Heritage Guelph

0:02Today at this bonus October 15th meeting of Heritage Guelph,

0:07I will start with our territorial acknowledgement.

0:10So as we gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work in

0:14Guelph, a city built over rich Indigenous histories.

0:18We are guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land,

0:22the people who live here today, and the generations to come.

0:25If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation,

0:29we should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude.

0:33This place, who called Guelph, has served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for

0:37many peoples over time, but more specifically the Atawandarank and the Haudenosaunee.

0:42This land is held as the treaty lands and territory with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation.

0:47Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman tract and is part of a long-established traditional

0:52hunting ground for the Six Nations of the Grand River.

0:55Many First Nations Inuit and Métis peoples who have come from across Turtle Island call Guelph home today.

1:03As we move into the meeting, I'll ask if there's any disclosure of pecuniary interest in the general

1:08nature thereof from committee members. We have no one unmute. We will say there's none and continue

1:19on into the workshop. And so we have the word West Heritage Conservation District Workshop 1 today

1:25with presentations from Christina and Meredith from ASI. Jack, I don't know if there's any

1:30introductions you need to do as part of that, but I can turn it over to you or to our guests.

1:39Thank you, Sarah. I'll provide a very brief introduction and then I'll hand it over to

1:45the project team. So welcome everybody. Thank you for coming to the first Heritage Guelph Workshop

1:53for the word West Heritage Conservation District Study. For the benefit of new members,

2:00a workshop is hosted to share information and receive information from the committee,

2:07but there's no expectation that the committee will pass a motion today.

2:14So far for the word HCD project, we've hosted one open house and we will be hosting

2:21the working group meeting on October 28th. Today, the project team from ASI, Rebecca Shara,

2:29and Meredith Stewart are here today and they're going to share their findings of the research

2:36they've conducted and the engagement that's been conducted to date with the committee and

2:42seek the committee's advice. So I'll turn it over to Rebecca Meredith. Great. Thanks, Jack.

2:49Hi, everyone. I'm Rebecca and I'm here with Meredith. If you want to just give away a

2:54quick narrative. Thank you so much for making the time to have your busy schedules to meet with us

3:01today. So in terms of our goals for the next hour, there's three things we're really hoping to achieve

3:11in the next hour. One is to provide everyone here with just a bit more understanding of why

3:21HCD is being studied in the Ward West and just provide some background as to sort of how we got

3:26here and why. And then we'll also walk through some of the emergent findings that have come through

3:36the research and consultation and survey work that we've done to date. And then we'll spend

3:44some time really asking for any reactions to what you've all heard from our presentation

3:52and to talk through any other feedback you might have about what you've heard or the preliminary

3:59boundary that we're going to talk about. So in terms of just time and rhythm today, Meredith and I

4:05are going to go back and forth through this slide deck. And we're hoping to spend about 25 minutes

4:14sharing information with the members here and then the remaining half an hour of time to have a

4:23discussion portion around any questions you might have from what you heard. And then we have some

4:30specific points of discussion that we're hoping you might have some reaction to. So that's our plan

4:36for today. Meredith, do you want to move to the next slide? So we wanted to provide just a bit of

4:45right off the top what we've heard so far. Next slide. So in terms of the study phase, there's

4:57been one public meeting and an online survey that we were able to launch just before the summer and

5:02host during the summer. And we wanted to share just a bit of what's started to come through

5:09both of those engagement processes. So at the public meeting that we had on June 27th,

5:18it was an open house format. Some of you I think were there. And attendees were provided information

5:26about the project, invited to join a walking tour of the neighborhood and provide feedback on a range

5:34of different topics about the ward. And one of the feedback activities that we had at that session was

5:42for attendees to draw a map of the area and really a sort of like the area in your mind's eye.

5:49You know, what are the important landmarks or streets, features or patterns that an individual

5:55kind of thinks of when they visit the ward or just think about the ward. And

6:02the hand-drawn map on the upper left is an example of one of those. And it helps us put together

6:10some different patterns and features that are resonating with either property owners or interested

6:20people in the ward's history. Participants were also asked at that Public Information Center to

6:26provide some reactions to boundary or sort of like what's the place that defines the ward.

6:35And as part of an online survey held during this over the summer and launched at the end of June,

6:41similar kinds of questions were asked of participants and some of the features that came out of both

6:47the Public Information Center and the online survey relate to, you'll see a word cloud at the

6:53bottom left, those are sort of repeated kinds of terms we've been hearing or qualities of the ward.

6:59And then the bulleted list of the Speed River, the railway, Ontario Street, Italian heritage,

7:05specific features like the double rainbow cafe, qualities like walkable community and sort of

7:11patterns of mixes of homes and industrial features are things that have been coming

7:15through the engagement events. Next slide. So some of what we've been hearing through the

7:27Public Information Center and the online survey relates to starting to ask people about the

7:32boundary of the area in relation to the area that we've been asked to look at as part of

7:40the Heritage Conservation District study. So what you see on this map on this slide here

7:46is an overlaying of all of what we've heard so far from attendees to the Public Information Center

7:57drawing the different boundaries of the ward. So you can see that there's really a range of

8:03responses with some people sort of thinking very broadly about the ward being a very large area,

8:08but then the darkest red that's like where the most responses or overlaps of boundaries have

8:16been occurring from people that have participated in this exercise. So you can see that the sort of

8:22the core points of agreement about the ward or the west area of the ward is really in this

8:29place defined by the railway in the north here on street in the east, York Road in the south,

8:35and the Speed River in the west. And this kind of exercise is continuing to help shape our

8:42understanding of what is the area that might serve as a conservation district in the west area of the

8:49ward. Next. So in terms of study area context and background, I just want to go through briefly

8:58a couple of slides that bring us to sort of what brought us to doing a Heritage Conservation District

9:06study, particularly in this area of the ward. Next. So I think as many people here probably know

9:15it's a historical neighborhood known historically as the St. Patrick's Ward and pictured here on

9:23this slide is 1906 Ward boundaries on the right. The ward's boundaries have changed over the years,

9:32which you can see on the left is a more contemporary map of the ward, but it's generally

9:40understood as a place part of sort of larger historical area described as the ward. Next.

