and maybe to help with with that there.

1:16:15Staff and the clerk's office have been discussing that and I think the goal is to not overburden the agenda.

1:16:23But as well provide additional opportunities for destination.

1:16:28And there are a couple other avenues within our ability think consent agendas.

1:16:33And the way we engage with the committee for our meetings.

1:16:38Answering questions satisfying comments that sort of stuff that we can explore that will create efficiencies and allow the workload to increase without the meeting time to increase.

1:16:51Okay, well, I look forward to that discussion in December.

1:16:55Thank you.

1:16:57Any other questions or comments from committee members.

1:17:04I'm going to read the room.

1:17:07Okay, so we're going to move on to item 2.4.

1:17:20Just the appointment of a member of heritage wall to delegate at the November 13th, 2024 council meeting.

1:17:28So that's for 37 Kristie Lane notice of attention to designate.

1:17:34We have any volunteers.

1:17:36Yeah.

1:17:47Yeah.

1:17:48Yeah.

1:17:53Okay.

1:17:57Okay, so thank you, David. Thank you, David.

1:18:01So, if everyone's okay with that and no one else would like to volunteer.

1:18:09I'm going to.

1:18:11Just state the recommended motion then that heritage golf appoints David Kimmeletti to delegate on behalf of the committee on the 37 Kristie Lane notice of intention to designate at the November 13th, 2024 council meeting.

1:18:27To have a mover for that. Miranda, the seconder.

1:18:31Laura, all in favor.

1:18:35So that's been thank you.

1:18:48Yeah, I'm the inner.

1:18:50Thanks, Kim.

1:18:53All right, we will move on to the bulk of the rest of our items for designation updates and we will go to 99 will be road, which is a deferral.

1:19:07And this is there's ongoing conversations with the property owners on this one, which are.

1:19:12Hopefully going to be beneficial. So we're going to have that one at the December meeting. You'll remember this was a continuation.

1:19:18From October's meeting. So, just to note that it has been deferred to December.

1:19:24And so we're on item 3.2, which is 328-332 Woolwich heritage attributes and designation recommendation with chat.

1:19:34Chair.

1:19:37Keep this relatively brief.

1:19:49On the screen, you'll see the heritage attributes.

1:19:52Most for 328-330 and 332 Woolwich Street, the.

1:19:58The Gothic revival rail has on Woolwich.

1:20:04So, I think because of the level of ornamentation on this property, it's a little bit more detailed than other residences may be.

1:20:14But I thought it was important to capture, especially the masonry and the brick and stone.

1:20:21I will note.

1:20:26Sadly, 1 of the original sets of front doors, I think it's that the 332 address.

1:20:33They were removed.

1:20:35Just in the last couple of weeks.

1:20:37So, I have listed the original front doors at 328 and 332 as heritage attributes to ensure that they remain in place.

1:20:47But if, if any committee members have any questions or any suggested attributes that may have been missed, I'm happy to happy to hear your feedback.

1:20:58I'll keep this brief. This is more of a question and feedback.

1:21:12But I, and this is where my knowledge of things gets a little hazy.

1:21:18Criteria seven and nine refer to the buildings as they relate to the street.

1:21:25Is there, is there concern that, or should we be looking to have one of the attributes.

1:21:34Refer to the location of the buildings as they relate to the streets, since it is a part of those criteria, like, do are we opening the door?

1:21:43Having something like that to relocation of the buildings down the line.

1:21:48That's a, it's a very good point. I'm.

1:21:53I think.

1:21:54Listing the location of buildings as an attribute is a good practice.

1:22:00So, for this property and others, we can intend to do that.

1:22:04I think it'd be very, very challenging to move this building, but that's not possible. So, I'm happy to add location.

1:22:13As an attribute.

1:22:15Perfect. Thanks. I just a clarification more than anything, but yeah, I would, if other committee members don't have any comments against it, I would be happy to see an attribute.

