Heritage Guelph

0:00I'm here. I'm not sure why it's dark. I'm just going to start and stop it and see if that helps.

0:06Hmm.

0:11We have your name present now.

0:13We believe you.

0:17All right. Well, then I will, I'll welcome everyone to our meeting today, January 27th, 2025 of heritage wealth and welcome all committee members, staff and invited guests who are attending this meeting.

0:29I'll begin with our land acknowledgement. So as we gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work in wealth.

0:36A city built over rich indigenous histories. We are guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land, the people who live here today and the generations to come.

0:47If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation, we should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude.

0:54This place we call wealth has served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for many peoples over time, but more specifically the adewan drunk and the Haudenosaunee.

1:04This land is held as the treaty lands and territory with Mrs. Saga's with the credit First Nation.

1:09We'll fly directly adjacent to the Haldeman tract and is part of a long established traditional hunting ground for the 6 nations of the Grand River. Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples who have come from across Turtle Island called wealth home today.

1:24Next is our disclosure of the culinary interest and the general nature thereof. If anyone has anything to declare, I'll ask you to unmute seeing no one on mute.

1:39We will move on then to our workshop and so we leave two agenda items today. The first we will have with Stephen on the Ontario reformatory heritage conservation district draft plan and guideline workshop felt like a mouthful saying that I'll turn it over to you, Stephen.

1:54Thank you, Sarah.

1:58I'm happy to to be conducting this workshop about the.

2:03On the reformatory heritage district plan, which is in draft form.

2:09And under discussion, I want to point out that we're joined today by Heidi shop from WSP, our consultants, and also Marisa Williams, who is the planning lead for WSP on this project.

2:24I should, sorry, I should have introduced Heidi as project manager for this for the district plan.

2:34So, what we don't actually have a formal presentation that's with today, but I would like to share just a few images maybe to get things started. So, I'm going to hit my share button here.

2:51So, I'm going to see if this works.

3:07Make a few adjustments here. Okay, now I'm hoping everyone can see the screen that I have.

3:23So, you'll notice that this several of the beginning slides here that I'm showing are quite similar to the staff presentation that was made to council at the November 13th and 26th meetings where council was first considered the draft into a reformatory

3:45heritage conservation district.

3:49And just want to just by way of a bit of an update.

3:57I think everyone here in the meeting is aware that the draft of the or HCD planning guidelines was released on November 1.

4:06And it was considered by council and received by council on and within two council meetings first beginning at on November 13 and which was adjourned and resumed on November 26.

4:26Just just so that we're aware I do have an image here that basically shows the outcome or the two motions that were passed by council.

4:36As a result of the November 13 to 26 meeting.

4:42And we can come back to this, if you like.

4:45And also I just have a slide of the approved heritage district area that we're all quite familiar with.

4:55Now, what I'd like to do is stop sharing.

5:02I do have, I can go back to images if need be about the district, including.

5:10I can access the district, the draft planning guidelines itself.

5:16So, Sarah, I've, I'm, I've started speaking and I would welcome or I'd like to suggest that either that Heidi or or Marisa, but especially Heidi as project manager may be able to to join the discussion if you if you feel that's appropriate.

5:37One, one caveat I will say on Heidi's behalf is that Heidi has only until one o'clock today before she has another meeting.

5:46So, with two items on the agenda, maybe it'll work out just fine that we can do this in the first half and then talk about the second item. Second.

5:55So, with that, maybe I'll switch it back to you.

5:59Sarah.

6:01Sure. Yeah. So, I think the goal really is open to discussion today.

6:06As there isn't really too much of a formal presentation as even noted. So, I'll open the floor then to to folks to share comments, feedback questions. Anything you may have.

6:21Oh, Miranda, you're just muted.

6:25I just want to clarify.

6:27Is this feedback on the the plan itself?

6:32That's through the chair. I'd like to respond to that and say, yes, it's it's a chance to hear from heritage Guelph directly, you know, what their thoughts and comments are on what is still the draft of the unthero reformatory heritage conservation district planning guidelines.

6:49Well, for me, there's certainly a lot more detail here in terms of the future than than I saw in the original.

6:57One thing I've noticed, I just did a search for the which the word should, which was 1 of the things that came up at that council meeting that I attended back in, I guess, November.

7:09And the word should is appropriate in some places. There's there are references sometimes where to other documents where the word should did appear.