9:50In terms of planning policies, various municipal policies have been developed over time that

9:57covered the area that we've been asked to look at, including land use strategy, official plan

10:04policies, secondary plan, streetscape manual and urban growth center all have policies relating

10:12to this area. And what's important about that or I think just good context is all of those

10:20policies that apply to parts of the area that we're looking at really signal anticipated

10:27growth and change in this area close to the downtown. Next. Another sort of characteristic

10:39of the ward that I think has led to pursuing a conservation district study in this area is there's

10:46a really high concentration of properties listed on the municipal heritage register in this area,

10:52and you can see that on this map. The light green parcels are listed and then the sort of yellow

10:58and orange are properties that are designated. So that's simply, you know, a signal and also a

11:06rationale that this is an area that's already understood as having a concentration of features

11:12and a conservation district might be an effective way to try to develop a conservation framework for

11:19a number of properties. Next. Then the next sort of piece of work that laid the groundwork for this

11:29conservation district study is the cultural heritage action plan which was completed in 2020,

11:37which you'll be familiar with the plan identified 29 candidate cultural heritage landscapes,

11:43including four areas within this sort of broad ward area with the ward west having the highest

11:50concentration of listed properties and also the section of this this bigger ward area that's included

12:00in the downtown urban growth center and the cultural heritage action plan identified at that time that

12:06this ward west area, the HL 23 that you see on this map, was a high priority to pursue and study

12:15as a conservation district. The other three areas of the east

12:22north and industrial ward areas were identified as medium priorities in the cultural heritage action

12:28plan. Next. So the study area. So the study area that was established at the outset of the study

12:40follows the boundary of the ward west area that the cultural heritage action plan identified. So

12:47that that map I just walked through really set the preliminary starting point for the

12:54conservation district study, which the city then issued a terms of reference for at the end of last

13:01year and which we officially kicked off in the spring and then really in June when we had the

13:09first public information center in this area is is our starting point for thinking about

13:14is this place a conservation district and if so what kind of significance or or important

13:23characteristics does it have. So that's a bit of context to how we got here. I'm going to turn it over

13:29to Meredith to share some of the findings coming out of the historical research and survey that

13:35we've completed today. Thanks Rebecca. So like Rebecca just said, in addition to review those

13:43policies, we've also been conducting historical research and have done a survey of the study area

13:50to see what's on the ground today and try and understand through that historical research

13:54why the area developed the way it did, what looks the way it does. And so I'm going to go over some

14:00of that historical piece. Wait. No. So first, we have considered the geography of the study area

14:14and what are some influencing factors and features that have really shaped how and where

14:20things developed. So the study area is sitting in low lands of the Eremosa spillway and a glacial

14:26spillway and is surrounded by drumlands which formed St. George's Hill, Catholic Hill and then to the

14:32south there's just a lot of high land and then this is laying in low land and the Eremosa spillway

14:39caused quite a lot of flooding that really deterred development in that area for quite a long time.

14:46So while other areas of the city begin to develop as Guelph is becoming established as a town and

14:52then a city, the area that is now what we're calling Ward West really was slower because of that

15:01flood plain that really didn't welcome building or construction in the area.

15:08And because there wasn't a lot of interest in building in that area, it wasn't until the 1850s

15:19when the Board of Trade successfully lobbied the town council to approve a railroad connection

15:23to Toronto that we really see things starting to happen in that area. So the introduction of

15:29a connection to the Grand Trunk Railway through downtown Guelph led to land speculation in the

15:34areas along the proposed route which includes the Ward. So while serving on the Grand Trunk Railway,

15:41Sir John A. Macdonald required a large swath of land in the area that had been annexed to the

15:46town which became St. Patrick's Ward and that area of land in 1855 he had surveyed and developed

15:58or divided into residential lots and that formed a subdivision. So on the right you can see that

16:041855 registered plan that reflects that sort of land speculation that happened at that time.

16:11And much of the road network that we see still today in that west part of the Ward in Ward West

16:18was established during that period. So Neve Street, Ontario Street, York Road cutting through,

16:22those are still persistent today and are sort of, they don't follow a typical gridded pattern of this

16:29kind of subdivision you'd usually see in that period. So in the 1880s the Guelph Junction Railway

16:40which was leased by the Canadian Pacific Railway was introduced as competition to that earlier

16:45Grand Trunk Railway from the 1850s and this rail line ran through what would become St. Patrick's

16:52Ward and brought with it an opportunity to build large-scale industrial operations and manufacturing

16:58and so we see a change in use happening in that area because of this new rail line that's been brought in.

