Special Council Meeting

2:33All right, good evening again everyone just after seven o'clock and this is a call the meeting to order for our special council meeting. It is titled the 2023 development charge background study update.

2:45And before I continue any disclosure, pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof of the item in front of us.

2:52Don't hear or see anything so I'll move past that again did receive formal regrets from counselor Gibson.

3:00Other than that, I know that we

3:03In talking to staff and some others during the break. We we did actually cover off quite a bit in the in the in the in the last meeting. So

3:11That may help us, you know

3:13Get through this in in good order as well. So

3:17But we want to make sure we give a lot of attention to

3:21To Gary who was answering a lot of questions in the last workshop, but specific and a bit more focused to what's in front of us for our city

3:28And so that will kick us off with a presentation

3:31We also have a delegation and some correspondence that was attached as well

3:35And the recommendation for us tonight is just to receive

3:38So anybody watching at home?

3:40This is a first kind of blush at what's in front of us here in regards to development charges in the background study

3:48So with that, I'll turn it over

3:51to you Tara you're going to do some opening remarks for us and

3:55And then if we could just be focused on

3:58Again trying to focus on this part and not trying to bleed sort of the last part into

4:05Into this meeting that would be wonderful. Thank you. Okay. So thank you. Good evening. Mr. Mayor or members of council and members of

4:15our community

4:17The council workshop earlier this evening we set the foundational understanding of how development charges work

4:24We know that how we fund

4:26Um and pay for growth is an important conversation for this council and our community

4:32Um and to align our consultation process with best practice

4:35We released an early draft of the development charge background study to the public to get feedback through this council meeting

4:41We have also launched a have your say campaign today

4:45So anyone listening can also provide their feedback online to be part of this important conversation

4:51Um gary scanlan from watson and associates will now be presenting the progress

4:57To date on the dc background study

5:00Uh, this study is a work in progress and will we will continue to

5:05refine the capital plan and some of the other items through the summers

5:10Especially with the feedback and the development of the capital plan

5:13Uh, we will then bring back the final draft of the study and the proposed by a lot of council at the statutory public meeting in october

5:20So with that, uh, I will invite uh gary up here to

5:25Walk through the draft dc background study

5:31Thank you, terror

5:33Mr. Mayor members of the council always a pleasure to be before you

5:37Um, so we've put together presentation as noted just to summarize the findings the draft findings at this particular point

5:44I will go through a little bit. I know you've had a bit of an education

5:48system

5:50session with

5:51With kevin's presentation. So there may be a couple of slides that cross over. I'll just move through them

5:58fairly quickly

6:03Oops

6:05Sure, that's kind of um, just very simple agenda just to talk where we're at in the the whole study process

6:12Um, there have been a lot of changes over the last couple of years

6:16um, you know starting with

6:19Uh, you know under the liberal government and then moving in 2015. I think we've worked through those

6:26but then uh since 2019 with the

6:30With the newer government, they've introduced numerous changes which uh, I'll provide a higher level summary for you

6:37And then I'll get into just the fundamentals of the of the study and the calculations

6:49As noted, we we started about a year ago

6:52with staff uh, and uh

6:55To initiate the process

6:57At that particular point there was a lot going on both with on the planning side as well as the evaluation with a number of master plans and such

7:05So there's a lot of information that

7:08Was in progress which we've brought together

7:11Uh for this uh, this study

7:14We've been before you as well to talk about in early in the new year about some of the changes with bill 23 the more homes

7:22Built faster act. So we um,

7:25Overviewed some of those implications. We'll revisit those as part of the presentation

7:30Uh, I'd note that we have engaged. Kevin had indicated we engaged the

7:36The community we have this peer review group which was a number of different members of the public

7:43Who represented on the committee? We had different

7:47Development factions in there. Uh counselor or roark was on the committee as well. So we had a good round

7:55of discussion and a lot of input

7:58Into the process. So that process has come to a close the closure was with

8:05Presenting them some of the information on capital projects and the service standards

8:11You can see where at the we're rounding it out now. We're in

8:15Doing the workshop for you today. We will release the final

8:19background study in

8:21October

8:23And that will lay the foundation for going to the public meeting

8:26And then counsel to consider the bylaw early in the new year

8:30And you may have received this very thick document. This is what we have to go through

8:35There's a lot of words. There's a lot of pages in there

8:38So that's what will be refined over the next couple of months and translated into the final uh dc background study

8:46So for the benefit of the public development charges are a very unique

8:55type of charge

8:57There's specific legislation that allows us to impose

9:02charges on new development whether it be a subdivision or whether it be

9:07An individual building a new home on a vacant lot

9:12All of those are considered

9:14um

9:15new development

9:16And people need to contribute towards the infrastructure that the municipality has to build in order to accommodate you

9:23So the first bullet says that

9:26That is to recover capital costs or infrastructure

9:30As associated with both residential and non residential growth within the municipality

9:36Now the second bullet

9:38I want to point out is that the act actually breaks

9:42infrastructure into two two different categories

9:45On the one side, there's very localized works. So a developer

9:50In their subdivision would deal with all the internal roads the water mains the sewers put street lights sidewalks

9:58um, you know

10:00Connect to any uh collector or arterial roads so that they come out of their subdivision, etc

10:06So all of those costs are called local services. They're very localized and for the most part

10:12They're 100 the developers cost. So the development charges act says, okay, those very

10:17localized costs the developers will pay for those directly

10:21Now we have to define and i'll touch upon this a little bit later

10:25But we must define what a local service is

10:28So you'll see in the back of in your existing policy and in the back here

10:33We'll have a definition which guides, you know, when planning or finance or negotiating with the developer to be very clear what the costs are

10:42The second part of it is the broader cost. So building water treatment plants sewage treatment plants

10:48Water towers parks recreation, etc. Those are broader costs

10:53Those are the types of costs that we include in the development charge

10:57So you'll see when you're looking at the report

10:59We go through all these different services

11:02And identify the staff identify the needs into the future to accommodate all of this new growth

11:08so, um

11:10The development charges act

11:13Is the key piece of legislation which allows municipalities to do it and there's a whole process

11:18That we have to go through in order to make it happen

11:26Now this is not a new charge this charge started uh back in the mid 1950s

11:32And originally it was under the planning act and it was one clause under the planning act and it kind of got broadened out over time

11:40It was a subject to many many many

11:44Trips to the Ontario municipal board that allowed those decisions allowed us to interpret

11:51What the planning act meant and so from 1950 to the end of the 1980s

11:57That was the regime we were working under

12:00The province ended up weaving together all of those decisions and came up with the first development charges act in 1989

12:08Since that time there's been numerous changes as you can see a major overhaul was in uh, uh,

12:15the development charges act 1997

12:18And it introduced a number of reductions deductions

12:22It eliminated certain services that we couldn't collect

12:25Etc. So we went from being a full cost recovery type of piece of legislation

12:31To introducing a number of deductions which maybe only allowed us then to collect

12:3680 75 or 80 percent of the true growth

12:40uh cost so we had that significant deduction and from uh 1997 through to

12:482016 that was the that was the legislation

12:51Uh, we had and I'm just going to name the bills because there's too many words

12:56And these creative names for the legislation

12:59I can't remember them all. Uh, some of them I'll show you but we went through

13:04Bill 73 108 138 197 213 109 and bill 23 all in the last five or six years

13:13a lot of that has uh moved towards uh reducing the amount of money that municipalities can collect

13:21So from that original 75 to 80 percent we could only collect it's significantly less now

13:28And the more recent changes are from the province's perspective to assist housing

13:36The last piece of legislation's the more more homes faster act

13:40From the province's perspective, they feel that that will help

13:45Accommodate the acceleration of building homes

13:48The one you've already we've been before you

13:52Uh over the last two years to make some changes prior to seeing this bill 23

13:57And there are there a number of changes that were uh

14:01Uh put into place uh during 2019 to 2020

14:06And these are the ones that are summarized here. It started with bill 108 and for those

14:11Counselors that may not have been around

14:17Bill 108 was one that made modifications to 16 pieces of legislation

14:22We were planning act modifications and development charge

14:26modifications

14:27And when they initially reduced it it would have brought the eligible dc services down to eight

14:34So that's what they were recommending was the elimination of many services

14:38It added back as we got through the piece added it back in theory. It's 21

14:45But eligible services for you are about 16

14:48So it further eliminated some

14:51The only thing bill 108 really did for

14:56For

14:57Development was it introduced

15:00kind of cash flow payments

15:03For certain types of development

15:04So if you had rental housing or institutional development

15:08You could pay over five years instead of paying at the time building permit

15:13You would pay later in the process

15:16So that would help cash flow for those developments. They also did it for nonprofit housing, but they said you can pay it over 20 years

15:24So if you needed to pay

15:25$10,000 you're going to divide that by actually 21 payments

15:30And you're going to pay over time. So they allowed you to

15:35They introduced that they also introduced

15:37For site plan or if somebody if I come forward to the city and ask for a site plan

15:44Approval so I put an application in or I put it in for a zoning amendment

15:50On the day you accept it, whatever the charges there are on that day, they're frozen

15:56Okay, so that is frozen now. They will allow you to

16:01add

16:02Inflation or index it over time

16:05And

16:06That's really at right now. They've made modifications. It's now at the at the prime rate

16:11So they're allowing you to I think it's prime plus one. They'll allow you to to implement it. So

16:19That's to some extent positive and at least to give me cash flow

16:22But to try and help out the development

16:24You'll see later on that that provision for nonprofit housing has been removed. They're now completely exempt

16:30Um, and for site plan and zoning, this is something that staff are monitoring

16:37that index

16:39When the you approve that site plan or zoning amendment

16:42The developments have two years to get going on the development or that

16:48That frozen rate

16:50Goes away. It's whatever the rates are

16:52At the time. Okay, so it does have an expiry date on it

16:56But it is adding additional administration to staff to to monitor these types of agreements

17:03The bill 138 they had actually initially said commercial and industrial would get these these phase payments

17:10But they eliminated it with 138. So we don't have to

17:14Turn them eyes to that bill 197 is the one that made the significant changes

17:19I'll show you the eligible services in a minute. It's it's a little more expanded

17:25Then kevin kevin in his presentation focused on your eligible services and then

17:32You can see bill 213

17:35Introduced a mandatory exemption for universities. So that was the process that we went through between

17:412019 2020

17:43subsequent to that there were further changes that were introduced

17:46oops

17:48Okay

17:51I knew I hit it twice

17:54So there was further changes with bill 23

17:57So they made uh, a number of legislative changes not only to the development charges act

18:03There was a whole bunch of changes to planning. I'm sure the the planners have talked to you about that

18:08You also have the ability to impose community benefit charges

18:12You have a bylaw so they've made some modifications to that and even your parkland dedication they've changed

18:18They basically cut the amount of parkland

18:22To be dedicated in theory in half. So there's reductions there on on your ability to get infrastructure

18:30So these changes through bill 23 are we'll have a significant

18:35Impact and we'll talk about that in a minute

18:41There are additionally exemptions that have been introduced. So these exemptions mean that you can't collect

18:49So right now there are

18:51in effect

18:53Mandatory exemptions so you can't impose charges against let's say school boards or the counties

19:00Buildings or facilities the province the feds

19:05so

19:06If you have an industrial expansions they can expand up to 50 percent

19:10And you can't collect for the first 50 percent of the expansion

19:13So there's the number that were already in place for a number of years

19:17And these are the additional ones that they put into place

19:20In the i'll start with the bottom, which is the green because they are actually enforced today

19:26So they are exemptions for inclusionary zoning

19:30So these are affordable housing units that you can ask for you can ask for up to 5 percent

19:35of

19:36inclusionary zoning

19:38You can I ask for up to 5 percent to be

19:41affordable housing

19:43That 5 percent would not pay the development charge

19:47Okay, you have non-profit housing and so non-profit housing now is exempt

19:53And if you had those payments if you were starting member the 21 payments that I talked with maybe you got the first payment

20:00It's done. There are any existing agreements are cancelled

20:04So there's no further collections if you're expecting the the money

20:08And then they've made adjustments for additional

20:12Residential units you can actually if I have a single family home

20:16I can add up to two additional units

20:19in I can have I can have

20:22a basement apartment I can have

20:25in a

20:27Let's say a unit in the garage or such I can add additional small home

20:32So they're adding more intensity and with that intensity you don't have to pay the