1:22:27Referring to its location added.

1:22:35Do we want that formally in the motion? Because I know we don't have it, how it.

1:22:39For this one where it was like and provide the following comments.

1:22:44Yes.

1:22:45That's me.

1:22:46Thank you.

1:22:47Comments or questions and then I'm happy to move.

1:22:53So, the very slightly amended motion.

1:23:03Hang on.

1:23:05So, we have that heritage 12 supports the heritage attributes identified for 328 dash 332 Woolwood street.

1:23:13With the addition of location added as an attribute for this site.

1:23:18Outline in the staff report dated November 4th, 2024.

1:23:22And that heritage 12 recommends that city council give notice of its intention to designate 328 dash 32 Woolwood street pursuant to part 4 section 29 of the Ontario heritage act.

1:23:34Yes, there's a way to move the motions Miranda. Thank you. And a sector I flora all those in favor.

1:23:40Excellent. Thanks everyone.

1:23:45Alright, we're going to stay with Jeff, I guess, but the rest of the meeting.

1:23:48We have 136 Glasgow street under I am 3.3 cultural heritage evaluation reports.

1:23:58So, many members may remember from last year we designated the county ironworks at 167 stuff.

1:24:08Street. So, now this is Thomas Gaudi's residence.

1:24:13I think these types of thematic destinations are important to be aware of kind of following a history through the cityscape and making sure that we're designating.

1:24:25Everything related to that history. So, this is Thomas Gaudi's 1876.

1:24:32Residence built by or designed by prominent local architect, John Hall Jr.

1:24:40So, we found that it met.

1:24:43Six of the designation criteria.

1:24:47Specifically, criterion one as a representative Italian style residents.

1:24:54Criterion two because of its impressive craftsmanship and ornamentation.

1:24:59Criterion four because of its association with Thomas Gaudi.

1:25:03Mayor of Guelph and a significant 19th century industrialist.

1:25:08Criterion six because of its association with significant welfare protect John Hall Jr.

1:25:14Criterion seven because it supports the character of the area and criteria nine because of its location on the corner of Glasgow and Liverpool. It is both historically and contemporary way.

1:25:28Considered a landmark.

1:25:32So, again, happy to hear any, any feedback or comments that the committee may have that this cultural heritage evaluation report.

1:25:48Any contact to order? Not yet after after this report we send out our every letter.

1:26:03Questions or comments. All right. So, my emotion that the comments provided by heritage 12 members on the 136 Glasgow Street cultural heritage evaluation report.

1:26:16We provide to staff and council for their consideration. So, what to move.

1:26:21I'll say Kelly this time. All those in favor.

1:26:25Excellent. Thanks everyone.

1:26:30The last one is item 3.4, which is 59 green street cultural heritage evaluation.

1:26:36Thank you.

1:26:41Yeah.

1:26:43So, there we go.

1:26:50So, I'm actually going to invite Bob to provide an overview of the history of this property.

1:26:57What's unique about 59 green you'll note that it's not 1 of the designation priorities for this year, but we were approached by the property owner who requested.

1:27:06Designation and then they've also been invaluable in the research process as well. They gave us a good head start.

1:27:13Bob has been busy working with this one for the last couple of weeks. So, I'll turn it over to him.

1:27:19Yeah.

1:27:22Always be here.

1:27:25This is a, this was a particularly fun one.

1:27:29As Jack mentioned, the property owners were very generous with their time and comments and previous research without help.

1:27:37I don't need to speed the process, but like kind of an, you know, in live in it. So, as is often the case with these older homes.

1:27:47A exact and from date is.

1:27:50Hard to a dome.

1:27:53We would say early 1850s.

1:27:57So far, because of the nature of how the lot itself.

1:28:04I came up. So it's associated to a gentleman named William Hooper.

1:28:11We say 1850s because that's what ownership takes on. He's the longest owner during this period and I came when I humorously, but I found it interesting that he was listed in the tax assessment record as occupation gentlemen.