17:06Prior to the new rail line that had come in, industries tended to be located along the

17:11Speed River and they were sort of medium scale tend to be textile manufacturing that type of

17:16thing that would take advantage of that access to water. But now with the rail line we have

17:21industrial development that is happening throughout the neighborhood and close in close proximity to

17:28that rail line. And this development was also further propelled by James Moultralion who purchased

17:37400 acres of land between the rivers and Victoria Road and in around 1906, I should say,

17:46different decade or century, he was offering 12 to 16 acres free of charge to industries that were

17:54willing to open their operations in Guelph and so large and lasting industrial companies like the

18:00International Malibu Iron Company, the Guelph Stove Company, they were very attracted by this offer

18:05and moved into that area as a result of this offer of land. So in order to make that profitable

18:12for himself, Lyon then subdivided all the remaining property into residential lots, very

18:17narrow lots that were sold to workers and their families. So this resulted in a bit of a scheme of

18:24mixed industrial residential that was seen as sort of complete by 1924 and brought in factories that

18:32employed about 2,000 local residents which about doubled the population of Guelph at the time.

18:41So into the 20th century, much of the ward we see then filling in with residential properties on

18:47those narrow lots that were surrounding these large-scale industrial buildings that were coming

18:53in in the early 20th century. And we see now active industry happening still a little bit along the

19:02speed river but mainly along the industrial lines were cutting through the center of the ward

19:07and then closer to Victoria Road where further spur lines were developed.

19:13In 1903, the city acquired Sleiman Breweries bankrupt Guelph radial railway which was used

19:19to carry passengers and freight. Cars throughout Guelph included the ward and stopped at various

19:25plants and factories that were in the neighborhood as well so we have even further rail activity

19:30that's continuing that industrial growth. This period also saw a wave of immigration in Guelph

19:37with many newcomers settling in the ward. The area was a popular choice for newcomers as it was

19:43cheaper compared to other areas of the neighborhood. Those floodland areas were not as appealing to

19:50other people so it was cheaper to buy property there and it was also close to employment opportunities

19:57with all the factories and warehouses that were in the neighborhood so it was a huge draw

20:02to people who were moving into Guelph from elsewhere. So the immigrants that settled in

20:08the ward in the 20th century were mainly Italian Polish, Ukrainian and Irish. The Italians were

20:14the first significant non-English speaking population in Guelph after 1900 so it was quite a boom in the

20:20Italian immigrant population. Many of the first generation citizens that were born and raised

20:27in Guelph were born around or living in Morris, Ferguson, Elizabeth Street and Metcalfe Street

20:35or not Huron and Alice so that's what sort of considered the heart of the Italian community

20:41in Guelph and many of those who settled in the neighborhood converted part of their homes into

20:46a shop or storefront so what we see during this period is that the ward had its own sort of economy.

20:53There's a store on nearly every corner and people went there to socialize, to eat, to play cards,

20:58listen to music, buy groceries, hang out. While walkability was very important to employment so

21:05having access to factories and things so too was it for goods and services in the neighborhood and

21:11we see that there's a lot of shops that are opening up and becoming these social points in the community.

21:18A popular example from the 1910s to 60s period would be Valerio Te's Groschurettia

21:27and Subpost Office Number 5 was also attached to Dee's Coffee Bar and that's at 134 Alice Street

21:34and that operated until 1975 but today has been converted back fully to a residence

21:41so there's no trace of it today but it was a very major social spot and place of commerce

21:47within the neighborhood during that period. Industrial operations were at their height

21:54from the 30s to the 60s in the ward but then there became sort of a decline in rail traffic

22:01in the 1950s as shipments by truck became more popular as road networks improved and that sort

22:07of stalled annual growth of an industry in the ward and then the Canadian Pacific Railway which

22:13was operating along the junction line ended passenger service in the 1960s and then closed

22:18its freight and express sheds in 1969 so there was a decline happening in the large industrial

22:25operations in the area in larger industrial parks opening elsewhere and Guelph also

22:30brought a decline in the industry that was happening in the neighborhood and so we start to see

22:36it the neighborhood shifting towards close more closely what we see today which is still some

22:41industry but also sort of small-scale medium-scale residential happening in the neighborhood

22:50so that's very quickly how we got from where things were to where we are today and then

22:57we'll hand it back over to Rebecca. Thanks Meredith so we're just going to move into

23:06sort of the next chunk of information before we open up for discussion and I just wanted to

23:14walk through a couple slides relating generally to heritage conservation districts you know what are

23:23what are they used for or why does the place pursue them and then to talk about a couple

23:32different approaches with respect to phasing heritage conservation districts in really big

23:39areas and then sort of different ways to that municipalities have named heritage conservation

23:46districts next slide so to start off around you know why why is a conservation district

23:58pursued by any municipality not just in the board is is really in relation to change and its

24:08conservation districts are not about limiting change or prohibiting change but but really

24:15to bring a heritage lens or perspective to change that is is going to happen so I think that's a

24:24really important starting point that conservation districts aren't aren't seen as as a tool to

24:31kind of freeze a place in time but really are often triggered by situations where a place is poised

24:40for intensification or you know a lot of development activity and it is a tool to you know direct that

24:54intensification or development activity through a heritage lens so in the ward west

25:01there are density targets that have been outlined in the urban growth center that

25:05are going to be applicable that are applicable to the west half of the area we're looking at

25:11also there's a range of vacant and aging industrial lands and identified in the area

25:19and those are often ideal or likely areas for redevelopment and along with those kinds of

25:29redevelopment opportunities there can be any range of you know building permits or or development

25:36applications that that are going to sort of unfold as a result that that are going to bring

25:42change to the the neighborhood um at the level of of streets or or the neighborhood neighborhood as a

25:50whole so it's really within this context that that a district is pursued to to provide a framework

25:58around not as I said how to stop that change but but how to shape it so it's sensitive to to this

26:05place and and the sort of the cultural qualities that the neighborhood and and stakeholders want

26:15to see sustained as as it continues to to grow and evolve next so what would an hcd do in the ward

26:24so just building on on some of the ideas I just just shared the primary goals for an hcd in an area