20:37Development charge once again the province's focus is on

20:41Additional housing so they're exempting to make it easier for those buildings to be constructed

20:48The ones that are in orange on the top have been introduced

20:51But they need additional legislation in order to be in place

20:56There's affordable rental units

20:59So this is where they're going to say if you build something and the expected rent

21:04Is less than 80 percent of the average

21:09Then you'll have to pay you get an exemption from the development charge

21:13so

21:15You know somehow the province is going to develop a bulletin

21:19That bulletin will be specific to your municipality and if it says okay the rents

21:23$1,500 a month

21:25if it's below

21:27$1,200

21:29then a month then

21:32You get an exemption from the DCs

21:34Now we're not quite sure how that they still haven't defined it

21:38We don't know if it's a unit

21:41Or they're going to categorize it by a four bedroom three bedroom two bedroom one bedroom, which obviously would have different rents

21:48We don't know location or whatever. So these are things that yet have to be worked out with the province

21:54And maybe that's why it's taking a little bit more time because it's more complex

21:58So in fairness it's it's not an easy one

22:01They'll they're working towards an affordable owned unit

22:04So with the price of the unit is no more than 80 percent of the average purchase price

22:09As defined in this new bulletin

22:12Then if you're below that 80 percent, you don't you get an exemption from the DC

22:17Now this is a unique one. We did some research

22:21on behalf of uh oakville

22:23And uh, there's seven different zones that we would conclude

22:29That that defines certain housing

22:31So if you're in the downtown the housing quite often in the very downtown of oakville along the lake shore

22:37Their prices are

22:39somewhere here

22:40If you're in the north end rated adjacent to the 407

22:45The prices may be down here. So we don't know how

22:49If they average it all they would exempt a whole bunch of units and I don't know how they're going to average it

22:53So these are questions we have

22:56I'm not being disrespectful. I just don't know how they're going to approach it. There's many different ways if you handle it one way

23:04It may not be

23:06Beneficial to municipalities. So we don't know and this is probably why they're

23:10spending more time

23:11Then we have attainable units

23:14So it excludes so attainable unit isn't affordable and isn't a rental unit

23:20But it's defined as something they haven't given us the they haven't defined yet. So we have this new

23:26Uh attainable unit, but there's no definition for it. But it's apparently it's coming now that will be introduced through

23:34regulations

23:35Okay, so these are things that are pending

23:38Uh, and we're not quite sure

23:40In some of the the work we've done with staff to estimate

23:43A potential loss of revenue

23:45We've made some guesstimates on some of these in order to assist in identifying

23:52The magnitude of some of the changes for bill 23

23:56So i'm sure we'll be back to you at some point to give you more insight into what all of these need

24:01They introduce discounts for rental housing

24:06so if I am

24:09If I am within that eligible category

24:12If I build a three bedroom a larger

24:15You're going to discount my charge by 25 percent

24:18If I build a two bedroom, you're going to knock off 20 percent

24:22If I build a studio or one bedroom, you're going to give me a 15 discount

24:28So even though it's for market rents and that type of thing there'll still be discounts to

24:35To those buildings

24:38And then there's further reductions

24:41which

24:43We wish we'll provide a loss of revenue for the municipality housing

24:49municipal housing used to be a

24:52eligible service

24:54I had I had mentioned earlier that for the bylaws that were in place

25:00This translated into a loss of about 2.2 billion dollars

25:05And then it's going to impact the effectively 42 000

25:09Units that municipalities had on the books to assist in funding

25:14I don't understand that could have been a category we would have looked at through this study

25:19But now it's a mute point. There are capital cost

25:23amendments we have studies have been removed so growth studies master plans

25:30Some of the official plan work that we would do they've been removed now

25:34As well

25:36they've said that

25:38land for prescribed services would be eliminated as well

25:43We don't have that regulation. So we don't know

25:46If they're going to remove all your ability to purchase land in all situations

25:52Or whether they're just going to target certain services right now

25:55You cannot use development charges to buy parkland

26:00We can build once you have the land we can develop the park

26:03But we may not purchase parkland. So they're looking at some additional

26:09Categories that would be exempt

26:11similar to the parkland

26:13When you pass the charge so when we consider this new charge

26:19There's a mandatory phasing

26:21So that in the first year

26:23If we if we had a ten thousand dollar charge

26:26The first year you can only collect eight thousand dollars. So you discount it by 20%

26:33In year two we can increase that to 8700 year three etc

26:37And only in the last in the fifth year can you collect 100 of the charge

26:43And then historic service levels

26:46Used to be measured over a 10-year planning horizon

26:49And now they're measured over 15

26:52For very rapidly

26:54growing municipalities, this can be a burden

26:57As a note with yourself, there is a bit of an impact

27:01But it's not it's not one that

27:04Are going to create a significant impact

27:10for

27:13DC administration when we talked about the installment payments and the dc freeze and I

27:20indicated that you get add interest

27:22They put there was no cap or no direction traditionally

27:27When they introduced that now they've put

27:30A

27:33Set amount on it and it is prime plus 1% so actually today you're probably it's like 8% so those payments

27:41Can be indexed year over year at 8%

27:45Uh, the um this next one is probably more for transparency than any other purpose

27:54So what it says is when

27:57Uh at the for the new year

28:01Um, we have to identify

28:03For water wastewater and road reserves. We have to identify

28:08The allocation or the potential use of that for at least 60%

28:13But if I got a I got 10 million dollars in the roads

28:17I need to say okay of this 6 million dollars is going towards a construction of road a road b road c

28:25It doesn't mean you have to transfer the money out. You're not committed

28:29But it's an indication to the developers where in a priority sequence that money's probably going to go

28:35Okay, and it would tag in probably

28:39Most easy as you're going through your capital budget process

28:42You are identifying your growth related projects. So it's a very easy

28:47Way to identify how you're going to use the reserve funds. So that's not a major one

28:52Last one is the um, your dc bylaws historically had a five-year useful life

28:59You know five years in one day they die

29:01Now they're saying okay, we can extend it out to 10 years

29:05So to some extent maybe that's a positive on the other side what we see is

29:11policies change

29:13Capital cut we've seen the capital construction costs go up dramatically over the last last couple of years

29:19So even though you got the ability to go 10 years

29:22It's something staff should monitor and say, you know, we'll go the full 10 years

29:27Maybe there's some reason to pull it back and look at a component of it or all of it within a shorter time horizon

29:33but that's to the

29:35It's just giving you the ability to to ride out longer or to

29:39Or to consider an earlier adjustment

29:45Now we talked about eligible services these this is the complete list

29:50Of services you can see certain ones like electrical power

29:55I'm not quite sure they eliminated for the most part

29:58municipality's ability to

30:00include hydro when the hydro went when they did the re

30:04reorganization of hydro services

30:08It got eliminated. So it's still in there. There must be one municipality that must have a dc and they own their own

30:14Hydro facility because i'm not quite sure with where this applies

30:19There's Toronto subway

30:22But that's not something so we when we go through you can see most of these where we are

30:29capitalizing on and most of the eligible services are the ones that

30:33Probably are most affected by development water wastewater storm

30:37services related to highway is basically roads sidewalk active transportation

30:43They call it services related to a highway, but it's everything within basically your your road allowance

30:49uh transit waste diversion not landfill landfill and

30:56Energy from waste plants are incineration. We cannot include but any type of recycle reuse

31:04You know organics we can include

31:06So police fire ambulance library long-term care parks and recreation

31:11They've actually combined parks and recreation as one where we used to have it as a separate no big deal

31:18And then public health

31:20Provincial offenses so it's still you've got a good list, but as kevin pointed out

31:25We've lost a couple of services over time. We've lost the the housing and we've also lost

31:31In the prior round a couple of years ago the eliminated parking

31:35Right, so there are impacts

31:41I apologize for this

31:44The size matters when you're presenting and in this particular case it's a little

31:51It's a little bit small, but what we tried to do we talked about the service standards

31:56And when we do that calculation that kevin went through where we have to look back 10 years

32:03Historically now we have to look back 15 years

32:06We have to consider quality quantity measures, etc. Etc. And what that does is it puts an upper ceiling

32:13Potentially what we could recover from development

32:16So only it's called a level of service

32:19But really it's a mathematical calculation period

32:23And it's just something that's defined as a level of service solely for the development charge

32:29Now you can see we've taken the information that we've had

32:32And we've looked at it on a 10-year basis and we looked at it on a 15-year basis

32:39On a 10-year basis actually we'd be able to collect

32:42793 million dollars as the maximum

32:46We're actually a little over 800

32:49So for your just the the pace of growth

32:52And the pace of when you've built all of your infrastructure you've really kept the infrastructure

32:57Consistent with the level of growth. So in your particular case, there's not much of a difference

33:04There may be some municipalities who for whatever reason have allowed growth to go and haven't been building the infrastructure

33:11They may find a more

33:13More impact, but in your particular case it hasn't really been a a major

33:20Thing to consider in fact it's giving you a tiny bit more cash flow potentially

33:26We

33:28I always talk with councils about

33:32In a very simple way the relationship between growth and costs

33:37And the decisions you make what the impacts are on potentially your your taxes or your water wastewater rates

33:46And as you know as growth occurs

33:48The servicing needs water treatment facilities

33:52Sewage treatment parks recreation, etc. Etc. Etc. So that's the that's the oval on the top

34:00On the left hand side the oval on the bottom is development charges. It is not mandatory

34:07Okay, you do not you're not forced to have a development charge

34:12however

34:13If you don't

34:15Then because these are projects that have to be built it shifts 100 over to property taxes

34:21Your water and your wastewater rates, etc. So the existing taxpayers end up

34:26Contributing or subsidizing growth

34:30Now across Ontario, there's probably about 212

34:33Municipalities it's been growing it's probably at 220 now from the last count

34:38Uh 220 municipalities so roughly 50 of ontario have development charges

34:43But there's something like 176

34:46municipalities across the north

34:48But not necessarily the hotbed of economic activity

34:52They probably don't need to have development charges

34:55So you can see most of southern Ontario and you know going up to Sudbury and then some of the other major ones

35:01Do have them because they understand that

35:04That they have to fund the infrastructure

35:07now also with this

35:10Any so any exemptions any restrictions

35:15There's discretionary exemptions. There's mandatory

35:18Anything where you can't collect it takes it from that development charge and it puts it over onto property taxes

35:24Remember you got to fund a project

35:27If you can't collect it from the development

35:30Then it has to go somewhere else to be collected and generally it's the property tax or the water and wastewater rate user

35:37So very simple. There's there's no there's no magic to it

35:42You collect or you subsidize

35:46now

35:48At a very high level

35:50This is the methodology the development charges act is has numerous clauses and numerous sub clauses and

35:59There's about 175

36:02OMB OLT LPAT decisions

36:05I've read them all

36:07Great great bedtime and if you got insomnia boy, it'll help you out

36:11So I have to read all of these things and it gives a lot of insight into all of the minutiae all the different calculations

36:18But really at the high level

36:20This is what the act is trying to achieve

36:23Identify the amount type of location of growth. So the amount is measured over time periods

36:29The type is residential versus non residential and then location helps us to define

36:35What we need water servicing sewer servicing road expansions, etc. Etc. Etc. So that's the starting point

36:43And kevin had given you 2.1 of the act. That's the starting point

36:48We start to move down identify the servicing needs and item three says

36:52What are the capital projects that we're actually going to build?

