Committee of the Whole

4:33Well, good afternoon everybody. It is one o'clock, so I'd like to call our committee of the whole meeting for February 4th, 2025 to order.

4:41Thank you so much for everyone joining us.

4:44Right off the top, I do have regrets from Clausson and from Boussatil.

4:50Councillor's Clausson and Boussatil, just to make that note.

4:53But on the open agenda, we do have an opportunity to move into a closed session just under two topics and they are disclosed and titled on the agenda for us.

5:03The first one being corporate cyber security briefing and that is under section 239-2A of the Municipal Act regarding the security of the property of the municipality or local board.

5:17And the second one is Guelph Storm Hockey Club Agreement, section 239-2K of the Municipal Act, a position plan, procedure criteria or instruction to be applied to any negotiations carried on or to be carried on by or on behalf of the municipality or the local board.

5:37And before I look to call a vote on those two items to move into closed, is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof for those two items by any member of council?

5:48Hearing and seeing none, would someone be willing to move to go into closed on that one for me?

5:56Alton Guller, thank you so much. Anything further on that?

6:01No, okay, I'll call the vote.

6:03Is anyone against moving into closed on those two items?

6:07That's nobody, so that's unanimous. Thank you very much.

6:11So for those in the room who are watching online, we are going to just take some time to deal with those two issues in a closed session.

6:19And then we will come back out. I will always give a high level summary.

6:25But we will do the high level summary and do all of that at the two o'clock start meeting for the public portion of our agenda. Okay, so thank you so much.

6:34Okay, I'd like to call the open session meeting to order if I could have my friends online.

1:15:49Just turn their cameras on so we can get a brief hello just to make sure we have the quorum and okay, thank you.

1:15:59And I just, I do want to again just state that we had official regrets from Klassen and from Boussatil. That's right.

1:16:09I think I actually, I think I might have actually heard a week ago go Richardson as well. So just to just to notify that too.

1:16:17So with that, thank you for waiting a few moments and we're very sorry that we are a little bit over time. You can blame the mayor.

1:16:25Not starting at two o'clock. So my apologies.

1:16:28I do want to do the high level summary in regards to why we went in camera. So we did go in camera at one o'clock on two items.

1:16:39They're listed on the open agenda. One was corporate cyber security briefing.

1:16:44And so we did receive information on on that from our staff on that topic.

1:16:51And that's all that was done in regards to that. And then also with the golf, the second one was Guelph Storm hockey club agreement.

1:17:01And we received a lot of information from our staff in regards to that item as well. And we did give direction on that issue to our staff as a takeaway.

1:17:12So there's my high level summary of coming out of closed. So with that, please do rise if you can please as we recognize our national anthem.

1:17:23Thank you everyone. As we continue just a moment of silent reflection. Great. Thank you very much and our territorial acknowledgement.

1:19:08As we gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work here in Guelph, a city built over rich indigenous histories.

1:19:15We have a lot of guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land and the people who live here today and the generations to come.

1:19:25For actions today can move us towards reconciliation. We should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude.

1:19:32This place we call Guelph has served as the traditional lands and a place of refuge for many people's overtime, but more specifically the Aniwanderok and the Honan-Oshoni.

1:19:41The land is held as the treaty lands and territory with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation. Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman track and is part of a long established traditional hunting grounds for the Six Nations of the Grand River.

1:19:56Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis people come from across Turtle Island and call Guelph home today.

1:20:03With that, is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest, any general nature thereof for the items that we have on our committee schedule today?

1:20:11Not hearing anybody, so consider that done.

1:20:15We're going to kick off with our normal force of action, which is a lot of staff recognitions, rightly so.

1:20:23We have two themed areas to give some kudos to today.

1:20:30For the first one, I'm going to turn it over to Chair Caron.

1:20:35Then on the second one, we'll go over to Chair Downer.

1:20:39Thank you Mr. Mayor. This is one of my favorite parts of being Chair of Corporate Services is recognizing the excellence we have in our organization.

1:20:47So today it is my pleasure to recognize the City of Guelph's fourth cohort to go through the City's Leadership Academy, which is a program that fosters corporate value of learning as well as continuous improvement.

1:21:00Being recognized today are 16 employees who participated in this leadership development program, each person dedicating more than 40 hours in 11, over 11 months to improve their skills and knowledge,

1:21:14to benefit the leadership practices and contribute to an innovative service oriented and high performing work culture in the City of Guelph.

1:21:24Today's program participants complete 13 courses and a capstone project that benefits the City's work to deliver responsible and responsive public services to Guelph's growing and diverse community.