1:28:27I mean, so maybe the hint that he maybe have the capital to, to conduct the construction. So that's our best guess. So best guess so far.

1:28:37We know that it's completed by at least 1862 because in the Cooper's map, Thomas Cooper map for 1862 there is a structure listed or drawn.

1:28:48So, the time between the early 1850s and 1862 at the very least the Georgian style farmhouse.

1:28:56Architectural style definitely supports that really construction.

1:29:00As far as the kind of historical association, which really helps drive home the designation this property is associated with the gentleman William Hooper, who we don't necessarily know too much about but more prominently it's associated with the gentleman by the name of David Sturton.

1:29:15David Sturton is a is a kind of a very large figure in wealth during the kind of 1860s and 70s.

1:29:24Or that I guess the late 19th century would say he is a the sturdens themselves are prominent family in the area.

1:29:32He was himself a member of parliament briefly and involved politically and other kind of political assignments in the area.

1:29:43And he was also associated with the the Chalmers Church Chalmers Church on Quebec Street now the Royal City Mission and believe in the 18 and 1869 or 1870 the Chalmers Church congregation actually split off from the Knox Presbyterian

1:30:01church just a bit down the road, leading to the construction of the new church, but also the invitation to a gentleman by the name of Reverend Thomas Wardrobe to come from Ottawa, I believe, to become the new minister.

1:30:16And that is the tradition or is this the practice in the Scottish Presbyterian faith a man's is provided for the minister of the church and in this case the man's is likely the man's for the Chalmers Church and Thomas Wardrobe is actually 59 Green Street.

1:30:36And so I'm not horrified by him by just kind of conjecture around like the like cordon cooling, for example, listening in as the man's but also in the city directories which list Thomas Wardrobe as living here.

1:30:55And that connection to certain and wardrobe and the man's for the Chalmers Church is really significant as well, which like Jack was saying earlier it's great to have not just an old building but an old building that has a good kind of story around it so 59 Green Street definitely fits the bill there in the 1880s.

1:31:14And why one of the things that I read suggested that the Chalmers Church couldn't afford the upkeep for this man's. So in the 1880s it is passed on or it is sold to a George third, third full the thirdals themselves are also prominent set their families on Benjamin thirdal in particular.

1:31:37And it remains in the third family for several years, several decades, at which point it kind of sits empty from the 1920s for a bit where until it is picked up again in the 50s 40s and 50s.

1:31:52And there it really begins to gain a new life. The owners from them up until the current owners were excellent stewards of the building as can be seen in the photos.

1:32:06Yeah, I like the, in particular the one anecdote was captured was that there was a good period there where perhaps do in large part just mischievous neighborhood boys. It was believed the house was haunted as it sat empty book.

1:32:19No longer.

1:32:21Yeah.

1:32:23Other than that, I can do the statements.

1:32:28So we found that this property met for the nine criteria.

1:32:34So it meets criteria one as a representative and early example of the Georgian revival style farmhouse.

1:32:45It meets criteria in five because it yields information about the history of Chalmers Presbyterian Church meets criteria and seven because it is important defining maintaining and supporting the character of the area.

1:32:58And it meets criteria in eight because it serves as a physical functional and historical link to the surrounding area.

1:33:04Particularly because where this house is located predates the surrounding streets and developments around.

1:33:12Green Street and Suffolk Street. So, 4 of 9.

1:33:17Happy to take any questions from the committee.

1:33:21Sorry, this I'm embarrassed by this. I think my headphone cut out.

1:33:30Earlier Jack, could you just, and I think you talked about.

1:33:34Why the designation process for this building was started. It seems to me all the check marks for criteria and I'm just curious to know.

1:33:44Was this brought forward by the owners.

1:33:47Yeah, that's right.

1:33:49In early in the summer, we were contacted by the owners requesting that we consider it for designation and because they're able to provide us with such a good head start with the research.