7:19But in the in the guidelines, for example, there are there is the word should when I think shall would strengthen the wording and and is probably more appropriate if the goal is to and I think the goal is to strengthen this document and and

7:38I guess use the strongest possible language to preserve the the landscape and the heritage attributes that we have.

7:49Just see if I can find a couple of examples. I can certainly email them to people, but I'm just going through the pages.

7:5736 onward.

8:01And the 1st place that I see it is the bottom of page 37. For example, new access points for proposed development in the area and areas.

8:13Shall could be there or must rather than should be planned in a manner that minimizes the introduction of new access points. That sort of thing.

8:25We're happy to go through and strengthen that language throughout. That's a comment that we've. Yeah, we take it on board. So absolutely. Are you on that one?

8:35Chair, can I just jump in and just Miranda, I just want to clarify when you refer to a page number and this maybe this is a bit of.

8:43It's a bit frustrating, but there's actually 2 pages. There's the page that you see on the printed page. So to speak of the PDF, but there's also the page.

8:53That's a different number of in at the top of the PDF document. I just just for everyone's ease of understanding. I just wanted to make sure what you're looking at. You're looking at the bottom right, like the actual page number.

9:06Bottom right. Yeah. Yeah. Page number as printed on the document. Yeah.

9:11Thanks. Yeah, and there are there are a number in there. As I said, I just, I went through that's just the 1st 1 in my in my list from the pages that I printed.

9:24But maybe just to go through from numbers 1 to 55 for for whoever is making the alterations to see how many times we could change that to shall.

9:35I think we'll find there are great many that we could change to shall and that would strengthen the language.

9:40Through through the chair, I wonder.

9:46I want to make the best use of the committee's time and staff and the consultants time today.

9:53I don't say that to to sort of put off actions or discussions about this, but Miranda, you're, you're bringing up like we're talking about a.

10:04But a number of terms that you'd like us to reconsider and and I completely agree with Heidi's response that yes, it's something that we can have a look at.

10:14And consider. So, how, how many of those do you do you think of those?

10:21Were you able to sort of identify maybe the most.

10:24The highest priorities of those or would you like to go through each and every 1 of them?

10:30Well, I'd be happy to to go through them 1 by 1 myself and send send an email out with page numbers if that's helpful and then we can talk about other things.

10:42Sure.

10:44Sure.

10:49And maybe on this sort of note, are there other term questions or changes anyone would like before I'll just see your hands up. I don't know if it was in regards to this, but I think maybe if we are there is other language in particular that folks.

11:03Would like to recommend changes to Miranda. I can you're welcome to to keep sharing items.

11:10Well, the other term that came up at the council meeting was seek to.

11:22Shall seek to respect. Again, we could just delete the seek to and leave it at shall respect.

11:30Those sorts of things that's those that term is only there 6 times. So again, I can.

11:37Highlight those and send them out.

11:39Okay.

11:41Those, I think, were some of the biggest things items of concern that I heard about at.

11:49At the city council meeting.

11:51Alex, you're welcome to jump in.

11:59Sarah.

12:02I had, I had 1 follow up question on.

12:06Ryan's 1st question through you chair to Steven.

12:10So we're providing this committee is providing comment on this draft plan.

12:15Will we be seeing the final planned and providing.

12:19On that before it goes to council.

12:23I understand that there's always.

12:26You know, there's.

12:28Needing to be revisions and so I just like, I just want to be clear as far as like is.

12:34Is the end result of today's workshop.

12:37Effectively heritage golf giving their.

12:41Sort of approval of the plan with the comments that we're providing today.

12:49Through through the chair, Alex, that today is meant to be an opportunity for the advisory committee to provide their comments, their advice.

12:58But it's not the, it's not your only opportunity.

13:02What this is is the beginnings of consultation that will.

13:06We're starting with heritage golf, but we also want to, we will be, we will be speaking with the.

13:12Community and landowner group.

13:14As well.

13:15We'll be speaking with with 1st nations.

13:18And they'll also be, I believe, lots of feedback during the open house section.

13:24Or aspect of this 2nd phase of the heritage district designation process.

13:29So, I think you'll find that there'll be lots of touch points.

13:34Where a couple of things I'd like, I'd like a couple of things to happen is that.

13:38Whichever group that we're speaking to. I want to make sure that they're aware of what we've been hearing today from here at is Guelph.

13:46And also, I want to make sure that further.