26:31like the ward are to guide change and and to maintain and sustain what's what's valued and one

26:38of the tasks in conducting an hcd study is to really understand in detail what are the features

26:47what are the patterns what are the qualities what are the experiences that are valued and

26:55should be maintained and sustained as as part of ongoing change that is going to occur

27:03and this involves understanding as meredith brought you through in brief sort of the the

27:08historical evolution of a place from you know 150 years ago and earlier to to today um and

27:17inventorying various features in the neighborhood from buildings to to streets to

27:26sort of circulation patterns and and really trying trying to nail down what what are the the core

27:35aspects that the community wants to see maintained and anchoring new development

27:44as that unfolds in the coming years next so we wanted to talk a bit about the idea of

27:54districts in phases just just as information for for the heritage advisory committee because

28:01there's been since we started the project and particularly at the public information

28:08center we heard from from various participants at the public meeting and as you saw in that

28:13sort of mapping of of different boundaries that that people think about in relation to the ward

28:22is there's a sense that the area we're looking at is part of a much bigger bigger hole bigger area

28:29historically known as St. Patrick's Ward and consisting of these sort of northeast west

28:35industrial parts and we wanted to show that generally in in various municipalities there are

28:45there are lots of areas like this where there's a very big historical area and often a municipality

28:54will sort of take it in chunks or take it in phases particularly when when thinking about

29:01a conservation district historically many you know neighborhoods or areas are are quite large

29:09involving many blocks of of land but when pursuing a conservation district the size of the district

29:18needs to be manageable from from the perspective of completing the study but then also implementing

29:26it so we wanted to share that it's it's pretty typical to take this kind of targeted approach

29:36that the city has has pursued here starting with you know sort of the the area with the most sort

29:42of documentation known features and sensitivity to change which is the west side and then gradually

29:48over time considering you know are there other parts of this bigger historical area that might be

29:55like a ward phase two or ward phase three which Cavichetown in in Toronto is a good example

30:04Cavichetown area has five conservation districts that have been established between 2004 and 2024

30:14so just wanted to to share that with with the the Heritage Advisory Committee as it's a point of

30:20conversation that that continues I think or will continue as part of this this project.

30:27Next the other topic we wanted to just touch on really briefly is is naming conventions and

30:36this is something that I think crapped up right out of the gate on the project of the Ward West

30:42name and it not resonating with the the general public and Jack is that a fair way to characterize

30:50some of the reaction or or that I think so yeah or that it may have been been confusing or or not

30:58a name that anyone who actually lives there uses so we wanted to to chat a bit about that

31:07you know a name for the conservation district will be needed at some point in time

31:12and right now it's it's called the Ward West but I think that's something we want to continue

31:16exploring with people and there's a couple different ways the conservation districts tend

31:24to be approached by name there's the sort of like historic or neighbourhood name

31:31like in Branford Victoria Park or Victoria Square like that's that's the name of the place on NAPS

31:38or the village of Rockliff Park in in Ottawa so like a very like historically attributed name

31:46then there's like the really simple like location and descriptor where often like street names will

31:52be used so Yorkville Hazelton Avenue in in Toronto or Cookstown downtown like it it literally takes

32:01the current place name and and applies it to to the conservation district or other approaches

32:09have been to kind of be a little more forward thinking or aspirational about kind of what might

32:20a conservation district become known as so in Godrich a conservation plan is in place for

32:29the square and that of course is is the downtown but but the idea being that that's the destination

32:35in its own right or the commercial core in Colbert being the the key anchoring feature of that

32:45HCD so wanted to leave that there because I think it's something

32:53that I think that's something that I think members here might have some thoughts about either now

32:59or or as we we go through the study over the coming months but it will it'll be something that I think

33:06that will will need to continue to sort of wrestle with and and get right so there's sort of so it's

33:16meaningful um finally I think this is our last slide before we move into our discussion period

33:23so we wanted to share with you um some on in progress findings that have been coming out of our work

33:33so the slide in front of you you can see in patched lines um the sort of the dashed line that's

33:39that's the study area that that we were asked to look at and that came out of the cultural

33:44heritage action plan in 2020 and we've been been looking at um the boundary for for for the

33:52conservation district and um you know based on the research that Meredith walked you through the

33:58survey of buildings and streets that we've been doing also talking to the public and stakeholders

34:05been asking the question of okay is that boundary is it making sense should it be smaller should it

34:10be bigger um how does it relate to to what we're seeing on the ground and we're starting to to

34:18think about a slightly modified um enlarged boundary for for this potential conservation

34:26district so what you see here in that brown brownish yellow color is a working working

34:32boundary that we're we're thinking about um it's got fuzzy edges for that very reason that this is

34:39this is in progress subject to refinement and and certainly feedback um but this is this is where

34:48we're focusing right now and just to to bring you through it very very briefly so the revised

34:56boundary that you see here maintains you know the speed and Aramosa rivers at the western edge but

35:03expands north to the rail line north of Elizabeth street and follows the length of Huron street

35:11from the rail line to the river the boundary presented here as I said intentionally has blurred

35:16edges as it's still under development and and being refined and the the extensions have have really

35:24brought we've been thinking about them because they capture some some pieces of the story of the

35:32ward either from a kind of development perspective or what's on the ground today that that are really

35:39consistent with and connected with those other parts that are in that that sort of core area

35:46so I'll I'll leave it there and I will turn to our our next slide which is sort of our our transition

35:54into our discussion component so we've got it's 1238 I understand some members may need to leave

36:05by 115 so we wanted to try to to really have about 30 minutes of of time right now to hear from you