1:34:01It was relatively easy to put this together in the last couple of weeks.

1:34:05Sounds like a good news story. I like that.

1:34:08Yeah, but I've read the conversations.

1:34:12Which accounts.

1:34:15They're very passionate about the history of the property and.

1:34:20I don't think it's too much to share, but 1 of the owners is.

1:34:25British and I think they have a different attitude towards heritage conservation.

1:34:31So, less less of those less of the misinformation that we were talking about earlier. Yeah, they passed on to me the 1 of the prior owners came from a very similar.

1:34:41A very similar location to where they were from in England. So they felt a bit of a kinship in that way.

1:34:47Small world.

1:34:50Alex.

1:34:53Just on your last point there, Jack, because it ties in with our earlier conversation.

1:34:58When we get to the stage of talking about how to communicate to the general public or to the realtor.

1:35:07Or to builders or anybody. I think it would be great to maybe have a chance to talk and.

1:35:15Have the experience of talking to these sort of sympathetic owners who are looking to get their homes designated and what they're drawn to and what they're they're looking for.

1:35:26Absolutely. Yeah, I think folks trust other property owners more than they might.

1:35:33And to tell them about designation. So that's that's a good idea.

1:35:37Either comments or questions.

1:35:45If not our motion, the recommended motion is that the comments provided by heritage, 12 members on the 59 green street.

1:35:51Cultural heritage valuation or it be provided to staff and council for their consideration. There is a typo in the.

1:35:58Recommended motion, I think street is duplicated. So.

1:36:01Thanks. I'll just read it 1 more time in through me on street saints when I was reading it.

1:36:05So the comments provided by heritage 12 members on 59 green street cultural heritage valuation report be provided to staff and council for consideration.

1:36:13Someone to move that please. Thank you Kelly a seconder David. Thank you. All those in favor.

1:36:19Just waiting for perfect and then Miranda possible.

1:36:27Perfect excellent thanks everyone. I have no chair announcements, but I will turn to back or and or Stephen.

1:36:35We have much I'll just note because of something Alex mentioned earlier, we'll have the next meeting. We'll also bring a list of the proposed meeting dates for heritage wealth 2025.

1:36:47And the committee can choose any day or time.

1:36:52As long as they communicate to us beforehand to make sure it doesn't interfere with other.

1:36:58Council meetings, but like 12 o'clock on Mondays is not set in stone. So if that's something that committee members would like to change, I encourage you to discuss amongst yourselves prior to.

1:37:11December's meeting to determine if there are better dates and to let me know and I can provide input on days that may not work.

1:37:21Yeah, maybe just a question or comment attached that then is if there once that schedule gets posted as far as the agenda. If there's conversation among committee members just include everyone in the email thread of that conversation for transparency. And then we can report back.

1:37:36Sorry chair, I'm going to jump in there. I will advise against including everybody because that will conduct a meeting.

1:37:44You'll be conducting a test of our characters called business at that time. So, as Jack said, maybe filtering comments through staff.

1:37:52Jack can then reply before the meeting saying, this is what we've heard. There's a summation of what we've heard, but just so we're not having that conversation electronically, which would conduct.

1:38:02So, no conversation between us. I specifically suggested an email asking for alternate days and times and then I can disperse that back to the committee.

1:38:12Any comments directly into Jack's Alex, do you have a question?

1:38:17Yeah, actually, just through the clerks. What we're at eight members currently correct. So what is quorum? Like what numbers is it for?

1:38:29On eight members is 5.

1:38:32Great.

1:38:36Steven said, you know, it's been shot with any others.

1:38:41Perfect. Someone would like to move our adjournment or today. Thank you. Kim. All those in favor.

1:38:50I'm going to guess your favorite German as well. Perfect. Thanks everyone. Enjoy the rest of November. Thank you.

1:38:58Bye bye.