13:51Further opportunity to, to clarify or, or to add to comments is like there's an opportunity there.

14:03Some might say, well, there's.

14:06You know, that, that means that's going to mean a lot of time to go through that to talk with everyone and I guess individual groups, but also together say in the open house, but.

14:16What I think what's needed here is taking the time to do this right. So, as I said, this is your, this is a 1st opportunity for the committee in.

14:28The advisory committee in this form.

14:30This format to start providing.

14:33The meeting.

14:383rd chair. Thank you, Steven for that clarification. Yeah, I.

14:42I look forward to seeing how this.

14:44This consultation process, which can be long, but I think, as you said, it's very important to take the time. I don't think there's a single other.

14:53Heritage property in the city that.

14:55Is as complicated as this, so I appreciate that.

15:00As far as clarification goes.

15:02I had 1 question regarding the map.

15:08Just going to pull it up here of.

15:11Sort of includes like the adaptive reuse zones.

15:17And sorry, I'm just trying to find it again.

15:21Here we go.

15:23Or 5.1 or yeah, 5.1 development.

15:27There's a figure 9 plate 5 proposal and use with adaptive use area.

15:32Within that.

15:36Map, I was just curious as to why.

15:39Proposal for open space and park for that overlaps the rocks.

15:45Why is it only a portion of the rocks and why does it not extend.

15:50To encompass sort of the entirety of the rocks is because that's been identified as.

15:55Sort of a key landscape feature.

16:01Through the chair, I think it might be helpful if I share my screen with that image. So I do have it available here. I'd like to just share.

16:10And just let me know.

16:24Let me know if you can see that thumbs up. Yes, you're good.

16:28Great. Okay. I'm going to zoom in a bit or zoom in as much as I can.

16:32Okay. So, if you don't mind maybe just.

16:39Repeating your description. I believe you're talking about this area here around the quarry.

16:44Yeah, yeah, landscape area. Yeah, just because I've, I've, I've had the opportunity to walk in that area. And it is a quite a stunning.

16:52And I know it's been, it's been well identified within this.

16:57HCD process. I was just curious as to why.

17:02Or maybe to provide as a comment or suggestion that, that perhaps the park.

17:08Which seems like a fitting use for that area. Why, or that maybe it could extend to include sort of.

17:17All that rocky area that's been identified by the hash, the orange hash marks.

17:24What, what we've presented here is essentially what the official plan identifies in land use as open space and park.

17:33That's the lighter green area here.

17:36So it's, it's underneath the hatched area, which has probably everyone at this meeting knows is the, the.

17:45Or a cultural heritage landscape area.

17:49But to answer your question, I mean, it's a valid question as to how, how large a park area.

17:57Maybe should be ideally in this area. It's this simply reflects today what, what is the land use that's been designated for that, that portion of that area.

18:09As a follow up then, I guess, to 2 questions. 1 is how does the HCD plan.

18:20And I believe this is answered, but just, just.

18:24Just if you could answer it again for me.

18:27How does this HCD plan sort of provide feedback or does it change or affect the secondary plan for this area that sort of identifies that currently in that space.

18:41And then I guess separately.

18:44What is really the difference between open space and park versus.

18:50Significant natural area, which is I see is the 2 designations that overlap the rocks is like as far as.

18:58City resources or public use of the space. Is there a difference or is there.

19:04Is it sort of not really.

19:07They're not not really any concern about.

19:10You know, what's park and what's not actually park it functionally. It's all.

19:15You know, wildlife space that people can walk through is my question. Like, what's, what's the difference between those 2 designations.

19:22Sorry, I just want to make sure my mic is on here.

19:31I'm, I don't actually have a, a full some answer to that question.

19:40And it would be as far as the difference between something that's designated as open space as opposed to parks. But I believe that the.

19:50It's really a matter of appropriate uses for those things that are designated that way by the official plan.

20:00I want to get to your, the portion of your question that referred to the secondary plan.

20:09And even the block plan process.

20:11The heritage district plan guidelines is meant to inform.

20:16And provide.

20:19Essentially.

20:21Advise really the planning system that will go into.

20:25Deciding what will be the ultimate land use for this particular area actually for the entire area that the block plan for identifies.

20:35So, I guess what I'm saying is that the district plan identifies a very significant cultural heritage landscape, which is the quarry, the area.

20:48The official plan identifies what's already seen as open space, but also park.