36:15around just any clarifying questions you may have in relation to to what Meredith and I have

36:23presented and then we've got some key key questions that we'd like to to work through

36:32and then just very briefly touch on next steps so Meredith you want to go to the next slide

36:39so we thought we could maybe take this in in sort of two parts first first off if there's any sort of

36:44clarifying questions from anything we presented so far that would benefit from some further explanation

36:51and in terms of how this can flow we thought just given the the number of people

37:01if individuals have questions you can raise your hands and I'll just call on you and

37:06we can work through questions that way rather than using the chat I don't think

37:12we need to use that feature but I will open it up does anyone have any questions about the

37:22the material we presented so far so I'm just going to call on individuals so Kelly got your hand raised

37:36hi everybody hi Kelly is there anything more specific about why the name didn't resonate was it

37:44because everyone thinks of the neighborhood as the ward yeah it was the west the west was it the west

37:49I think so yeah kind of guessed okay yeah okay jack was there anything else you wanted to add about the

38:00the name no I think it's that's right it's the people don't really see the word as a west and east

38:09but they're not necessarily looking at it through the lens of cultural heritage landscapes so

38:15yeah the name name was a bit of a flop but I didn't come up with it so don't don't blame me

38:22thanks jack um Alex you've got your hand up thank you um I just wanted to take a step back

38:31in slide 10 I'm just looking at it on my computer but you know we were talking about

38:39pursuing an hcd the study area could you really talk to why

38:48you'd be wanting to pursue an hcd rather than just part four designations for

38:53uh properties that are listed on the useful register at the moment sure jack do you do I can

39:06take take this question on or was there anything from the city's perspective that you want to touch

39:11on on top I'll note that it was council that directed us to conduct this study so that's

39:16the primary reason that it's being done but I I think Rebecca if you want to talk to sure

39:25why an hcd specifically is helpful for areas like this yeah so I think there's sort of two

39:33two things um to emphasize about about a conservation district that's different than

39:41an individual designation such as a part four one is a conservation district

39:49um views or understands an area in relation to um the the patterns or or relationships between

40:01parts so um uh how an individual building or a streetscape um communicates parts of of the

40:12areas history um and often that's a very different kind of um uh analysis and and research then

40:25then happens for for an individually designated property which which looks at the property

40:31really in and of itself and not necessarily in in relation to the things around it so um

40:39an area like the ward because the I think um feedback that's that's occurred to date really

40:49sees it as what's interesting about it is in part it's individual buildings but it's also the

40:56relationships and the combination of features that stack up together to create something quite

41:01different than if you were to take each one of those individual parts and sort of park them

41:06in in isolation um so that's that's one I think reason why um the the approach of a district

41:15versus individual designations has been thought about here the other is um a district because

41:23it's an area as opposed to an individual property it takes in everything within that area including

41:31like important historical features but it also takes in um you know pieces of property that aren't

41:38necessarily historically important like a vacant lot and it creates a framework then to guide new

41:44development or change on lots that in and of themselves don't have any particularly outstanding

41:52historical features but are understood to be in a place or an area that would benefit from some

42:01sensitivity so I think that's the other reason um that the the perspective of of approaching this as

42:09as a district um has been pursued as opposed to um sort of individual park forward designations

42:19um Jack if I could just clarify so the the direction from council was that specifically for

42:26an hcd or was that as a part of the direction to fulfill CHAPS directives?

42:35No that that was a specific motion passed um I think councillor Downer tabled it in May 2023

42:43that the ward west specifically be studied as an hcd. Thank you for that um maybe just um

42:55I guess I guess the the challenge that I'm trying to reconcile is is that you know hcds come with

43:06a large amount of additional guidelines for buildings that don't fall within or aren't considered

43:14heritage buildings and so I think it's it'll be interesting to see as we go through this process

43:20with the ward west is what does that look like change within the neighborhood consistently?

43:36Thank you Alex. Does anyone else have clarifying questions before we move into some more focused

43:45discussion questions? If anything arises um you know after the meeting Jack's always available as

43:54well Jack to receive any clarifying questions so Meredith do you want to go to the next slide and

44:00there's um sort of three specific questions we were hoping you can weigh in on so at this stage

44:13there's sort of three questions that that are really important one is are there any major

44:19historical themes that we're missing um and this is you know when we say historical themes you know

44:25that's we're speaking pretty broadly um but are there are there kind of characteristics or types

44:32of development or or periods of significance that um we've we haven't touched on in relation to the ward

44:41and then the second question is are there any characteristics or features of the ward that

44:45are important to include and or consider um and I think that's that's one that that there's probably

44:52some really good feedback from this group on and then of course what are your reactions to this

44:56preliminary boundary uh and and why so um can I invite any member who's feeling um like they want

45:08to start off and I can call on individuals as as they raise their hands or I can I can just

45:15round table it if there's there's uh no uh no one uh eager to put their hand up right off the top

45:37Alex thank you for volunteering yeah I'll bite um I think it's been touched on already

45:43with the port to us but um I think one of the themes that jumps out a lot with this area you know

45:52historical but also at this present time is is the balance of sort of industrial or employment

46:01to residential um I'm having a hard time hearing Alex's audio is anyone else having a hard time hearing him

46:11just me hi is that better that's better thank you Alex sorry I'm recovering from a bit of a cold so

46:18I'll speak up okay thank you yeah so I the the theme that I wanted to to touch on is the balance of

46:26industrial and employment properties to residential properties in the ward and I think you identified

46:31that already um in moving forward with the study um is part of that study involved identifying

46:40which properties are zoned commercially or or industrially versus those that are