36:56When we had those capital projects, there are mandatory deductions grant subsidies and other contributions

37:02We had a conversation about this. It's only if there are more

37:08generic type of

37:10Grants or subsidies that apply to the to the project if it's targeted towards

37:17Asset management or something it it would only target to that component of the of the project

37:23So there's potentially grant subsidies other contributions that are deducted

37:27Benefit to existing we talked about the counselor asked about what the definition of that is

37:33So there are different measures

37:35that we've

37:36agreed upon through case law and then there's the service standard calculation hits the

37:43A maximum amount that we can collect for certain services

37:47That service standard I might add does not

37:50Impact water wastewater or storm

37:54It is not in place for any of the harder services like that

37:59Because whatever you need to get an approval from the government to build it and put it into place

38:04It overrides this service standard calculation

38:08So you won't see it for water wastewater and storm should have pointed that out earlier. I apologize

38:13So then we and then we have to rationalize if you've got money in the reserves

38:17Reserve funds we have to rationalize that we end up with the net cost

38:21Which I must split between residential non residential benefit

38:25There's a number of different ways that we do that and then I divide it back by the growth in order to come up with the charge

38:31So as was noted by kevin

38:34It's the cost of the infrastructure

38:36We divide it

38:37You know we do a whole bunch of deductions

38:40You know from that infrastructure cost and then we divide it by the growth to come up with the charges

38:46and

38:47Residential charges are normally

38:49You know singles and seven detached so low density

38:53We have medium medium density charge and we have high density charge

38:57So we have big apartments small apartments and we normally have a specialty unit which may apply let's say to

39:04Uh a retirement home, you know a chart well that has all these many many rooms, but then you have these broader

39:11Uh dining facilities, etc. So though they normally have a small number of people in them and we recognize that

39:19And then non residential is basically on a represented on the cost for square foot

39:24So if I got a ten dollar charge and I'm going to have a thousand square feet facility

39:30I'm going to charge

39:32Ten dollars times the thousand so I'll pay ten thousand dollars. I talked about local service. I won't

39:41Spend a lot of time on it other than number one

39:45It is mandatory what the legislative changes in 2015 said

39:512015 said is that you cannot

39:54impose a cost on a developer or require them to construct if it's not consistent with your development charge policy

40:03So in very simple terms, we have to be very clear in that local service policy. What is the developer's responsibility?

40:11And if it doesn't if it's not defined there

40:14Then it's going to end up in the development charge. So if you require them to build it

40:18They're going to ask for a credit

40:19So we have to be very clear when we're going through this process

40:23And the types of services that we can have you can see there's we have policies

40:27What if it what's an internal road or maybe there's an improvement to a rural adjacent road collectors?

40:33So we go through to talk about that we talk about intersections street lights

40:37Uh traffic lights sidewalks, etc. Etc. Etc. So we go through in order to be very clear

40:45your policy I have to I would note is

40:49Not with this round with the um with the committee

40:53But the prior round we spent a lot awful lot of time

40:58The developing landowners

41:00And the residents and we sat through and we went through a very detailed process to come up with your local service policy

41:07That was an excellent excellent excellent process

41:10And I your your committee was fantastic and you know, obviously there was

41:15Different perspectives on different things, but at the end I think we got something that was workable

41:20so

41:20Very unique to have worked through a very detailed process like that

41:24But you're the group that you set up

41:26Did a very good job in developing it

41:31the growth forecast

41:33so the um for the um

41:37We do have the 2051

41:39targets that are

41:41set out

41:42So some of the services we have looked to going out to 2051

41:47There are some of the softer services that we've looked at it over a 10-year planning horizon

41:51And I'll show you those uh those numbers right now. Well actually the bottom bullet

41:57your

41:59Housing pledge talks about 18 000 units

42:02The forecast that we have right now that we've looked at the 10-year services on and I'll show you which ones

42:09I'm talking about in a minute, but we've targeted 12 700 which was the

42:15The number that we were working with up until a very short time ago

42:20Why are we working with the shorter number because right now there's the um

42:26The capital budget that we're working with was originally staged on that so staff are trying to

42:32Update that you know if we're going to move to the pledge

42:35You know what services that we're going to need so it's being rationalized

42:38But part two of that is we talked about a sizable income

42:43loss as a result of bill bill 23 changes

42:46I'll touch on that, but it's over 200 million dollars. So staff at the same time are trying to

42:52Look at accelerating infrastructure while at the same time. There's a loss of revenue

42:57So once again, it's through your capital budget process

43:00We'll we'll do this now

43:02Is this going to restrict is anybody going to say i'm taking to the board because you're not consistent

43:09with the

43:10With the housing pledge. I'm sure somebody will but here's the bottom line

43:14We have to match the infrastructure needs with the population that we choose

43:20So we've done that and we have had the information. We're trying to

43:24Relook at it, but it's going to take time. You can't do it in in a number of a couple of months

43:29So it will be looked at so worse comes to worse

43:33If we're moving at that that target level 18 000 and we're building at that extent

43:40It may mean that my forecast instead of 10 years is now six years

43:44And just means staff are going to come back in on the fourth or fifth year

43:47And they're going to update the development charge

43:49Study and they're going to say, okay, you know, we've used up, you know, we've grown faster than we expected

43:55We're going to update the study. So there's no negative impact

44:00on that

44:01Okay, I'm sure somebody's going to challenge and that's fair and we'll have that dialogue, but it does not take away

44:09Your ability to target a lesser growth forecast

44:13Okay, and when we take a look at that forecast you can see that

44:18Over the 10 years it's you can see 12,000 roughly 500 units, which is going to generate about 26,000

44:28new residents

44:30Over the longer term to 2051 you're just under 50,000 people in about 25,000

44:38units

44:38But those are the long-term targets that we're looking at

44:42non-residential square footage

44:44I didn't include the employment on here

44:47But we're talking about 7.2 million square feet of development over the next 10 years

44:52And about 16 million square feet over the longer term

44:56Okay, so those are the numbers that I need in order to look at the infrastructure needs and to actually do the calculations

45:08so

45:10This once again is the high level. I apologize. It's trying to give you a lot of information

45:15On one slide, so let me explain what what the slide is that we're looking at

45:22So really at a high level this is

45:24summarizing

45:26All of the different services

45:28So in the top half

45:30The services that are looked at over the 10 year planning horizon are parks of recreation

45:36transit library long-term care services

45:40for provincial provincial offenses

45:43public health ambulance and waste aversion

45:46So those are what we've looked at over the 10 year planning horizon

45:50And with that if I just look at that highlighted blue line

45:55That total is about

45:57931 million dollars of infrastructure

46:00Okay

46:02The bottom half is going from now out to 2051

46:06And that includes basically your services related to a highway. So your roads active transportation

46:13Public works which is more of your vehicles equipment and buildings

46:17fire protection police and then all of your water services all of your wastewater services

46:23and then storm storm water services

46:27That for the longer term is 2.4 billion dollars worth of infrastructure

46:32So in total what's being looked at

46:35For the two planning horizons is 3.3 billion dollars worth of

46:42infrastructure to be constructed

46:44To address those populations that we talked about so, you know over the longer term almost 50,000 people

46:52Is the is the longer term forecast

46:55So and then over the shorter term we're looking at 26,000 people

46:59As we go across these are all the different deductions and adjustments we have to make

47:05So as I go from left to right

47:08I start off with the gross capital cost now look at the dark blue. I'll just talk to the dark blue line on the bottom

47:16So we start with 3.3 million dollars

47:19We then there's an adjustment made for what we call post period benefit

47:24benefit

47:25That means that it's growth related cost

47:28But maybe like the sewage treatment plant is oversized to pick up more than that exact population

47:36It's hard to build a sewage treatment plant or a water treatment plant for that exact number

47:41They're normally in stages. So maybe the last

47:45Treatment facility we only pick up 50 of it in period the other half is still growth related

47:51But when we adjust the the

47:54Planning horizon later I pull it all in so it's still growth related

47:59A 100 percent is just an adjustment I have to make so that the infrastructure and the population line up

48:07And that's where we're saying if we accelerate the timing

48:11Okay, so we've used a you know that 10-year growth forecast is now six that I'm going to readjust the time per

48:18Period I'm going to pull more of the infrastructure in so it's that's why I say it's not a concern

48:25From a calculation perspective

48:28As we move across so that then we've with the 700 million dollars, which is cash flow have to be cash float

48:35There are some other deductions and it's a minor thing. There's 8.9 million dollars there

48:42This is for waste aversion because some of the projects that we're building

48:45Uh, we'll have landfill related impacts. So I have to make an adjustment. So that's that's where that one shows up

48:53So it's a minor-minder thing

48:55We end up with a net cost

48:56So we go from 3.3 down to 2.6 billion

49:00That benefit to existing that we talked about that represents about almost 1.2 billion dollars

49:07So of the 2.6 it's running at about 46 percent of that is deducted

49:13And we've talked about what it was for some of it is, you know, we're replacing a water main

49:19You know, that's this big and we're expanding it to this big

49:22I have to fund the the original main that was this big and that the the growth will will fund that expansion

49:29Okay, so it's mandatory. We must look at it to some extent. It's fair because of the

49:34Even though you may not have gotten all the years useful life out of it

49:38You know, I should have used it for 100 years

49:40It's 60 years old. Maybe I'm going to lose some cost, but something that we have to have to address

49:47Grant subsidies and other contributions is not much the majority there is for your transit services

49:53And that'll deduct about another 79 million. So by the time we get to

49:58the end

50:00It's um the calculations the charges that I'll show are based on recovering 1.3 billion dollars of infrastructure

50:10And that split 930 million dollars

50:14From the residential side and 400 million from the non-residential side

50:19Now when I do these calculations, these are full cost recovery

50:24So these are calculated

50:27after this

50:29Then we have to recognize

50:31Exemptions and you know where we have to do discounts for rental housing and all of that comes after I've calculated

50:38So the theory is this is full cost recovery. Well for these calculations is full cost recovery

50:44But then there's revenues that you you're not going to be able to collect

50:48But that's something that you're going to have to subsidize

50:51Right, so if we if we have to phase in and we started 80 percent 85 percent

50:56You have to fund that phase in loss if we have exemptions for different types of housing

51:01You've got to fund that those exemptions. Okay, that is after the 1.3 billion dollars

51:09When I translate that into charges

51:12Oh, sorry

51:16This is just uh staff had asked to collapse this down to the first 10 years

51:22And so if I just isolate with all of these works to the first 10 years

51:28We start with 1.8 billion dollars as compared to the 3.3 billion

51:34And as I come across the um, uh

51:38There are different deductions, which you would have seen on the prior page

51:42But this is just isolated for the uh for the 10 year planning horizon in total over the 10 years

51:48Then we're talking about recovering about

51:51830 million dollars as compared to the bigger number over the longer term. Okay

51:58so this is

52:00Just looking at the the first 10 years

52:03Which would help to inform the capital budget that um, you'll be working on soon enough

52:10As we move ahead

52:18Okay, sorry

52:20There's a delay on this

52:21So as we move ahead just to summarize

52:24Some of the changes because you're going to see that the calculated charge has come up quite a bit

52:29Okay from from what it was before

52:32Uh, so one of the things is that uh, we're going out to 2051

52:37Where we had a shorter term planning horizon the last time

52:41So some of the big numbers may not have gotten in there, you know, water how are we going to

52:46Generate all this water supply. What about the sewage treatment plant?