20:55And it's really up to the secondary plan to discussions through the block plan process to decide what that, what that ultimate use should be.

21:06Okay.

21:08So, I guess, you know, like in the eventual sale of this property.

21:14I'm just trying to understand the planning process a little bit as far as what.

21:20What functionally that like it sounds correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds what you're saying is that this, this map.

21:27Is as much reflecting existing use as it is providing direction for future use.

21:36That, that is correct.

21:38Okay. So, you know, if the sale of this property goes forward and.

21:45I'm assuming again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming the property would be sold in entirety. And so, having spaces that are identified as open space and park.

22:00Like those aren't, it doesn't mean that they automatically become sin parks. Correct.

22:07I think it's important. First of all, just to clarify that this the lands that we're talking about are owned by the city of Guelph.

22:16We've often when we're talking about the expected sale of lands, we're talking about the lands that are owned.

22:22Provincially, the quarry area itself is within lands that are city owned.

22:29Okay. Like, like you, like you just said, Alex, the, this is more in this part of this particular image is showing more what the current land designation is.

22:41Okay.

22:43All right.

22:45I have two further sort of points of questioning, but and then I'll be quick because I don't want to drag this out, but.

22:55One, one was sort of overall, and I guess I'm not sure who to direct this question to or this comment to, but.

23:03I think 1 of the 1 of the potential worries for this site, I think the, the plan as written actually provides a lot of flexibility for some interesting outcomes.

23:15For, for this site, which is great. There's a lot of good, you know, wording it around.

23:25How to protect and enhance the heritage value of the site.

23:29I am curious to understand how, and this is maybe philosophically from a planning perspective like you can provide.

23:38All these potential uses, but I think there's a concern about.

23:43Whoever ends up owning the property that they may go for the very narrow outlook on to what to actually use the site for.

23:52So that may be just as a housing development, for instance.

23:57Which this plan does allow for. I mean, how does this work as far as, you know, there's 1 line in 4.1 management of heritage.

24:051.1 require high quality design.

24:09Etc. Like, what is the framework for evaluating that criteria? Like, is that managed through.

24:17Like a heritage impact assessment for.

24:21You know, those those block areas or those those landscape or built heritage characteristics, because there's a lot of great lines within this.

24:29So, like, what is the plan that talk about? Like, how does.

24:33How to enhance the built heritage attributes or how to make sure that landscape elements reflect city beautiful movement? Like, could, could it be required?

24:43As part of, you know, applications for development that.

24:47Whoever's making that application has to actually provide for some answers.

24:53You know, like, how does this.

24:55This alteration impact the heritage of the site? Like, how does this alteration enhance, you know, the built heritage attributes? Like.

25:03I think.

25:04As far as when I think of management, having having.

25:08New proposals of alterations or restorations or additions.

25:13Have to go through that that process of making a good argument for why they're doing what they're doing. I think helps to maybe bring those.

25:21Process more in line with the spirit of what's.

25:26In this plan, so I, I guess, maybe.

25:29If you could provide some understanding as to how.

25:33What's written in this plan is actually then.

25:37From a process point of view actually carried through when, when somebody says, here's, I want to do this, you know, whatever this is.

25:45On the site.

25:48Yeah, I think I can speak to that and Steven, feel free to jump in.

25:52Same with you, Marisa. I mean, I think that is the intent because there is no.

25:57Development application on the table right now.

26:00We can't foresee what someone might propose. Right. So I think the intent of this plan.

26:06You know, sort of through that plate 5.

26:10Is like, this is what can go where. And then once an actual detailed application does come forward.

26:17I think the idea would be to do a cultural heritage impact assessment to flash that out so that the proposal would have to demonstrate how they're upholding.

26:26This plan and like achieving those goals.

26:30So I think we were trying to strike a balance between not being so prescriptive because I think there is a lot of really interesting opportunity here.

26:38And then I think there are areas where it's more appropriate to, to develop or alter. And then there are other other areas where like we're just talking about the natural heritage and sort of part character of the property, which people really, really value.

26:52You know, what, what parts to conserve.

26:55What parts are suitable for adaptive reuse.

26:59So trying to identify where those things could occur.

27:03And then once there actually is a proposal, then that would be assessed through cultural heritage impact assessment and then get into that detail in through that process.

27:12Just like to add to that chair. If I, if I could, thanks Heidi. I was hoping that that responses would be sort of include the staff voice, but also the consultants voice.