46:46specifically residential uh and how would that impact some of the suggested guidelines

46:57so I can maybe touch on on the the question um following through from I'm sorry the the

47:05comment about the importance of the the balance um or the recurring theme of

47:10sort of combined residential industrial kind of area so during the study phase we certainly do

47:17look at existing um land uses and and zoning from from a really kind of

47:28for purposes of classification um recognizing that zoning doesn't necessarily reflect the

47:39the sort of the look and the feel of the the property um so our our streetscape survey we

47:47always pair with an understanding of of existing zoning and land uses to better get at kind of

47:54what are what are the on-the-ground qualities that we're we're seeing um so during the study phase

48:00it's really just information gathering it's during the plan phase that um

48:05um uh we would be making more detailed um guidelines related to different types of

48:19properties in the district that would um consider existing zoning um but the plan itself wouldn't

48:30um result in recommended kind of zoning bylaw uh changes with respect to land use

48:42but we would be building on what's what's already in place um does that help address the question

48:50generally I think I can't really get into too much more detail but that's that's generally the

48:55approach of how land use and zoning um figures into the study phase versus the planned phase

49:02so just to clarify yeah will we in the next phase of this study

49:10we'll be here back will we be receiving information regarding

49:16existing land use in in this the study area as part of the sort of discussion of

49:24that spirit yeah I think you know we'd we'd expect to see you know at the end of the study phase

49:33there's going to be a report out and um that report out would document what the the existing

49:41zoning and land uses are um and that would be be available to the public

49:53I had a follow-up question unless somebody else wants to jump in I don't see any other hands raised so

50:01let's um let's do it so this is this is I'm skipping down now to the boundary just while I'm

50:08sure mic off um is there is there any particular reason that sort of the area around I think it's

50:19talking called the upper knees or knee village so this would be like Wellington to Wyden Street to

50:27sort of the train tracks while Central Station is that is that something that's

50:32like could potentially be considered as part of the Lord's study I think it's it's an area that falls

50:39outside of the anticipated downtown study that is following that path and can I invite Meredith can

50:51you hover on with your cursor on the area and we can just make sure with Alex that we're we're

51:00looking at the right area can you see my I guess it's a hand yes I've got it hovering yes I see okay

51:10so you said Wyndham yeah to Wellington so coming west from the speedway yeah

51:18there's an area that comes up to the train tracks yeah and if you hook that around

51:26sort of Wyndham Street uh Wellington Street story I think essentially where am I at am I right

51:40where it says speed river on that map oh I see yeah so Alex you're you're inquiring about the other

51:47side of the speed river that's not part of the downtown conservation district area do I have

51:54yeah and it's also a preliminary study not part of this graph yeah and just I guess asking whether

52:03this would be an area that you would consider to be the most part of your study um I think what I

52:11can say is it all depends on why someone's suggesting we look at it um I don't think I've ever done a

52:19conservation district study where new areas haven't been suggested or inquired about by

52:26by members of the public or or stakeholders and and we always consider you know what are the reasons

52:32that someone is thinking about it is it um some some qualities on the ground that are that are

52:39very connected to the area we are looking at or is there some historical connection that someone's

52:44aware of so if there's um sort of more more information you'd like to provide related to

52:52that area Alex that's um that can that can be useful I think generally you know if we're going to

53:01we hadn't really contemplated looking at the other side of the river um from from the perspective of

53:10of the just kind of development evolution of focusing in on the the area that was surveyed

53:22as the ward as a residential area and to accommodate these industrial land uses in in a pretty like

53:29discreet cohesive way which is which is fully on on the side of of the river so

53:37um it's not impossible but I think we'd want to better understand sort of what are what are some

53:41things people are thinking about that area um just oh Alex do you want to did you want to have

53:50something are you okay I think just you know Mike I don't have the paperwork to back it up but um

53:58I think there's there's areas within that neighborhood that may be connected to the

54:03history of consistent with sort of the things that we look at okay well we'll make sure to

54:20to take a look at that and thank you Alex so Kelly's got her hand up and then Miranda did you have

54:27some comments you wanted to share yes but Kelly can go first if she wants to yeah okay Kelly

54:35sorry guys I just took me a sec oh took me a second to um get back to the right window um

54:41can I just offer um another sort of thought on the boundary which is um

54:48I would just say that it's just really cut right short of the ICC um I think that might go over

55:00like a real lead balloon within the Italian community that is a hugely important building

55:06I know it's right near Huron if it was me drawing this map I would make sure that that building is

55:15in the whole shebang because I really think that so much of the story of the ward involves Italian

55:21immigrants and a lot of the names you see on the plaque sort of at the the front of the ICC when

55:27you walk in like these are names everybody knows you know there's just historic families and stuff

55:37so um I when I first saw this I actually thought oh that looks really small but then I gave it some

55:45thought because I do think that there is value in keeping it small um I I'll be honest I don't at all

55:52consider across the river the ward I'm not sure what it is but it wouldn't to me like to me it's

55:59sort of Alice Street is almost right in the heart of it and then it branches out from there so that's

56:04my own thoughts but because there's other streets on this that I was like oh well that's the ward

56:09but I think it's really this is it's just this I like the boundary that's just my only contribution

56:16is that I would not have the the ICC on the border of it I would absolutely think that that should

56:23be included within the whole thing thanks Kelly and I it's the Italian community center ICC

56:32I just want to make sure I'm not assuming that the ICC is the Italian Canadian club

56:38oh sorry yes yeah where we had the the PIC yes yeah yeah right and it's been there for

56:46I don't know I guess it must have been in the 60s I'm guessing I as long as yeah as long as I can