52:49You know, we didn't include at that particular point, uh, claire moltby

52:53Which is going to require a significant investment in infrastructure

52:57So those things weren't in there now they're into the calculation

53:01um, you as i've noted you just recently

53:05Completed master plans which have updated the capital needs. So we've relied on that

53:11And then lastly what's happened across ontario and over the last couple of years is tender prices have gone up considerably

53:19We've seen roads water wastewater infrastructure go up 50 60 70 percent

53:26So when the master plans have looked at it, they've looked at the latest and greatest benchmarks

53:32And the costs have gone up considerably

53:34And there's different perspectives on why it's gone up probably supply chain issues is one of the major ones

53:42Uh, still having problems getting, you know, uh, solid

53:46Workforce back on its feet, etc. Etc. And all of that's impacting the the costs

53:53And it's not just you it's right across all of ontario

53:58Uh, so the development charges once again, I apologize. We keep having these big

54:03tables with

54:05That looked pretty small on the

54:08On the overhead

54:10So these are the total charges

54:14And as we start from left to right, we've listed for you all of the services

54:20And as we move across

54:22We've given you the charges for the single and semi-detached. That's the largest residential unit

54:27multiples which is your medium density

54:29So basically townhouses

54:32And then we've got three different size apartments two bedroom larger

54:37bash, uh, sorry

54:39studio and

54:40One bedroom and then those special, you know more of the seniors type of

54:45Units and then the last

54:48charges for the non residential

54:51So for single and semi-detached

54:54The calculation is 68 902

54:58Dollars

54:59So that's what we've calculated on your behalf the biggest numbers probably no surprise

55:04$20,000 is

55:06for roads

55:08Services related to a highway

55:10Uh, but almost 14 000 for parks and rec

55:14And then uh wastewater services

55:17$9800 and $13 000 for water

55:20So those are the big drivers

55:23Uh behind the calculations

55:25As we take a look at a comparison

55:29So this is on the residential side

55:31You can see that what's been highlighted

55:34Uh over time we've lost parking and we've lost

55:37Uh what we called administration but growth related studies

55:41So they've been eliminated

55:43So where the charge was at

55:45$47,800

55:47The new calculated charge is at $69,000 $68,900

55:51So you can see a sizable increase as I say I gave you the the drivers behind all of that

55:59So this is sizable increase to be considered

56:02Now once again, this is the

56:04100 charge remember we have to phase in

56:08Over five years

56:10So the footnote on the bottom is the first year

56:14As soon as you pass this

56:16We can't collect the $68,900

56:19In the first year we can only collect 55,100 per single detached unit

56:24Okay, and then it'll go up, you know over the next couple of years

56:29On the non-residential side same comparison you can see that

56:33We were at $16.24 currently

56:37And we would be staging up to $27.25 per square foot

56:42The first that 80 percent so the first year of the uh, uh the phase in

56:48We'd see it at $21.80

56:51Okay, that's the 80 percent charge

56:56um, so right now

56:59We've continued or in here, um

57:02Your current bylaw provides for what we call discretionary

57:06So these aren't there's the mandatory exemptions we talked about but this is where your prior council

57:11I've turned their minds to different situations and have said

57:14Okay, we're we're going to give some relief to these types of developments

57:19Uh, historically it was a university university related developments now it's exempt

57:26So we won't worry about that places of worship cemeteries burial grounds

57:30You would provide an exemption for those

57:34Uh development by a college established on the Ontario colleges

57:39Uh, depending on how that works out sometimes it's mandatory sometimes it's not but

57:45All of the colleges have been exempt temporary buildings, you know within a

57:50Planning horizon time time limit. Uh, you'll allow them relief if they remove the buildings over time

57:56Um building code says if it's smaller than 10 square meters, you don't need a building code. So we've kind of exempted them

58:04Uh hospitals, uh, if they're a public hospital are exempt and then parking structures

58:10So those uh, that's something to consider as we move through if council wish to continue those or are there any other

58:19Uh ones that uh, you feel are appropriate keep in mind as we add more and more exemptions

58:25These are things that you have to fund. Okay, so it's uh, it's a positive thing, but um, it's it also has its impacts

58:34We talked about bill 23 and you've seen this

58:37provided by staff

58:40We uh, have estimated and I will admit that they we've taken a look at some of those new

58:47Classifications that we don't know exactly what they mean that you know attainable and affordable and stuff like that and we have made a

58:54An educated guess working with finance and planning

58:58So if we just ignored it, I don't think that's fair as well. So we've tried to take a stab at it

59:04so we would think that uh

59:07We would lose about 38 million dollars as a result of that five-year phase in

59:13Obviously if we were going with the 18,000 target instead of the 12

59:18That number would be higher because this is based on that lower growth forecast

59:23Uh new exemptions that they've identified about 134 million dollars

59:28Growth studies we lost from the last time around. So we've lost nine million dollars

59:33The purpose built rental discounts, you know that 25 2015

59:39That would probably provide another 12 million dollar loss and then accessory dwelling units

59:4634 million and then uh, in addition to that there's some minor deduction for other potential exemptions that might arise

59:54So about 232 million

59:56227 was the initial cost and then there there might be other instances. So in that range, it's a sizable loss of uh revenue

1:00:10Yeah, so if you compare this figure to your 10 years, which uh goes back on page, um

1:00:1726 we talked about 830 million dollars

1:00:21Is the amount that we would hope to fund

1:00:25So we're gonna lose about 230 million. So you're gonna lose 28 percent

1:00:31So sizable amount

1:00:36So last couple of slides, um that i'll provide

1:00:41just

1:00:42taking a look really from

1:00:46Uh gta west is really what we're looking at. So we've got some

1:00:51We've got vaughn and richmond hill in there

1:00:54And then we're coming all the way west and we're taking a look at the charges

1:00:58Um, so once again big slide

1:01:01But you can see just from a comparator basis that you are basically in the middle

1:01:08Even on the calculated rate

1:01:10If I explain it if you're in if you see the blue

1:01:14Those would be the upper tier municipality

1:01:17so, um

1:01:19Region of halton region of york region of waterloo

1:01:23county of wellington

1:01:24type of thing so those are in the blue

1:01:27Uh single tier municipality such as yourself. You'll see that it's a solid orange

1:01:33And then if you see the green the school boards can impose charges

1:01:37So those are the charges uh for the school boards

1:01:40So this is a single and semi-detached dwelling unit chart at the highest end

1:01:46You can see vaughn are up in the range of about 130

1:01:51uh thousand dollars for a

1:01:53single detached unit

1:01:55and then

1:01:56It goes down from there. We go to brampton. We go into missis saga

1:02:00We come into okra halton hills and

1:02:03As we get outside of the actual gta

1:02:07You can see we start in your neck of the woods

1:02:10So you are in the middle of the pack

1:02:12And the red is where the current charge is the blue is the calculated

1:02:18and the green is the

1:02:2280 percent starting marker now. I will also note that with

1:02:26These municipalities they have not gone through their latest and greatest update

1:02:32So we would expect you're at the front end of the curve. So we would expect to see

1:02:37um

1:02:38Some differences over the next year or two

1:02:41Okay, if we go to the next slide we've talked about commercial

1:02:46And you can see exact same number of comparative municipalities

1:02:50but uh with respect to um

1:02:54Commercial charge the highest is running at about 70 dollars per square foot in markham

1:03:00And then it starts to come down. There's a number that are in excess of the 60

1:03:05You're running uh your calculated charge is running around 27 dollars

1:03:09Your current charge is running around 16 and you can see the midpoint is 21. You are at the

1:03:16Right hand side of the middle. So you have lower charges with respect to your

1:03:21imposing on new businesses and then on the industrial

1:03:26A lot of municipalities do

1:03:28Either some discounting or different ways of calculating industrial tends to be

1:03:33Sometimes treated a little bit different. So right now you're at the right hand side of the middle

1:03:39The 80 percent will put you rates macdab in the middle and over and the calculated will put you on the left hand side

1:03:47As I say as we expect to see other municipalities

1:03:51updating the charges now over

1:03:5466 percent of the municipalities will address their bylaws over the next two years

1:04:01But that's why I say expect to see a number of changes that will be coming out in the coming

1:04:08coming years so

1:04:11So that concludes a lot of the information the next steps are just to identify

1:04:18Oops, sorry

1:04:24As was noted the have your say campaign

1:04:28We thought it was july 25th staff have been far more efficient than we thought so they started that today

1:04:36So have your say campaign has been launched

1:04:39Um, we'll be looking over the summer to receive any feedback

1:04:44There are some things we're just trying to tweak or refine. So we'll make those appropriate adjustments

1:04:50But as I say for sure, we'll be back by the final

1:04:53background study in october

1:04:55We'll have the mandatory public meeting

1:04:58And between the time that we release the study

1:05:01We must have a minimum 60 days

1:05:05It must be on the street for at least 60 days before council can consider the bylaw

1:05:10So that's why there's there's that timing gap. So we'll be back in early january

1:05:16to work with you

1:05:19And hopefully address the the passage of the bylaw

1:05:26To you mr. Mayor. I I'm happy to entertain any questions

1:05:31What we'll do is uh that sai is prompting me to say go get a seat and take a drink

1:05:37Because we do have a delegation. We have only one anyway. So uh, susan watson's going to come up. We'll hear from her

1:05:43And then and then you can be comfortable there and i'm sure we'll uh banter around some questions

1:05:49Before we look to receive the the information

1:05:52Thank you, uh, susan come on up and let me just

1:05:56Pull up my clock

1:05:59Yep, I think our clerks are nodding their head to bring it up. Yep

1:06:02So whenever you start i'll start the clock and as you know no more than five minutes go ahead

1:06:18Mayor Guthrie and members of council

1:06:20I was a citizen member of the development charge update peer review committee

1:06:24But those of you who have been on council long term know that I have been banging on this

1:06:31Banging the drum on this issue for many years

1:06:34I first attended a council workshop mr. Can mr. Scanlon gave to the quarry council in 2005

1:06:40Councillors downer and billings were also in attendance

1:06:45It was quite an epiphany for me to come to understand the hidden subsidies

1:06:49Citizens were giving to growth and how low density sprawl becomes a permanent drain on the tax base

1:06:56It's my belief that most citizens would be

1:07:00outraged if they clearly

1:07:02Understood the degree to which their pockets are being picked to pay for growth

1:07:08With the size of the growth subsidy about to go off the charts thanks to bills bill 23, perhaps the penny will finally drop

1:07:17Staff has pegged the non dc portion of growth related costs for the next 10 years at

1:07:24747

1:07:25Million dollars and that's as you heard is not based on a housing pledge amount

1:07:31And since there is no development charge tooth fairy

1:07:35That money will be coming from the wallets of current wealth citizens either through property taxes or water and wastewater fees

1:07:43On an annual basis. That's around 75 million dollars

1:07:48per year in diverted dollars

1:07:51It's like building a new library

1:07:54every year

1:07:57I'd like to address

1:07:59The mirage about being

1:08:01Made whole you heard mr. Scanlon lay out his reasoning as to why he sees no evidence to support this particular fantasy

1:08:09and

1:08:10As you heard the kicker is that minister clark's assumption

1:08:13Maybe that wealth will be made whole through the property taxes on the new housing

1:08:18But we all know those taxes are needed to provide services to these new residents and also to tackle the massive

1:08:26Structure deficit. Sorry, it's not my slides

1:08:31Why would we want to act like

1:08:34Clark griswold in the film christmas vacation

1:08:38Buying a swimming pool on the basis of a hoped for christmas bonus

1:08:43The biggest difference for me is that even if wealth is made whole by the province

1:08:47It's still coming out of my

1:08:50pocket

1:08:52I don't see why I or any other citizen should be subsidizing growth whether it's through my municipal provincial or federal taxes

1:09:02The lack of accountability around whether or not these subsidies will even achieve the desired outcomes and how they will be enforced is

1:09:11unacceptable

1:09:13How do we know that we won't be building housing inventory for multinational corporations who are padding their investment portfolios?

1:09:22Who will be paying to deliver the required oversight?

1:09:26You heard mr. Scanlon say that in the decades he has spent doing this work

1:09:31He has never seen a drop in dc's or lot levies translate into lower purchase prices for home buyers

1:09:40The most perverse thing about the dc's subsidy scheme is that it's going to the wealthiest members of our society

1:09:48developers and middle and upper income home buyers

1:09:52Council is constantly scraping the barrel for money for supportive how supportive and rent geared to income housing

1:10:00But suddenly we have seven hundred and forty seven million dollars of public money to prop up the wealthiest people in our society

1:10:10Wealth inequality is toxic and corrosive and this funding scheme amplifies it

1:10:17This dc subsidy siphons money away from renters and current homeowners

1:10:22including low income seniors

1:10:26If development fees are waived we could be subsidizing individual homes to the tune of

1:10:33eighty five thousand dollars each for one single detached house

1:10:39As city councilors

1:10:41You are also fiduciaries

1:10:43You are responsible for sound financial decision making around public

1:10:49public money and property

1:10:53So what are the options? What are your choices here?

1:10:57so

1:10:58unaffordable property tax rates

1:11:01slashing services and amenities

1:11:04unsustainable debt

1:11:06or allowing infrastructure to crumble

1:11:08Councillor Caron wondered allowed at a previous meeting if wealth could rescind the housing pledge if we discover we can't afford it

1:11:17Well, I think you've been given that information this evening

1:11:21I think it's time. Sorry. That's your I'm sorry. That is your five minutes up

1:11:26You are only delicate. Did you just have a like a couple more sentences paragraph? Okay?

1:11:30I'm gonna let it go tonight. Just finish it off. I'll let it go. Thank you

1:11:33It's time to rescind the housing pledge and implement an interim control bylaw to freeze growth

1:11:40Like calling wood and clear water have done

1:11:42You are elected to represent the citizens of gulf

1:11:46Not dug ford and his developer cronies. Thank you

1:11:51Okay, thank you. Is there any follow-up question at all for the delegate?