27:28I also want to add to that too is that the, the designation of this as a, this area as a heritage conservation district does would put into effect the requirements that are typical of heritage permits or alterations, which include impact assessments and even which usually lead to things like conservation plans.

27:49But also there's, there's the oversight as well in this area that the block plan, the secondary plan and the block plan what, what it establishes is important would be an important consideration as well.

28:06Not, not that would overshadow or overrule a heritage conservation district plan, but that would work in concert with the three, I think the three levels are needing to work in concert that being a heritage conservation district plan, the secondary plan itself for the

28:24GID and the block plan for block four.

28:28Which it's important to remember that that block plan area.

28:34It includes most of the current heritage district area, but not the entire thing. So that is, it is important to have good policy and and strong.

28:47Good policy and direction for proposed development within the entire heritage district area.

29:02Three chair. Thank you both for those answers.

29:09As a small note, you know, and this is more in line with Miranda's comments in sort of in particular, which just like to say that I think there's a, I'll have to find where that is in the document again, but there's a line about types of materials that are appropriate.

29:28For use in in in sort of any restoration or adapt for use or.

29:36I think there is a, it doesn't include for for new construction in there.

29:43Which I think it would be good to sort of hold new construction in the same standard as we would for other alterations on the site when it comes to the use of different materials.

29:56And design.

29:58I also highly biased by this, but I think given the rich history of the rocks and the quarry on the site.

30:08I think it would be really impactful if again with wealth limestone as a specific material could be identified.

30:18In sort of use with designs for alterations or new development, if possible, you know.

30:25Just because it is so crucial to the history of the site.

30:30I think anytime we can try to elevate that material, which is has such a great connection with the city in general, but specifically to this site that would be, you know, in my mind, I think that's that's very appropriate.

30:42So, if it is possible to highlight in particular, well, flymestone among materials that are appropriate. I think that would be.

30:52Yeah, would be great.

30:56Through the chair I think that's a that's a really good suggestion and I know Alex have we've heard you say similar things on in regard to this property but other properties and wealth as well.

31:07I just want to add to that that the reformatory became known or not only buildings built out of golf limestone actually stone that was taken right from the land itself, the reformatory lands, but also, you know, the construction of buildings using different, you know, different types of masonry and even

31:28concrete like concrete. So I think here's another good example where there could be and should be some flexibility enough flexibility to be able to have a have a clear clear guideline for the breadth of materials that would be seen as appropriate for new construction within this area.

31:51So, it's not necessarily too prescriptive because we want to keep the door open to some creativity on this. But again, I think I think what you've raised is a good, a good touch point that always should be top of mind when we're reviewing proposals, as Heidi said through the impact assessment

32:10if I could just follow up on that I agree, Stephen and I think it's not that you know I think we handcuff people by saying you know preference should be given to these materials that are already found on the site but that you know, it does ask new development to be creative in taking

32:32what is already existing on site, those material conditions and finding new ways to use them or sort of enhance them in design so I did have one actually follow up question I know I keep saying I'm going to finish up here but there was in 6.2.2 there's a line about visual screening.

32:53Could you just, could somebody just speak to what that is I think it's in regards to landscapes, non contributing landscapes on the property and how to deal with give me a second I'll find it here guidelines for non contributing landscapes.

33:150.3 Alex I have it on my screen here I could try to share. Yeah, give me a second. And I'm hoping I got you the right page, but yeah that looks right and I think just if you go down to general guidelines for non contributing landscapes.

33:46Right. Yeah, so point I think it's point two and point three together.

33:54So, yeah, mitigating residual impacts such as visual screening and then visual screen must or shall be achieved using sympathetic materials.

34:06I want to understand what that is generally like what does that look like I'm not very familiar with visual screening as far as context and why, why we would be seeing visual screening on the site.

34:22Chair, if you don't mind I can answer that.

34:28The intent is that if there is anything that.

34:32Is like from a perspective that.

34:41The only exact like a couple examples is like sometimes there's a requirement for.

34:49Garbage disposal as part of a development and so what what the intent is that.

34:56You know, the kind of screening of that garbage disposal area would be done in a way that would be appropriate and would use materials that would be in fitting with what currently exists. So, oftentimes that would be done through, you know.

35:14Usually through plantings because that works well, but it could also be different types of, you know, would work.