56:50remember so it's also the home of the Italian festival when they have it they haven't had it for

56:56a few years I don't think but yeah that's sort of the the home base and it expands out over that

57:02parking lot that borders on York or sorry Elizabeth yeah York so and then Kelly if you're done I just

57:12want to also make a comment on the boundary you know I'm a qualified born and raised spent lots

57:19of time in the ward met my husband there for me the ward boundary is really Victoria road

57:26all the way to the you know where you've identified the western edge of the boundary

57:34or and there's a little shaded area around there that Alex was referencing as well

57:40I guess knowing what's coming from in terms of the change to the heritage registry with all these

57:47properties dropping off in January I guess my question is why are we restricting this to

57:55Ward West I recognize maybe there are workload considerations I'd just like to understand what

58:02why we're not looking at doing sort of the word as a whole and this certainly solves the name problem

58:10for the heritage conservation district why why not do more and expand it out to Victoria

58:17where it looks like the vast majority of the participants in the boundary drawing exercise

58:22considered the boundary edge to be so I can respond to that in jackets there's anything further you

58:32want to to add from from the city's perspective so I I think there's a couple different things

58:45that underpin the benefits of a phased approach and and I think that's that's precisely what

58:53what's at the heart of the the question Miranda you know do you take it all in one shot or do you

58:59kind of put it into pieces and one is you know there there is a different land use planning

59:06context right on on this side of of the ward that is is different than what is going to happen

59:15on the other side of the ward and a plan like a conservation district plan

59:20and in my experience is most effective when it applies to an area that is relatively consistent

59:29in terms of its future as opposed to sort of taking a very big area part of which is going to

59:36you know dramatically change in this way and another part of the area not changing in in that

59:41same way um a conservation district plan can be very unwieldy when when you have have that big of

59:49an area um not just the the size of the area but an area that has quite different kind of

59:57land use planning objectives or or vision so that's that's one one perspective I

1:00:04I think about and I think which makes sense here to to kind of look at the west side first the other

1:00:10is from the perspective also of doing these district studies there there's a a requirement

1:00:19to really demonstrate a consistency of patterns and and one thing that I think we're we're seeing

1:00:27just from the technical work of the research and analysis of what's on the ground is is there is

1:00:33this kind of shift in um the development history and the age of buildings and the network of how

1:00:44the place functions on the east side of Huron Street which you can kind of see quite quite easily in

1:00:50this on this map that east of Huron it's it's a grid pattern um you don't have the same kind of

1:00:58relationship of streets to one another and and pedestrian experiences and there is a slightly

1:01:05kind of um not as old wave of development that's that's occurring on the east side that's not to

1:01:12say that there weren't buildings um you know being constructed east of Huron Street um you know in the

1:01:21in the 19th century or even early 20th century but there is a sort of consistency of pattern

1:01:27and um age of buildings that's that's different um east and west of Huron so so that's the other

1:01:35reason I think there's there's merit for the city to kind of think about these in in phases and

1:01:41pieces um which as I said isn't dissimilar to what a lot of municipalities have done when when

1:01:48confronting these really kind of amazing areas where there's a lot of historic um fabric um but

1:01:57you know spread across a rather large area that might have different land use planning priorities

1:02:02um Jack anything further you want to add to that to help clarify the direction yeah I'll

1:02:10just add um so council did direct us specifically to study the word west uh not the entirety of

1:02:17what most people consider the ward and they gave us like a budget associated with the study area of

1:02:23that size um so we there are some financial limitations here but also I think one of the

1:02:31slides that was shown earlier uh showed the kind of the density of heritage buildings that are

1:02:37located within this portion of the ward yeah and I'll remind members that part of bill 23 was that

1:02:4525 of the properties within a heritage district must now meet those two criteria

1:02:51for designation so the the further what is that east we go I think the harder

1:02:58that may be for us to meet because like even when you're walking around this area of the

1:03:04ward it's it's it's clearly older than the areas towards victoria road so I mean if it was if it was

1:03:14up to me and if money was unlimited and time was unlimited I would love to uh designate the whole

1:03:20area from the river all the way to victoria but for now with with council's direction and with the

1:03:27resources that we have uh we're focusing on this portion of the ward and with the um shaded area

1:03:38expanded I'm looking at slide 23 here same one sorry we're all looking at the same one I'm looking

1:03:43at my largest screen um based on the budget uh limitations that you mentioned Jack is expanding

1:03:50the boundary to include the uh the area on this slide feasible yes yeah that should be they

1:03:58correct me rebecca but that that's been surveyed as part of this because we when looking at a study

1:04:05area you also look at kind of adjacent areas nearby so that's been included in this phase of the study

1:04:13okay thanks thanks Miranda any other comments or questions from members on really anything

1:04:24we've discussed are these particular questions about the sort of the stories that are important

1:04:29the characteristics that are important in the area that we're thinking about

1:04:34Miranda you've got your hand up I just want to make sure do you have okay Kelly you've got another

1:04:39comment um yeah I actually I really I'm really glad you pointed out about sort of the grid

1:04:47that starts after here on because I hadn't thought of it that way but that that does make it feel more

1:04:53like a a modern city I guess um then this sort of hickily-pickily stuff that's in the heart of the

1:05:02ward um I I just would also maybe throw out there I feel like um I do hate to see some of these

1:05:16like lollipop streets I call them down off of York road that go down to the river I kind of hate to

1:05:22see those not on it maybe that's just me um the access to the trail system is is really kind of one of the

1:05:33um maybe that's more of a modern thing I don't I don't know I I'm just spitballing right now but I

1:05:40I have a fondness for those streets and I they've long sort of been like a secret