1:11:55Not seeing any and

1:11:57All so thank you for coming and I do want to just recognize that you were on the peer group study, I believe

1:12:03So thank you for your service there too. Okay. I appreciated

1:12:06All right. Thank you. Thank you very much

1:12:09all right, so it's back to us and

1:12:12you know, we do have the

1:12:15The recommendation in front of us which is just to receive this information. That's all it is

1:12:20So would someone be willing to move that? All right, Richardson and and galler would be

1:12:25Willing to move and second that so it's at least on the floor for us

1:12:29uh

1:12:31Thank you

1:12:33Staff to all of you for for everything really appreciate it

1:12:38And is there any like follow-up questions that need to be

1:12:41Hammered out before I call the vote at all. Okay. I'll go with alt and then uh

1:12:46Guller please and then over to keaton. Thank you very much. Um, I have two questions first question and both are for staff

1:12:54First question is really in two parts

1:12:56Um, the the dc shortfall. I'm just very curious. Perhaps it's only one question

1:13:03That number year by year. What does that mean to an average tax bill?

1:13:12Through the marita counselor. Oh, we're working through that but generally

1:13:16We would expect to see the upfront cost of that be somewhat higher because that phase in starts high at 20 percent and

1:13:23Works it way its way down over five years

1:13:27um, but the caveat to that would be that the regulations haven't been released for some of those exemptions

1:13:34um

1:13:35So the affordable and attainable housing so we don't know the timeline for that so that may not

1:13:40Hit us right away

1:13:42So we are working on a plan to sort of try to build in the impact to the taxes and rates of the phase in

1:13:49Um, and the exemptions um, and we'll bring that back to you through the multi-year budget

1:13:54And I would presume that that would be calculated on top of what our predicted tax increase might be

1:14:02For this coming tax year based on what we have calculated for the multi-year budget

1:14:06So it'd be above and beyond that

1:14:09Through the mayor that is correct. Okay. Thank you

1:14:11The other question I have is perhaps a bit more technical and that's about

1:14:15A letter that we did receive from mr. Ian panabaker. I just got to read the

1:14:21pertinent part planning target is presented is

1:14:2512,560 units over the next 10 years while the housing target is now pledged at 18,000 an increase of 40 percent

1:14:32The dc study needs to be based on this new target

1:14:36We urge council and staff to take the time needed to get a new planning number

1:14:40Incorporated into this work

1:14:42um, so uh, the study can provide the complete quantum of the projects and costs required over the next 10 years

1:14:50I was wondering if you could comment on on mr. Panabaker's comment that we're not ready yet in some senses

1:15:01Uh through you mr. Mayor. I think to some extent I've addressed this but there um, a lot of the work that has been done

1:15:10with respect to planning's

1:15:12planning targets and in the approvals and well as well the um, the master plans

1:15:18We're originally on you know anticipating over the next 10 years that lower 12,700 target

1:15:26um

1:15:27Reshifting gears you can't just do it in six months. There are implications

1:15:31We have to figure out the implications on the capital budget the operating budget, etc. So that um, and as I've explained

1:15:39um

1:15:41I don't think there's a problem in that

1:15:44You know if the if the forecast using the 12 5 says oh, it's only a six year forecast instead of a 10

1:15:51We're just going to update the the dc faster

1:15:54so to jump ahead and make a number of

1:15:59I hate to use the term rash but to to make a bunch of uninformed

1:16:05Uh adjustments and calculations, etc. I don't think does council

1:16:09Uh a direct service and it's not not good for the public as well. That's why we're continuing with this

1:16:15staff will be evolving

1:16:18you know

1:16:20Implications of trying to achieve that 18,000

1:16:23So what i'm hearing you say is we're taking a reasoned cautious approach to this that uh that we can feel comfortable with

1:16:30Um despite what the hand that we've been dealt

1:16:34Through the mayor, I think that's reasonable to to say that

1:16:39Okay, thank you councillor

1:16:41So I'll go to galler and then kate, please

1:16:45Actually, uh, I am good to worship. Thank you. Great. I've had a couple of us a oh, maybe councillor alts questions, uh

1:16:52Covered off others. So thank you. Uh, kate and then downer

1:16:57Mayor staff, um, so just based on my reading of the uh dc fees per type of build

1:17:07My understanding is that high density apartments kind of give you the most bang for the buck

1:17:12In terms of the dc fees per space allotted versus property tax. Is that correct?

1:17:22Sorry, I through the mayor if i'm going to answer it. I wasn't quite sure could you repeat the the question for me?

1:17:29I wasn't clear on the question. I'll ask you different way. Um,

1:17:33so when I was going through the charts of you know single family versus townhouses versus apartments

1:17:40And other options and I was just looking at the dc fees

1:17:44Um, I'm just trying to think of like whether or not we should be encouraging

1:17:48one type of housing over another to be built

1:17:51for uh, the best use space

1:17:54Compared to the fees that we're going to be getting and how we can build sustainably moving forward

1:17:59So I was just thinking is it the case that apartments and higher density

1:18:05Is going to be the more sustainable approach versus townhouses and single family units

1:18:15through the mayor, I think there's a whole bunch of

1:18:17Things that have to be considered and answering that I've I've just undertaken the calculation for you

1:18:24I think uh, as you can see with the apartments and such

1:18:29There's not only the phase in but then there's the discounts for

1:18:33You know apartments and such so from a cost recovery per capita

1:18:38You don't quite get the cost recovery per capita on the high density that you would on the low density

1:18:44But that's just a financial perspective

1:18:47On the other side you'd have to take a look at what the

1:18:50Assessment from the operating what assessment do you generate per capita depending on the types of housing?

1:18:56So there's a number of factors to completely get my head around

1:19:01that answer but

1:19:03So I I don't think I can fully answer it counselor

1:19:07Thank you

1:19:10Thank you. Councillor caiten. Uh downer than a work

1:19:12Thank you through you mr. Mayor

1:19:15To mr. Scanlon. So I just just going back to um,

1:19:20Ms. Watson's delegation about moratorium of freezing growth. So

1:19:24You mentioned that calling wedding clear water have done this and my first question is

1:19:30Were they communities that collected DCs?

1:19:33Uh, so just to be clear, I it was water. It's an issue of water in clear view

1:19:40Uh, okay, I think well, she did say clear water, but it's clear view

1:19:44So calling would and then right below calling would to the south is clear view

1:19:50Okay, and their issue is that both of them have run out of water capacity

1:19:54So the moratorium there is because there's no more capacity

1:19:58um

1:20:01Clear view

1:20:03Are way outside the deck capacity they cannot build the the water infrastructure to support any

1:20:09More growth and they've exhausted their deck capacity just trying to continue to build

1:20:14The the infrastructure so their moratorium is until

1:20:19They can secure an agreement with developers then there's no more growth

1:20:25For whatever reason

1:20:27alling would

1:20:29ran out of capacity in the treatment facilities

1:20:32and so they're in the same the same boat and

1:20:36um

1:20:37They're having to deal with the financial impacts of trying to build that infrastructure, which I think is a hundred and

1:20:43I can't remember 160 million dollars or something 120 million that they're facing to to build that new plant

1:20:49No, call it. I know calling wedges just been through an amazing growth

1:20:54in the last couple years there

1:20:57They've exhausted their yeah, did they ever collect DCs? Is that both of them have oh they both have okay

1:21:03so I'm just sort of curious. I mean

1:21:07And I this doesn't have to be a political answer, but do you anticipate that

1:21:12More communities if we're having to use more debt

1:21:15on financing in order to create more services

1:21:19Will be

1:21:20Could there be more municipalities that find themselves in this situation where they'll have to put moratoriums on growth

1:21:29So through the mayor, um, yeah for those municipalities that are are exhausting their water and wastewater

1:21:37Uh, they'll have to assess whether they have the cash to do it

1:21:42Putting as soon as you put in like you take a look and say oh look at the treatment plan

1:21:45It's going to be this cost and I'm going to put in a new charge all of a sudden you've already dropped down to the 80 percent

1:21:52I'll just give you if I might give you a personal opinion. Uh, and I have expressed this through I was uh

1:21:58one of the members that was able to speak to the uh to the committee that as we're going through and and considering

1:22:05Bill 23

1:22:07My statements are public

1:22:09um

1:22:11Other services, maybe I can I can I can

1:22:15Deal with but water and wastewater I can never accept if the if the province is trying to achieve a housing target

1:22:24Taking the money away from water and wastewater services

1:22:28Makes it difficult for you to create the supply

1:22:32You need to serve as the land so they can build

1:22:37If you need to delay a park or delay a uh a recreation facility, that's not the best

1:22:43But that doesn't have the same impact if you've run out of sewage or water treatment capacity

1:22:50my

1:22:52recommendation my plea to the board uh to the the committee was

1:22:56Do not do anything

1:22:58Do not remove the studies you need the master plan studies to plan

1:23:02You need the to be able to receive 100 of the infrastructure because municipalities have to embed

1:23:09before

1:23:10And put it in the ground before you even start so

1:23:15That's that that's the area that I'm most uh disappointed in. Yeah, so who knows where we'll end up with that

1:23:23I don't know. Yeah, but you can see there are communities that are now faltering

1:23:28Yeah, because they're you know from the financial perspective. It's becoming difficult. Okay, and so that could be more prevalent. Okay. Thank you

1:23:40Uh to more arour can cause them and then billings it looks like three more

1:23:45Uh, thank you, mayor Guthrie

1:23:47through you to staff I have a

1:23:50How does this work question?

1:23:52a more substantive question and then a philosophical question so

1:23:57Um, so the how does this work piece? I'm just going back to the exemption

1:24:03On the affordable rental unit

1:24:06So when rent is no more than 80 of the average market rent defined by a new bulletin tbd magical bulletin. We haven't seen yet

1:24:13um

1:24:15But there's no rent control now on buildings occupied after 2018

1:24:20So is this city supposed to track?

1:24:23What the rent will be in these buildings?

1:24:26And if they rents are no longer 80 below market, do we get to go and collect the development charges like what?

1:24:33process occurs

1:24:35for us to track this and

1:24:38and understand or does somebody do I don't know like a loss leader to get you into the store

1:24:44and

1:24:45You know, it's the zeirs chicken, right?

1:24:49Counselor that's a very good question. Do I have the answer? No, I think this is where

1:24:54It was announced in the legislation. I had understood rightly or wrongly that

1:25:00um

1:25:02We would have seen this bulletin by march

1:25:05We haven't seen the bulletin yet

1:25:07I think as I understand

1:25:10The government is now reaching out to different

1:25:15Organizations my understanding is there's uh, they will be engaging with a couple of committees

1:25:22To address this but they have the example that I use for

1:25:28Oakville was one that I used earlier on in their process

1:25:32And I demonstrated to them when you do this type of thing

1:25:35It's extremely difficult because in oakville. I got like seven different

1:25:39Areas that have very distinct different costs, you know and uh going, you know

1:25:45High to low and are you just going to take the midpoint?

1:25:48Or are you going to wait it or are you going to have seven different zones?

1:25:53And I think that's part of their

1:25:55The challenge

1:25:57And once they get into the the depth of the policy

1:26:01How do you make it work?

1:26:04So that's that's where we sit right now counselor and I um

1:26:09Million dollar question. Yep

1:26:12Or more

1:26:13Um

1:26:14So through the mayor to counsel ararca. I just wanted to add one more thing just in terms of how it will work

1:26:19I think that you've seen like even just with the the changes and

1:26:23The different phasons for the different types and they were like payments over five years payments over 21 years

1:26:30Then they're exempt the complexity that started like that has been infused into just the collection and management of all of these different scenarios has just

1:26:40ballooned

1:26:41And so then we add, you know, then you add in kind of this these new pieces too

1:26:45I think it's there's a lot of outstanding

1:26:48Questions that we're trying to work through but the the administration of the act now and like the payments has just become

1:26:56very complex

1:26:58Okay, thank you. So my uh substantive question

1:27:03Um is for the draft capital program by service

1:27:06I'm and perhaps this is a capital conversation. Perhaps this is a budget question

1:27:12But the parks and rec line is at 430 million dollars, right for gross capital cost estimate for 2023

1:27:20And that's more than transit

1:27:23Um, it's second only to services related to a highway. So I know that from what is currently part of the dc's

1:27:30To what is proposed. It's not a big increase, but I'm just wondering

1:27:35Um, why such a high amount on parks and rec?