35:22Maybe being more cognizant of just rather than panels like, you know, fencing panels. It could be a mixture of metal work that would be, you know, reminiscent of the character of the area of the actual site.

35:36But also, you know, thinking of different ways of, you know, some unsightly areas that could be dealt with through.

35:44You know, again, through stonework or plantings to make those unsightly areas more, more attractive. I hope that answers your question.

35:58Through you chair it does. Thank you for that. Yeah.

36:01And actually just as a follow up.

36:04This gets into another point I had written down.

36:08I think there's always a challenge in these plans in, and I know this is reflective in the standards and guidelines that parks Canada puts out.

36:18As far as towing the line between.

36:22Keeping stuff that is in a sympathetic to.

36:27Existing design materials or architectural styles that are on the property, but trying to have a visual distinction between the two.

36:39I mean, again, I could, we can have our own workshop on where that can be problematic. I think the work going on with.

36:50And I think that's a good example of that. But, you know, the dry stone walls on the property are 1 of those key elements that are really unique to this property.

37:01And so, I guess the question I have is, does this plan allow for the flexibility to, for instance, if there was a proposal for.

37:11Dry stone walls to be added to the property as either part of landscaping features to define pathways or, you know, in the case of visual screening.

37:20Does this plan allow for that or those incompatible because it's seeing it as.

37:25Oh, heritage, even though it would be sort of respecting the tradition of stonework and the materials that are already present on site.

37:34Again, through you chair.

37:38I think the intent is that we're not trying to replicate.

37:42Sure, if there's a decision to make.

37:47You know, walkways using stone material having a slight distinction between the old and the new would be more appropriate in terms of what goes on and how that would be dealt with.

38:01I think in this particular instance where it's a non contributing feature or area.

38:09You know, I think there's a little bit more flexibility as to how you would display that would it would it be more, you know, could be modern, but maybe using more.

38:21It could be modern in terms of the technique, but the materials could be more of what's on site.

38:28Like the stonework or even just the design could be a bit more modern. Again, it's just to allow some flexibility for the non contributing area like features and areas.

38:42And I do do think that there is some caution about replicating and making it look like.

38:49Original material when it's not, I think there has to be some slight distinction to show the differences, the evolution of the site.

38:58So, I think, you know, it depends where, where the change is going to occur and where that that.

39:05You know, for example, what you suggested like walkways.

39:09You know, how that will be treated and where it's located within the entire district area. You know, could be located within an area where, you know, modern material and modern design may be totally appropriate.

39:21It's trying to find that balance and I think we've mentioned this before of where you allow some flexibility versus, you know, giving it pristine.

39:31So there, there has to be that range. And it's difficult to do that in a document that, you know, is trying to be kind of all things to all people in a way. So, I hope that answers your question.

39:44Through you chair.

39:47Yeah, thank you for that. I think specifically in why I hone in on the stone walls.

39:53And I have a little bit of background with dry stone walling. I think it's.

39:58I think a it's trying to think ahead as far as not arriving at a scenario in which, you know, let's just use for example, sort of a short wall along a walkway to help delineate path that, you know, the application that comes forward says, you know, we're going to do a metal railing or we're going to do concrete or whatever, because we need it to be distinct from, you know, other elements on the site.

40:27And I think in the case with the dry stone walling, though, although, you know, it would visually be close to what is existing already. I think with that in particular, like it's dry stone walling is, is, is such a.

40:39Close reflection of the actual land because it is taking stone found on the property and arranging it.

40:46You know, like human arranging it.

40:48But humans arranging it to produce something that is like an artifice, right? So it's like it has a very deep connection to the property. And so I think allowing for, you know, if the proposal came forward to say like, we want to delineate these pathways with new dry stone walls that even though they are close, you know, it's not so much trying to fake it and make it look like oh, there's all this additional stone walling on the property.

41:15But we're trying to keep an intangible heritage value of the site, which is the use of materials from the local to that property or that site that have been sort of transformed by human hands.

41:29Because I think that that really conveys the story of the reformatory, maybe better than any other part of the property itself. So, I think I might my only comments are would be to allow for stone, the dry stone walling.

41:44To have sort of a really important place within new design going forward and allow for, you know, new dry stone walls to be built.

41:56I think that you could get into the weeds also talking about each dry stone wall has a different style. And so, you know, there is that level of distinction between what is old and what is new because whoever built it has put their own style to it.

42:09So there is a distinction there.

42:11I'll leave it at that.