1:05:46feel like they've been like a secret gem that if you know they're there you can

1:05:50you're like park tourism you you drive in and park on Kingsville or whatever and um go down with the

1:05:57the trail system so that being said I recognize that those most of those streets you know you've got

1:06:071950s bungalows mixed in with you know uh red brick two stories so it is it's it's a bit of

1:06:14maybe it's a bit of an odd one but um I just wanted to sort of say that I I feel like I get it

1:06:21that going as far east as Victoria road really puts this in a we're really getting into a lot

1:06:30more of a walkable normal neighborhood like we have all over the city it's just it's just got

1:06:36its own flavor because it's the ward um maybe Stevenson to me is kind of where it it really

1:06:46changes on that degree but um yeah that's all thank you Kelly Alex get some additional comments

1:06:59yeah and this might be better directed to Jack

1:07:04with the the new boundary that's been outlined here that goes all the way to Elizabeth Street

1:07:13has there been any consultation with the property owners

1:07:18who is the woods development group from the factory building that's on hero as far as their

1:07:24is proposed study area yes yeah they came to the open house in uh June and it did the their cultural

1:07:35heritage guy Ian Panabaker used to be the heritage planner at the city so we have open lines of

1:07:42communication and I can maybe just add to that given that this is a work in progress it hasn't been

1:07:52you're you're our first the first place we've shopped this so it hasn't been been released

1:07:59beyond here but certainly if this tracks forward as as a recommendation it will be key to ensure

1:08:08engagement with those affected property owners but I think the the the the the sorry the mail outs

1:08:17for the engagement program did go beyond this original study area anyway to to jack's point that

1:08:25Woods was at the the pick in June because we always kind of contemplate that that you might end up

1:08:34extending a boundary but also even if you're not in a boundary but right beside it you still may be

1:08:41an interested party so that's why we always kind of do a bigger mail out and invite less than

1:08:50than just those properties so those particularly woods and the development there will be an

1:08:59important piece of moving this forward any other we're at 111 and I think I'd heard someone had to

1:09:09depart by by 115 so conscious of time any other questions or comments anyone would like to share

1:09:17about the the study the information shared today or some of these key questions before we move into

1:09:22next steps Kelly I just want to thank you guys that was really cool I actually feel like I thought

1:09:28I knew everything there was to know about the ward I grew up so close to it and spent so much time

1:09:32there but that was I really appreciate all the hard work and and learning more about sort of the

1:09:39steps of settling in there so I just want to thank you for that it's very interesting thank you

1:09:43thank you Kelly and and I want to say ditto we chatted at the the pick and I don't know if you

1:09:50remember I but I'm with you and I learned a lot from you as well and I think it was your your

1:09:56father was it your father that was with you yeah yes my dad wouldn't stop talking about you know

1:10:02bootlegging and all kinds of nefarious stories from but it was it was it was very enriching so

1:10:10so thank you um Meredith do you want to move to our next slide but I think touches on next steps

1:10:18and where we go from here great so um so next steps so we are in the middle of October right now

1:10:28um and we've got a lot of um technical work and engagement happening over the next couple of

1:10:35months so as Jack mentioned our next step is we have a working group meeting at the end of October

1:10:41so that's a project specific working group that's been established the ward ward west working group

1:10:50consisting um and jack jump in um mostly of people property owners but also not necessarily only

1:11:00property owners um from the ward um and uh we did this in the the downtown as well this working

1:11:07group is really established to to provide feedback and and testing of ideas um and and to act as

1:11:14another sort of focused focused group of feedback um on the technical work that's happening um jack

1:11:21anything you wanted to add to the working group um nope the committee appointed Cali to represent the

1:11:30heritage gulf on the work right amazing seeing Cali later this month okay excellent um so some

1:11:37of the other work that's happening over the next couple of months is ongoing analysis of

1:11:41individual building um survey information so Meredith um was out in the area photographing

1:11:49and collecting information about individual structures and streets um across the ward so

1:11:55we're going to continue compiling and analyzing um that data um and adding to to our historical

1:12:04research um as needed and then we'll be refining um our analysis and recommendations based on

1:12:11you know what we heard today and also what we hear at the end of the month from from the working group

1:12:16um and uh we'll be completing the uh just overall heritage assessment of of the area and then

1:12:25I don't think we've got our our dates nailed down for 2025 but we'll be coming back basically this

1:12:32is our sort of first first round with this group and in the working group in the fall

1:12:36we'll be doing more research and analysis and then we'll be coming back with some recommendations in

1:12:412025 um uh in the in the spring um relating to to the study and the boundary and and really not

1:12:51just the boundary but really describing what is it about this place that is significant from a

1:12:59from a heritage perspective and should um anchor the the area as it continues to change and evolve

1:13:08um anything else jack you wanted to to add to next steps or where we go from here

1:13:15uh no I think that was really comprehensive great okay thank you everyone thank you

1:13:23lots of lots of good work done so far great glad to hear thank you so two quick things on the

1:13:31day um the agenda then are just any chair and staff announcements nothing for myself jack are there

1:13:35any announcements from yourself uh nope next meeting is November 4th that's uh that's all for me

1:13:43perfect Kelly's got a very cute dog in the background that was distracting me

1:13:48in the best possible way uh all right then it's just adjournment so looking for someone to move

1:13:53the adjournment for today thank you Kelly and second round put branda and then all those in favor

1:14:03I'm gonna assume Kim is there there we go thanks Kim in a car even thank you yeah all right everyone

1:14:09enjoy the rest of your October we'll see you in a couple weeks thank you thanks so much bye everyone

1:14:15thanks so