1:27:40I understand there's a rec center coming with the groundbreaking this fall. I understand there's a parks and rec master plan

1:27:46But it just seemed like a significant proportion and I was curious why

1:27:51Sure through the mayor um to counselor or work so and and you sort of indicated this

1:27:56I mean our capital budget forecast forecast is what guides a lot of this work. Um, and we uh

1:28:01Align that with our refresh strategic plan

1:28:04So city building is what kind of encapsulates a lot of that parks and rec and it has been

1:28:07I think as mr.

1:28:08Just can then point out parks and rec was combined into one this time around

1:28:12Um, and so we'd use all of those sort of master plans and documents a number that you've mentioned

1:28:17But what I think is probably the most noteworthy in terms of those gross capital cost estimate values for the parks and rec

1:28:23And why they may appear misaligned simply is um related to the total number of projects

1:28:29Specifically on our parks side

1:28:31You've mentioned at the south end community center. Uh Wellington park is another significant

1:28:36Chunk of that and the urban forest management plan

1:28:39So those three I would say in particular are sizable

1:28:43amounts that may be

1:28:46I think it's more of an optics thing related to those size of those projects

1:28:49But then just the cumulative amount of parks and new trails

1:28:53That are in the capital plan is I think where you're seeing that how those numbers

1:28:57I should go

1:28:59Okay, thanks and through you mr. Mayor. Um, my last question is about

1:29:04These competing priorities, right? So the report says the dc exemptions will slow the pace of infrastructure

1:29:10Uh, which will slow the pace of growth

1:29:13But that's contrary to our housing pledge. So how how are we supposed to reconcile those two?

1:29:18It's another million dollar question, but

1:29:21What is our plan to meet the housing pledge?

1:29:25um

1:29:26even with the

1:29:28the reduced revenues

1:29:35So I would uh through the mayor to councillor rork

1:29:40Again, I like you said it's it's a bit of a

1:29:43That's the big question. Um staff right now are are working through all of this with the capital plan

1:29:49and

1:29:50And looking out through this entire forecast and looking at that debt capacity kind of basically everything that's been talked about tonight

1:29:57That is the work that's being done right now

1:30:00And and then that will be back in front of of council to have those types of conversations

1:30:08About balancing all all pressures and how to best utilize that debt capacity

1:30:14and and recommendations for next steps, and I don't know if yeah, uh,

1:30:19cio

1:30:20So through you mr. Mayor. Thank you very much. I and I'll remind all of us when you

1:30:25Had to force yourself to sign that pledge. You said you cannot do it alone

1:30:30That stands true today as well

1:30:32Development industry and the province have got roles to play

1:30:36So as as much as we're committed and you heard that we are committed to and you are too to hit these targets

1:30:42You cannot do it with these reductions from dc's

1:30:46So somebody has to make us whole

1:30:48And we kind of snickered a little bit at that because we're in we're in judgment of it's likely not going to happen

1:30:54But if it doesn't

1:30:55You cannot we cannot and we will not be the only municipalities

1:30:59There is canaries in the coal mine here. You're here in that today with what

1:31:03Mr. Scanlon is saying other municipalities are starting to falter

1:31:08So good on us. You've got reserves good in us. We've got some good master plans and we've done all that work

1:31:14But good on you too as a council to say we cannot do this by ourselves

1:31:18And I think we have to come back to that council or along the way tonight

1:31:23Last week when we were talking about housing

1:31:26In september when we talk about the left side of that

1:31:29Continuum and then when we get into october november december

1:31:32Well, it would probably be november given the time constraints on the budget approvals

1:31:36That will be all places that we have to identify this as an issue

1:31:40Because it's factual and and nothing we were seeing from the province

1:31:44Has reduced the cost of building development and I and I think gary said that well

1:31:50He hasn't seen the he hasn't seen the benefit go back to the buyers of the homes the rest of us will pay it

1:31:55So terry got it right the last time we are all paying for growth

1:31:59But I think we have to come back to that position that council has taken

1:32:02Where are the other parties?

1:32:04So tonight we'll feel a bit gloomy about all of this because it is gloomy

1:32:08But where are the other partners and I think that question shouldn't be lost in our dialogue

1:32:11I think it's a good one for us to remind herself

1:32:14We committed to ask and others to participate

1:32:17Although you were forced to sign the pledge the equation should have had all of those

1:32:21But you did the smart thing by including them and keep telling ourselves that especially in anti advocacy

1:32:26And correspondence that we might have it's something like aim. Oh next month

1:32:30Thank you. Thank you very much

1:32:35Okay, thank you. Got a few more here. We'll just keep moving along. We got

1:32:39cost and buildings goller

1:32:42Thank you

1:32:43Councillor work answered asked one of my questions, but I will ask just one clarifying question

1:32:49I think I think you said it already

1:32:52I just I wanted to be sure on page

1:32:5532 there's the potential impact of bill 23 on dc revenues and I think we said 232 million

1:33:03That's that's over a 10-year period. Is that correct?

1:33:08Through the mayor, that's correct. That's 10-year period and there are some estimates in there. So per year

1:33:14Um, and we had estimated it in the the housing presentation last week

1:33:19Um, you know, it could be upwards right now or around five and a half to six million in exemptions a year that we're currently seeing

1:33:27Um, and so that could go upwards of you know, into the 22 23 million annually

1:33:31Um, if everything was implemented, but again, there's still some of those regulations that stand it. Thank you

1:33:39Thank you

1:33:41Buildings then goller through you mr. Mayor. So okay, so you say we'll we'll see the

1:33:50tax and rate impact increase at budget time

1:33:54But we're going to have another meeting in october on dcs and then um right now

1:33:59It's uh, have your say is out there

1:34:02But don't you find it difficult to for people to have their say when they're not shown the tax and rate impact?

1:34:09That's going to affect them

1:34:15So so through the mayor to councillor billings

1:34:18I mean, I guess I would come back to the purpose of the dc study

1:34:22Is to collect is to to set a revenue rate

1:34:26And that and that is what we're doing and we're trying to set that revenue rate for development charges at at the most

1:34:32That get the maximum that we we can collect under the legislation and that's really the purpose of the study

1:34:39I agree with your great impact in that that's more at the budget time. It really there's not um

1:34:46I mean unless you're going to factor in like and you're going to add new exemptions in we could talk about what that would look like

1:34:53But these these are legislated parts. And so that's I mean, I I don't personally believe that uh,

1:35:01the

1:35:02rate and and tax impact at this point um

1:35:07Impacts the the decision before council in terms of what the the dc rate is that's being calculated

1:35:14Okay, then through you mr. Mayor, but if people did know then terra

1:35:18Because there's also the parkland dedication and community benefit charges that there's an issue with that with respect to bill 23 as

1:35:25As well

1:35:26If people did know the impact with respect to their their tax and rate increases

1:35:31To have your say maybe more people would comment about saying slow the rate of growth

1:35:36So there so therefore those some of those capital projects would be put back pushed back

1:35:43That's where i'm coming from

1:35:45Does that make sense?

1:35:50um, so

1:35:51Through the mayor. I guess again, I would I would just

1:35:56The dc study is built upon approved

1:35:59Plans the official plan the master plans and those have already had a lot of engagement and those things have been approved

1:36:07um, this is a study and we're we're engaging on the

1:36:13The rate increase and and the effect of that rate increase

1:36:17Related to the dc charge itself

1:36:20um, so

1:36:22Again, I would I would say that it

1:36:25The the rate of growth and the pace of growth is really not the decision

1:36:30That's before council with the dc background study

1:36:34And the it's a revenue tool. It's a revenue setting process

1:36:41Yes, and and you know, I understand that terra

1:36:45Correct. It was just that I was trying to say if we push some capital projects and defer them and we push them out of those 10 years

1:36:54Would not the rate change

1:37:03So through mr. Through you mr. Mayor

1:37:07um

1:37:08Potentially there are some works that you can do that

1:37:12But there's going to be some works that you can't obviously water and wastewater if you're going to

1:37:17Target the amount of growth and I keep coming back to it. There are requirements to expand treatment

1:37:24capacity and

1:37:27You know and the distribution system take

1:37:31Um

1:37:33Uh, clear malty for example

1:37:35And then associated with that there are going to be some roads that are going to be needed as well

1:37:39So, I mean if you're talking that maybe we can grow and not provide for parks or maybe not recreation or maybe not libraries or

1:37:48Pick the service those other ones potentially might be delayed

1:37:52That's a choice that you'll make through the uh the budgeting process

1:37:57If you are to

1:37:59Want to achieve your targets

1:38:01Um, you must continue along with the infrastructure build

1:38:07Mm-hmm

1:38:08It's just that these targets now we're getting the shortfall in the report and and the shortfall is is enormous

1:38:16So I just want to go to um

1:38:20Now mr. Scanlon had this up on one of the slides it is

1:38:25The gross expenditure and sources of revenue summary for costs

1:38:32incurred over the life of the bylaw, which is 10 years

1:38:35So I totally understand the total gross cost. We have over 1.8 billion and you go across

1:38:42You have tax base and or other non dc sources

1:38:46So other funding other deductions and you have benefit to existing

1:38:52I totally understand that however when you move to the right to the to the

1:38:56To the very right you have dc reserve fund. So it's not dcs that are

1:39:02Collected it's just the amount of money that's in the dc reserve

1:39:08so when I think of what are the

1:39:11Sources of revenue that would be

1:39:14dcs collected

1:39:15that would be

1:39:17We could get it from grants taxes rates and such

1:39:21But the last two columns here are the dc reserve fund

1:39:27So within that fund

1:39:29We're short over 200 million dollars, which we will have to the city will have to

1:39:36subsidize and put money into the dc reserve fund

1:39:41But that over 200 million dollars is not identified

1:39:46On this table

1:39:49So if I didn't understand how dcs worked

1:39:52I would say okay. It just looks like total 1.8 billion

1:39:57Yeah, you've got some deductions and grants you've got benefit to existing and it kind of looks like that's the city portion there

1:40:04Is under the tax base and other non dc sources?

1:40:08And then to the right you've got the other columns

1:40:12But there's a shortfall. There is a shortfall to those columns on the right-hand side

1:40:19Do you understand what I mean?

1:40:20Yes, through you mr. Mayor. She's absolutely correct and I think I pointed it out

1:40:25That the amount for the first 10 years represents about 830 some odd million dollars of that 830 million

1:40:33We're not going to be able to recover

1:40:37227 million and that's about 28 percent that I've noted so there's an additional 28 percent

1:40:45Revenue we're not going to get

1:40:48You're absolutely correct. So so my so I'm just asking because you're going to come back in october

1:40:54If you have another table similar to this, is it possible to show

1:40:58Because here we go tax base and other non dcable sources. These are revenue sources. However

1:41:05Another revenue source that's going to hit the tax and the rates is this over 200 million dollars

1:41:12So it's just it's not clear and it doesn't show that so to a person saying okay as a city

1:41:17What are we truly picking up?

1:41:20Well, we're picking up

1:41:22663 million

1:41:24plus

1:41:26this over 200 million of a shortfall because of

1:41:30Exemptions and such and I was just wondering is there a way to show this in a table

1:41:36And to put that shortfall in the table so that anyone

1:41:39It's just like it's going out to the public. Have your say can read this table

1:41:44And totally understand that oh wait a minute

1:41:47The city's got to pick up over another 200 million dollars and that 200 million dollars goes into the bc reserve fund

1:41:54So that's my question. Is there a way that you can tweak it?

1:41:57So when you come back so that it clearly clearly shows to anyone reading this

1:42:02Hey, there's more than

1:42:04663 million that the city is picking up

1:42:08Through you mr. Mayor. It's easy enough to provide that additional

1:42:12Table in the presentation so we can accommodate you

1:42:16Okay

1:42:17That would that would be great because it's just the way everything was written. It looked like you know

1:42:22We talked about the 747 million. Anyways, it was just kind of convoluted. That's all and to have the table that shows clearly that would be

1:42:32That would be really helpful

1:42:34um, the other thing I wanted to talk about is

1:42:37And it does deal with the dc's because it's the projects in the capital budget and building the budget

1:42:42So is the only lever then that we have now?