42:18Through the chair, I just wanted to be mindful of time. My clock says quarter to one. And I want to make sure that we've given the consultants enough of an opportunity to be part, you know, very much a part of this discussion and I'm really pleased with how that's happened already.

42:38I want to make sure though, Miranda, when you began your comments or questions, I think you mentioned something about writing down, like making written comments, and I think that's the ideal outcome of a meeting like this is that the verbal discussion is great.

42:55I think it's it can clarify a lot of things, but yourself and Alex, I think, and all the committee members here, what I would ask of you is that you give some thought to writing down what your comments are, and especially what your questions are and forward those to to me, and I'll be pleased to share them with WSP.

43:17I want to make sure that everyone at the meeting today gets gets their opportunity to to ask questions or to make comments on the draft planning guidelines.

43:29So with with that, just and you know so that we make sure we I wanted to ideally is to at least have the high points mentioned before one o'clock, before we lose Heidi, I think.

43:44I'm not sure if Marisa is available to stay on. Okay, super.

43:50But I think it's important to put to put pen to paper with with whether it's comments or questions or concerns, this sort of thing.

44:00Steven, do you have an ideal timeframe for written comments back for individual committee members.

44:07Is tomorrow okay. No, just kidding. Oh, I'm sure it's okay whether it's actually going to happen is a different reality.

44:15I'd like to go back to what I had mentioned earlier is that with each interaction or touch point in the, the consultations, I'd like, I'd like to be able to come to the next meeting like for example, meeting with the community and landowner group.

44:29I'd like to be able to to indicate to, you know, what what the was discussed and what were the outcomes what was the suggestions concerns that the advisory committee has had.

44:43I think two weeks from now would be would be reasonable, which would be about the time that will be, whether that I'm hoping to continue with with other aspects of the consultation.

44:56I want to be fair or what's the old saying cruel, cruel, but fair as far as deadlines go.

45:01I mean, any other.

45:05I'm sorry chair, I didn't mean to. So with that, I'll get off the mic and let let the members continue with their with their questions.

45:14No worries. Alex, I see your hand is up.

45:17Thank you through your chair to Steven, just just to put a point on that. So the deadline would two weeks would put us at February 10th.

45:25Correct. That's correct. And it would be a day or two after our next heritage 12th meetings. So.

45:34So, are there other questions, comments, thoughts for both the consultants and Steven.

45:52I appreciate the opportunity to send to take some more time to review and send some individual written comments. Even that's helpful.

45:58I have a just a question if you can remind me on the, I know you talked about the steps that you're going forward with public consultation, but what's the ideal timeline to completion on the HCD.

46:10Which is a tough, it's tricky. I know.

46:13Yes, sure. It is. It's a tricky question.

46:17But I think that the timing is really dependent upon the types of.

46:23Of commentary we do receive the requests and the depth at which we are being asked to to consider the draft document.

46:35But, but also just the timing in.

46:39I had mentioned earlier, starting with heritage wealth coming to the, the community and landowner group.

46:45Going to First Nations going to.

46:49To the public open house. There's a certain amount of time that's required to be able to do that or at least a reasonable amount of time.

46:57So, when we've come through that, that period of consultation, that's, that's when I'd like to think that we'll be in a place where we're able to bring something back to council.

47:09That would be reflective of and respectful of the, all of the input, the input that we've received.

47:28Any other thoughts, and I won't drag us out by any means, but are there any other thoughts or.

47:34Things that folks like addressed today.

47:37We're noted today.

47:41Chair, it's, it's not necessary that you have to have mentioned something today in this meeting. I mean, all the members are welcome to submit their, their thoughts and comments by that deadline.

47:56Seeing no one else on mute or raise their hand, I'm going to say we're probably good then for the workshop component of this agenda item.

48:05So, I'll just say thanks to, to both the consultants for joining us and Stephen for taking us through that discussion and I appreciate the openness of that review period and the opportunities will have to comment.

48:16You're quite welcome, Sarah. I would like to also say that WSP is welcome to stay on on this meeting to hear about the next item, but I would completely understand if you're not able to.

48:35Thank you. I think I will drop off just from my next meeting, but thank you very much for having me on and looking forward to receiving comments and continuing work on this.

48:48I'm going to stay on because I think it might be pertinent to what our work is going to be.

48:54Okay, coming out of this discussion. So, thanks so much for having me today. Okay.

49:00All right, so we'll move on then to the creation of a national urban park at the Ontario reformatory and I'll be turning it over to Alex to take us through this one.

49:10Thank you, Sarah.

49:13Through you, chair of the committee. So, the purpose of this motion is really to get us sort of in line with, you know, motions that have already been passed at both the council level but also by the tourism advisory committee.

49:33I think, you know, I've provided in the agenda some some links and some further information for committee members if they wanted to.

49:43To look at what a national urban park is. I know that there's still a lot of uncertainty there as far as, you know, how feasible or what what this park looks like, but I think as an idea in itself, there's a lot of merit to it.

50:00And it does also have support from versus or indigenous groups. And so, in that way satisfies one of the, I think, outcomes that both the city has identified wanting to achieve, not only just in general, but also with with regards to the HCD, which is trying to have full some involvement from indigenous groups.

50:27I think the only other comment I'll make for committee members to consider is that this doesn't, and this was a similar comment made at the council, which is that this doesn't preclude any other potential uses for the site.

50:39It's just simply a statement that would say, you know, there's a lot of merit to the idea and it would be an effective vehicle for conserving both the landscape and bill heritage attributes of the site.

50:55And provide for quite a detailed or quite a full some engagement process with different groups.

51:04I'm happy to answer any questions that people may have.

51:08I'll turn it over to the committee.

51:13Great. Thank you, Alex.

51:16Are there questions comments from anyone.

51:19Maybe I'll pose a question, Alex.

51:25So, if you can just clarify the process for me, so the federal government has funds for up to 6 sites and there's no guarantee.

51:33That this site would move forward, right? This is sort of just like, let's put it in the work to get it on the radar and essentially hope it's selected as one of the sites.

51:47Yeah, I, my, my understanding of the process is, yeah, there's, there's money that was set aside by the federal government for up to 6 parks.

51:57Across the country. So this, there is competition out there.

52:03But as far as this site goes, it does meet a lot of the requirements that we'd put it in the running.

52:11Whether or not the site is chosen to be one of the 6 remains to be seen.

52:16You know, I also understand that, you know, from what comments that were made at council meeting back in November, that, you know, really, I think what we're seeing here is also a community.

52:26Let initiative to sort of ask the federal government to look at the site as a potential national urban park.

52:35I don't believe there's any other formal process that happens from the city as far as regards to this. This is, this is sort of, you know, a citizen led movement to ask the federal government to consider.

52:49There are, I think, unknowns as far as, you know, say.

52:54This site wasn't chosen for national park. I think it remains to be seen if the federal government.

53:00Um, wants to put forward a follow up program.

53:04Putting aside follow up money that would then, you know, open up the door to more national parks. I think that will depend greatly on what happens at the federal level, which of course we have no control on.

53:15I think the important thing for.

53:18The committee to be aware of or considers is simply that, you know.

53:24Passing this motion at this committee is sort of to help.

53:29Strengthen, you know, the argument that's being made by this community group that this is a good candidate site.

53:36And also to show sort of support for other.

53:40Both for the tourism advisory committee, but also counsel to sort of say, you know, councils already said that they sort of support this in principle.

53:51We're coming to say, hey, you know, we too also support that idea.

53:57I think it's just a moment also to be in line with the council and say, like, hey, yeah, we think it's you think it's potentially good idea.

54:07We also think it's potentially good idea.

54:10It doesn't.

54:11From what I understand it at that council meeting doesn't.

54:14You know, chain us to any particular path forward. It just simply is saying, yeah, it's a great idea.

54:22Thanks for the verification.

54:25Other questions or comments from anyone.

54:27So Alex has provided provided a motion which I'm assuming when he unless you tell me otherwise he's allowed to move his own motion.

54:40And the motion was that heritage golf supports the creation of a national urban park at the Ontario reformatory for the conservation of its cultural and natural heritage to advance reconciliation and encourage public access and education.

54:52I like some going to assume you're moving that and would there be a seconder thinking Miranda and all those in favor, but Kelly.

55:00All right, it is carried.

55:04I think that is everything. So I've just lost my screen that I had for our agenda today.

55:12We should, I guess we'll follow regular procedure and has someone move adjournment for today.

55:17Thank you very much. Kim second or Alex and all in favor.

55:21All right, we'll see everyone in just under 2 weeks then.

55:25Have a good day. Thanks.

55:27Thanks everybody.

55:28Thank you.