1:42:46Because now we've seen this shortfall of over 200 million dollars. Is the capital budget?

1:42:51Is that the only lever that we have to to slow this rate of growth down to defer projects because

1:42:59I I personally believe we can't we cannot afford this shortfall and we can't afford all these exemptions

1:43:06so

1:43:08So I guess I guess when I'm saying building the budget how how do we how do we how do we do this?

1:43:15Do we put the projects in but yet there's like a holding symbol there?

1:43:19So that if we don't receive money from upper levels of government then we don't move forward like so

1:43:25I guess that's my my question for finances. What what levers do we have?

1:43:35um, so through the mayor and council billings, um, we we

1:43:39have

1:43:41uh, I guess talked about this and and

1:43:45Had answered this previously as well as yeah, the budget sets the pace

1:43:49of investment and uh, and that's really that's the tool where you make those types of disavings

1:43:55But through you mr. Bear, well, I'm talking about when you when you build the budget and you show us this but yet we don't have the money

1:44:03You know, we're looking at taking up more debt

1:44:06Like is it just year by year? That's how we're going to do it with deciding what moves forward

1:44:13um

1:44:19Through through the mayor to council billings. We're going to present you the 10-year capital plan like we do

1:44:24Uh, like we normally do and so it won't be just year by year. You'll have the full, uh, 10-year

1:44:30forecast

1:44:35Okay, I just I find this

1:44:38Frustrating because now it's the mayor's budget

1:44:41So that's why I'm saying do we just go year by year? Yes. I know we see the 10-year capital forecast

1:44:48and and but council used to approve

1:44:51Definitely the four-year. However

1:44:54It was always confirmation

1:44:56All is I'm saying is I don't know how we're going to afford this

1:45:00So is it just something every single year?

1:45:05Uh at council then

1:45:07We we deal with this shortfall and we can't afford

1:45:13I I don't know

1:45:21Through the mayor, I believe that the response is is that this is part of the budget process and that budget decision

1:45:28That will be coming back and that there'll be a

1:45:31significant conversation about um, and and that comes back to council each year

1:45:36Yeah, even even with a confirmation year that that will come back

1:45:40Okay

1:45:43Thanks

1:45:45Hey, thanks counselor, uh color is my last

1:45:49Thank you your worship

1:45:51I looking for a bit of clarity on the uh different rates attached to different

1:45:57Types of homes and this was uh raised by councillor uh, k-10. So would a

1:46:04A single detached say it's 1,500 square feet

1:46:08Say say three bedrooms. Would it pay the same?

1:46:11$60,000 as a

1:46:134,000 square feet

1:46:15seven bedroom home

1:46:17Is it the same fee?

1:46:19Regardless the size of the number of bedrooms or the size of the of the unit and same with multi residential

1:46:26Is it the same for a two bedroom?

1:46:29Row house than a four bedroom four bedroom row house

1:46:35Yes, we

1:46:38And I can I can guide you to the section we have very

1:46:42unique data that we collect from stascant and

1:46:46We can we can we break?

1:46:49housing

1:46:51Into a low medium and high density. So, you know singles singles and semis and then the medium and then the high

1:46:58We can then we also break it down into five-year blocks. So we know the newer

1:47:04newer homes have higher occupancy than older homes

1:47:08Uh, and then we can also break it down by number of bedrooms

1:47:12And for all of those categories

1:47:15the norm is to it's um is to

1:47:19Uh break down the apartments into different sizes

1:47:24Uh, you know, that's why I say we have the you know

1:47:28Baster sorry studio in one bedroom and then larger and then the very small

1:47:34We've categorized medium and high medium and low density as one particular type

1:47:41You could break it down into sub components the thing that happens is

1:47:48And I've seen it where

1:47:50Uh, a development plan may come in and all of a sudden you have two dens in one bedroom

1:47:56Uh, but it's actually uh each den

1:47:59Each one of those dens have a sign on suite. So it's being called a den but you know

1:48:04It the the duct seems to whack a little bit a little bit the same

1:48:09So, I mean we get into some of those matters and just saying that I've seen some creative things

1:48:14The norm is to consolidate the the um, uh

1:48:19The the low density has won now. I think you also we're talking about square footage

1:48:25Believe it or not. We've done studies on the size of homes

1:48:30And the smaller the home the the higher the occupancy

1:48:35Uh, which normally goes start of families start out with a smaller home because of affordability

1:48:41And then you know as you age and stuff like that you move into different homes and perhaps

1:48:49You know and what happens over time I built my house 25 years ago

1:48:53There was myself and my wife and three kids now

1:48:58There's only my wife and myself and I didn't do anything dastardly to the children

1:49:02I just encouraged them to to leave the nest but that's the natural thing is too is as you're you're up

1:49:08Moving up and hopefully by a slightly bigger house or whatever you might want

1:49:13um

1:49:14The occupancy goes down. So there's a lot of weird stuff that goes on

1:49:18We the the norm is to track it on a person person per unit basis and that's the data we have

1:49:25If you look in appendix a

1:49:27You'll see that detailed information that we have specifically for guelph

1:49:31I guess I'm trying to understand why

1:49:34If we want to encourage more

1:49:36uh compact homes

1:49:39uh smaller homes

1:49:40That have a smaller footprint say say on the lot would we not want to

1:49:45Um make that difference. So if someone is building

1:49:48A mega home that that takes up as much footprint as possible leaves very little space on the lot

1:49:55Would we not want to encourage folks to leave more green space build more compact bills smaller?

1:50:01Uh to give us higher density

1:50:04Um

1:50:05You you could I'm just suggesting that there are some very creative things that happen

1:50:11right?

1:50:13How that would be

1:50:16Played with but my my question here is that if someone is building a 1500 square foot home

1:50:23Um, they're paying the same as someone that is building a 5000 square foot

1:50:28Many mansion right?

1:50:30So effectively that person that has more money is getting a wholesale discount

1:50:35Under development charges and as I say we could stratify it by the number of bedrooms

1:50:40That would be the way to do it doing it by square footage

1:50:45Um, we've done number of studies and it doesn't work on square footage

1:50:49And what why not because we have the non-residential by square footage. Yes

1:50:53So why do we not have the residential by square footage?

1:50:57um

1:51:00As I say what the studies we've done is the smaller the house

1:51:05The higher the occupancy

1:51:07on average

1:51:09and so there's a bit of a

1:51:11uh

1:51:12and when even when we look at square footage for

1:51:16um on the non-residential side

1:51:19We relate employment

1:51:21And average square footage per employee by different categories

1:51:25We do extensive studies on that in order to support, you know, like industrial may be running at 1500 square feet per employee

1:51:34Where commercial may be running roughly at about four four hundred and fifty. So we do

1:51:40Look at the square footage

1:51:42We look at the the employee and then look at the square footage on that

1:51:45We try to do the do the same thing on the population side. It doesn't work out

1:51:51mm-hmm

1:51:52so so

1:51:54I am hearing that it is possible

1:51:56So we could give direction and I mean, I know that it's too late now

1:51:59But for the next update before so through the mayor, it's not too late if we wanted to do it by bedroom

1:52:07We could generate a charge

1:52:09I'm suggesting that it's very uh to move towards a

1:52:14a square foot per home

1:52:16Uh doesn't work out the same way that you would hope it well. I hear that

1:52:22You may have more people living but if we have say

1:52:25A family of of five living in a in a two bedroom home

1:52:30presumably they would have

1:52:31They um less disposable income than a family of two that is living in a five bedroom home

1:52:37so would we not want to then

1:52:40um

1:52:42Have the higher charge so that people that have more disposable income are paying a higher proportion than those that are

1:52:48struggling to buy their starter home

1:52:50so through the mayor you're I think you're you're moving into

1:52:56uh

1:52:57Something akin to tax policy or some type of revenue policy

1:53:02the reality is

1:53:03we have

1:53:04175

1:53:06omb olt case law cases

1:53:09Plus the legislation that give us a lot of parameters on how we must define these things

1:53:16If you want to split bedroom if you want a single family and say let's do a small one

1:53:22and let's do a

1:53:23you know one to two bedroom

1:53:26and uh or you know three bedroom larger

1:53:30We can do that now

1:53:33the the the challenge is

1:53:36Can we all of a sudden over 10 years? There's no

1:53:40Houses that are built with three bedrooms or more everything is

1:53:44Two bedrooms and then you end up with a loss

1:53:48and the key thing why I come back to uh persons per unit

1:53:53is um a lot of the measures that are done

1:53:57Are based on per capita's when you do your water capacity your sewage capacity. They're normally measuring flows per capita

1:54:05so they say okay, you know, uh

1:54:08per resident I need 300

1:54:10uh leaders per day per capita

1:54:13Of capacity so that when I take a single family home

1:54:17And it's running at three and a half persons per unit. I go three and a half persons per unit

1:54:23Times that flow per capita times the capital cost for that flow

1:54:28And you have your development charge

1:54:31That's the problem if we try and move off of these things

1:54:36How you're basing the the need for the service

1:54:39Versus what you've just calculated for the charge

1:54:43They don't mesh

1:54:45And if you saw on the quote for uh the kevin provide you, um, you know, you identify the the growth

1:54:52And I done identify the servicing needs associated with that growth

1:54:56So you're moving away from that and say using some other type of policy

1:55:01And that's where we have to be very careful. Okay. Okay. No, thank you for that. I respect it, uh, counselor

1:55:07I just unfortunately

1:55:09It's it's revenue policy versus

1:55:13Legislative policy. Okay. Okay. Uh, so just just to to to go a little bit further in terms of the uh, the apartments and

1:55:24Do we have a way through this to to

1:55:28Support or to incentivize building smaller units so that we have more because you could have a one bedroom

1:55:36That is 1500 square feet or you can have a three bedroom that is 1500 square feet

1:55:41so this doesn't actually incentivize for us to build

1:55:45smaller units and and uh,

1:55:47effectively have more units

1:55:49In in the city in a lower footprint. So

1:55:52Through through the mayor, I I I hear you. I think I think it's uh, interesting a discussion that but I need the assistance of

1:56:00Let's say planning to because you're we're crossing into a couple of different areas and and

1:56:06Off the cuff. I can't I can't give you a full answer

1:56:10But I think if we take it back and have that dialogue, I'm more than happy to come back with

1:56:15Some more information on it. Okay. And and this this ties back to one of the intentions that mayor Guthrie and I gave

1:56:21When we approved the sodium bylaw

1:56:24As of right now you can have up to three units per lot

1:56:27But we were interested in saying how about we have four units per lot

1:56:30so you could have effectively the same footprint one more unit and is

1:56:37But by looking at this they would actually be charged the same amount

1:56:41for that fourth unit

1:56:44As one of the other three units because it is a separate unit within that multiple

1:56:49Building, but if we found a way to

1:56:52Provide an additional incentive to build more compact form. I think we can get a more density in in our community

1:56:59So just something to take away. Thank you

1:57:06Is that a good enough takeaway as well then? Yeah, yeah, I think so we've it's well noted

1:57:11Okay, thanks counselor

1:57:13All right, I don't see anything further but you get me

1:57:17Lucky you the best to last no, no

1:57:21I am going I'm I'm

1:57:23I'm going to go as fast as I can and I'm gonna try to frame them as yes or no answers

1:57:28so that we can just

1:57:29go through it

1:57:31I just want to start with the math because I did it and who knows if I'm right or wrong, but I gave it a try

1:57:37So I did a

1:57:41232 million dollar shortfall over 10 years

1:57:46Which translates into about 23 million dollars a year

1:57:52And then I did

1:57:54dividing that by about

1:57:572.8 million dollars because

1:57:592.8 million dollars equals about 1 percent in our budget

1:58:04So I came up with an over 8 percent increase per year just on the shortfall

1:58:12Am I wrong?

1:58:17The only thing is it's not all property taxes

1:58:19So that's not as straightforward as that but I mean if you assumed it was all property taxes

1:58:24That would be in the ballpark, but it's it's a mix of water wastewater storm water as it feels. Yeah

1:58:30Property taxes sit still coming from the same wallet for the same

1:58:35Yes, as my dad taught me there's only one wallet

1:58:38Right, so okay

1:58:40So I'm not I'm not totally wrong. Okay

1:58:44Check mark beside that one for me

1:58:47Don't get many check marks. That's a good one

1:58:50Okay, I just want to

1:58:54Amplify what counselor katin started and what counselor gullard just finished on

1:59:00I've been talking to many other people in this kind of realm around

1:59:05DCs and incentives

1:59:09Around

1:59:11the mansion versus the homes for affordability

1:59:16And why are we charging?

1:59:18DCs in an equal manner

1:59:21So I appreciate the fact that staff will then yourself and maybe we'll take that away

1:59:25So I just want to amplify that

1:59:28Uh, I just want to get back to the 12,700 versus the 18,000

1:59:34So I hear what you're saying, but can I just ask staff? How long would it take?

1:59:39Kind of back to counselor alts question a little bit

1:59:42It's like well, we don't have those studies right now. We don't have those master plans updated yet

1:59:47Okay, I hear you how long would it how long would it take for you to get those updated so that we could do

1:59:54an 18,000

1:59:56Home study like are those master plan updates four months away from being done or are they a year from being done?

2:00:03I just don't know the answer to that

2:00:07Um, so to you mr. Mayor, I'm generally with our master plans. We do update them about every five years

2:00:13but I

2:00:15Okay, but I would say that in order to get them done

2:00:18Properly it would take about three years to probably get it done

2:00:22So just okay. Okay. I appreciate it. So just uh

2:00:26Just to update

2:00:28them

2:00:30Based on the difference between 12,000 and a bit to 18,000

2:00:35You're you're saying at least three years just for that update. I would say about three years

2:00:39I mean, we've got to do all the calculations again. We've got to do all the um,

2:00:43Financing again, we've got to do uh, along with what master plans you do a lot of public engagement as well that takes time

2:00:49Yeah, and right now that's not in the immediate work plans of the of staff. So

2:00:54um by the time

2:00:57Five years seems about right because a lot of these the master plans that we've just done about a year old

2:01:02Okay. Um, so we're only a year away anyway for getting going on the next version

2:01:07Okay, interesting. Okay. And so my final question then is

2:01:11um, is there something that staff could have us consider as an embed embedding into

2:01:18the october

2:01:20I'm sorry the january next year approval

2:01:23Where there's something embedded in that that recognizes that there will be a trigger at a certain year

2:01:30Like I think you mentioned five or six years out that there would be an update

2:01:35To address the 18,000 versus the 12,700 instead of just like kind of up in the air

2:01:41kind of like, oh, well, maybe update it in six years. Is there something that you could

2:01:46It has to be warranted. I understand but is there something you could bring back for us to consider that's something like that is embedded

2:01:52as direction

2:01:56So, yeah, we'll we'll take that away. We'll think about the best way to achieve what you're asking for

2:02:02And only if it's warranted like if you have a reason why it's not warranted

2:02:05I'm all ears for that. Okay

2:02:07The parks and rec thing that councillor O'Rourke brought up did that include

2:02:12Maybe to yourself calling if you don't mind or whoever can answer it

2:02:16Did that include any potential costs for that big community park in claremalpy?

2:02:22Or is it absent that we're we're just

2:02:30We're just looking it up, but that can be take away would

2:02:35We're pretty sure it is included in the figure. Okay. Okay this one

2:02:46Discretionary exemptions

2:02:50Is that something where you want feedback on that right now? Would you like that in October once the draft is here?

2:02:59um, so

2:03:01We would any feedback

2:03:04Now would be the best so we can do that work over the next three months

2:03:07So it doesn't have to be tonight, but yeah, if there's if there's things that

2:03:12Council would like us to look at that is the real purpose here is to make sure we've got the time to do so

2:03:19Okay, I won't get into specifics tonight, but maybe for some of the new counselors just to like I forget when it was

2:03:26Is it last term or maybe the term before?

2:03:29I remember I inquired about

2:03:31as an example the

2:03:34Like the black heritage societies upgrades

2:03:38To their building like there was a lot of charges for that

2:03:43But it's community good too, right so I think of like

2:03:48Currently we waive like places of worship for development charges like why wouldn't something like that also have a community good?

2:03:56um, so I

2:03:59I just I just throw it out there just for people to consider if there is exemptions

2:04:03And I know it just means that everyone else has to pay, but I'm just giving that as an example

2:04:07Maybe we can talk about it another time

2:04:09um, when you talked about the impact of bill 23

2:04:13uh

2:04:15With that overall impact over the 10 years did that include the already waving of exemptions of

2:04:23Like accessory units that were already being waived anyways

2:04:29Uh, yes, okay

2:04:31Okay, thank you

2:04:33uh, and then on the chart where it

2:04:37showed for semis and uh detached homes and it kind of had Guelph sitting in the middle at the very top and I wrote down that I saw

2:04:46Vaughan

2:04:47But there's brackets around Vaughan and it said it said it includes an area specific

2:04:53storm water charge

2:04:56So can you explain that?

2:04:59It in in Vaughan

2:05:00Do they have an extra charge that's sort of outside of the dc regime?

2:05:06Or the outside of the dc bylaw where that city has set up for growth related that they're charging something more to developers

2:05:15because of storm water

2:05:20So through two mister areas, uh, it is uh, they have done some unique

2:05:27Area rating area specific charges storm water management management being the key one

2:05:34So that some municipalities

2:05:37Don't charge don't include a charge for storm water at all

2:05:41And 100 of the cost of storm water management is

2:05:46a local service

2:05:47And then in other areas they allow for

2:05:53That to be an area specific

2:05:55now Vaughan and

2:05:57um

2:05:59Markham and Richmond Hill are a little bit unique

2:06:03In that you've got what you would have as a local service. What you'd have is a dc

2:06:08And those area specific

2:06:11Kind of blend the midpoint. So some of them are truly

2:06:15uh area specific, uh, sorry local service charges

2:06:19But they're allowing for the developers to do

2:06:21recoveries through an area specific

2:06:25So it's a little unique in the way that they've approached it. It's not the I would say the general norm

2:06:32So let me just read. Thank you. So let me rephrase the question just so I can maybe understand it a bit more

2:06:39Have they figured out a way

2:06:42Of creating another charge

2:06:44outside of the dc bylaw to recruit recoup infrastructure costs for growth

2:06:51They've allowed the uh for what they've done in that particular case for the storm water. They've allowed for uh

2:07:05A better cost sharing

2:07:07For that service. So maybe I'm the first person in or we're the first two in and we're doing it

2:07:13And doing that area charge allows for a flowback as the other developments proceed

2:07:20So some would say you guys run off and you know figure out how you're going to do the cost sharing together

2:07:27and uh, some municipalities they come uh, the developers come and say look at

2:07:33facilitate my cost sharing by putting in this uh, this special charge

2:07:37So there are different ways to work with agreements and such

2:07:41Yep

2:07:43So to staff is that something I'm not specifically saying storm water. Maybe there's another another issue, but

2:07:49A staff ever thought about looking at those levers

2:07:52similar to vaughan. What's an area charge?

2:07:55To generate revenue

2:07:58We we will look at it

2:08:00All right, that's another check mark

2:08:04I'm I got one left

2:08:06uh, so

2:08:08I'm a little bit concerned

2:08:10That we are not going to be competitive

2:08:13when it comes to industrial

2:08:16And the reason why is because I looked at that chart

2:08:19and

2:08:21especially geographically

2:08:23Guelph will be higher than waterloo

2:08:26Cambridge

2:08:28Kitchener Guelph are masa

2:08:31Much higher

2:08:34But you rightly said in your presentation

2:08:37That many of these ones are about to go or about to change

2:08:41And so you might see some movement in that competitive rates by our geographical neighbors

2:08:47So my ask is this to staff and to maybe yourself

2:08:50When this comes back in october would you mind at least outlining amongst some of our direct neighbors?

2:08:58or others

2:09:00With when you think the update of those bylaws may be coming

2:09:06Just so that we have a trigger to say oh, okay

2:09:09um

2:09:10We may be higher today

2:09:12But in three months kitcheners going and they might be up

2:09:16I just don't want to position ourselves from a competitive nature to attract industry and jobs here

2:09:22Where our surrounding areas will gather those people if we are not in the competitive range

2:09:27So having that those dates would I think just help give me some certainty around when when that stuff's happening

2:09:33Is that is that a possibility?

2:09:35Absolutely, we we track the information

2:09:37I'm just going to tell you that your neighbors qualifier masa because you brought it up

2:09:42We recently updated their charge, but their industrial isn't in the water and wastewater service area

2:09:49So that is you wrote in the in the more rural area

2:09:53They have to build their own septic system and water system. So you don't see it because

2:09:59They have to incur that cost themselves. It's not a municipal service. Yes. Thank you. Just to qualify. No, no, no

2:10:05No, I appreciate that but something like a kitchen or Cambridge or Waterloo would be you know within that 20 minute bubble of us

2:10:12I want

2:10:13I want there to always be a reason why people choose this city and sometimes for some industry it is just you know costs

2:10:21Even though we checked everything else for somebody, right? So I just want to be competitive

2:10:25Okay, that's that was it. Thank you for your thank you council for allowing me to ask some of those questions

2:10:30And oh I got a follow-up to council or alt and then I'll move the

2:10:34Actually, um, first of all, thanks very much to

2:10:38Watson and associate's and staff and it's been again a second in less than a couple weeks

2:10:44Workshop that's been incredibly informative and appreciative. I think we are certainly going into

2:10:50The next tax year in the next 10 with our eyes wide open

2:10:54the cynical part of me suggests that uh, the

2:10:58The number to make us whole will be significantly higher than what we've already predicted

2:11:03And and I'm thinking that because of such things as

2:11:06Perhaps the requirements to over build things like sewage and water because of global warming and so on factors

2:11:12We haven't considered and tender is going up significantly because of inflation of municipal price index

2:11:19Uh, I'm not even certain that we've seen the worst of this yet. Um, unless the government reconsider some things

2:11:25So thank you very much for allowing us in the public to be informed about what the the new normal is

2:11:31And it's certainly abnormal

2:11:34Yeah, thanks counselor. I appreciate that

2:11:37and um, seeing nothing further I'll just end with my comments on thanks again very informative always and

2:11:44Uh, this is this is a huge deal. I really do hope people are engaged in the have your say or they watch the workshop

2:11:51Or this meeting back just to try to be a bit more informed

2:11:54um, you know, I I must say, uh

2:11:58You know counselor billions was right when she was talking about the direct relation between this issue legislative changes and budget coming up

2:12:06I'm really concerned about we all we all are not just being and um

2:12:12You know, it makes me

2:12:14it makes me, uh

2:12:17Makes me really interested in how we're we're going to present the budget this year, uh in a way to show some of these impacts and

2:12:24um

2:12:26and choices

2:12:28And I remember last year. I know I floated that the the pill

2:12:33Provincial impacts local levy

2:12:35so that it was an identified amount for people to see what these changes are doing to the local level and uh

2:12:45You know with these dc changes and and uh and other impacts I

2:12:50I um anyways, we'll be have to it'll have to be some kind of a either a choice or a discussion point around how we

2:12:57How this budget is presented to the public because they need to know

2:13:00uh, where

2:13:03Where these impacts are housed. Nope. No pun intended. So

2:13:08Thank you so much. Really appreciate everybody. I'll call the vote then

2:13:12Is anyone against the receiving of this information?

2:13:16And that's nobody so that is uh, unanimous. I really appreciate that

2:13:22And I'm just gonna look to my colleagues for somebody to move in second. Uh, German for me. I've got a roark

2:13:28Is there bylaws? Oh, there is

2:13:32There's bylaws. I'm sorry and since uh councillor downer was the one who yelled out that there's bylaws to remind me

2:13:37You get to move them

2:13:39Okay, I'll move that bylaw number

2:13:412023 dash 20817

2:13:45be uh approved and uh be confirmed

2:13:48And uh, I think councillor busitile will second okay councillor busitile will second the bylaw. Thank you

2:13:55That's to confirm the proceedings of the meeting of the gulf city council held july 19 2023. Is anyone against that?

2:14:02Seeing that

2:14:03Is unanimous

2:14:05Right back to the adjournment. Who's going to do that for me a roark and seconder is alt for me

2:14:11And is anyone against adjournment?

2:14:14No, that means we're done. Have a good night. Thank you very much