1:21:36Participants deliver a presentation to the executive team, that would be daunting,

1:21:42focused on the capstone project and their results and this work is done in addition to their regular jobs and demonstrates both the commitment of participants in continuous learning, development and continuous improvement on behalf of the City.

1:21:57With that said, I'd like to recognize and congratulate the following City employees for their participation, their hard work and their dedication.

1:22:05First we have Ashraf Abu-Aliah, Tom Bojek, Stephanie DeVoe, Chris DeVrant, Anthony Dolcetti, Stacy Dunnigan, Kyle Gibson, Dustin Gronk, Brian Ho-Yen, Crystal Kaminsky, Mallory Lemon, Courtney MacDonald,

1:22:26John-Olt, Erie Mitchell, Tim Spence, Kate Wagler and Heather Yates.

1:22:33So on behalf of Council, on behalf of my colleagues and the Mayor, congratulations on your success and thank you for the work that you do on behalf of the City of Guelph.

1:22:43It's time for a photo op. So for those of you who are here today that participated in the Leadership Academy, why don't we go down to the Guelph backdrop there behind our ET and we'll take a photo op.

1:22:55And congratulations to all of you.

1:24:45Is there any time to add a photo?

1:24:47Okay, the second congratulations go in order and this is a congratulations to the Guelph Museums.

1:24:54I'm receiving the Ontario Museum Association's Honorable Mention in Exhibitions for Unsuffling the Grand.

1:25:01Legacies of Settlement in the Grand River Valley from 1700 to present day at ORMA's Awards of Excellence in 2024.

1:25:10Unsuffling the Grand is an exhibition that explores the failed enterprise of the Grand River Navigation Company from 1832 to 1861 through analyzing the historical and contemporary relationships between indigenous and settler colonial communities within and along the Grand River.

1:25:29The design of the exhibition and the narrative within were shaped by the two-eyed seeing philosophy of Elder Albert Marshall of the Eskisoni First Nation, Una Magagi, Kate Britton, and me.

1:25:45And I had these already before me.

1:25:48Megawagi resulting from the transformative process that fostered a plurality of traditional indigenous and mainstream western perspectives, critical reflection, collaboration, and reciprocity.

1:26:01This was reflected in an innovative experience of an exhibition including a counterclockwise narrative challenging conventional chronological exhibition practices.

1:26:11Exhibition chapters presented through bilateral indigenous and settler colonial narrative perspectives and the room size format that centered the voice of the river and put museum visitors in dialogue with it.

1:26:27A neat experience.

1:26:29This exhibit offered a very accessible picture of a critical story in the history of the Grand River around the relationships between the crown, their agents and the First Nation and the nature of the colonial expansion in the watershed.

1:26:44A map that received the honorable mention of Don Owen, curator of the Gough Museums and Robert Fluelling, visitor experiences assistant and guest curator.

1:26:53And here today are the community advisors Jeremy Shoot and Touro on the Grand Founders, L.A. Joseph and J. Bailey who contributed to this exhibition.

1:27:06So please come forward and we'll do some pictures too.

1:27:09Well, great. Thank you very much.

1:29:14And to our museum friends, you can hang out if you want, but it might be a good time to get your coats on if you want to skit battle.

1:29:24All right. Thank you again and congratulations to everybody.

1:29:29We're going to jump right into our service areas with the first one being our corporate services, which would be chair Caron.

1:29:37There is only the one item it is on consent, but I'll throw it over to chair Caron just to introduce the item.

1:29:47Thank you, Mr. Mayor. We have one item today and it is a matter that's been before us before it is related to the administrative penalty system by laws and policies.

1:29:59So unless there are any questions of staff or debate among council, we'll put that on consent and I'll ask for a mover and a seconder.

1:30:09Mover, Councillor Billings, seconder, Councillor Caton.

1:30:14To go call the vote. Is anyone opposed to these recommendations? I see none. That is carried.

1:30:20Back over to you, Mr. Mayor.

1:30:22Great. Thank you, chair Caron. And now I'm going to go over to the other side of the room here and to chair Goller.

1:30:29For audit, we've got a couple of presentations in front of us. So I'll turn it over to you.

1:30:34Thank you. And that's okay. I think this will work. If it gets superheated, we might try to seats.

1:30:44Well, thank you. First up, we have item 10.1 in the agenda, the internal audit work plan. So maybe I'll turn it off to over to Mr. Jelsik for a presentation on this.

1:30:57Thank you, Councillor Goller. So good afternoon, council. Before we get into the details of the 24 to 27 audit plan and discuss the results of execution of the 2024 plan, I wanted to highlight a few things about the process of setting the plan.

1:31:23As in prior years, the audit plan was developed using a number of input factors. These include feedback from management and council, consideration of emerging trends, and results from an internal audit risk assessment utilizing self assessments completed by all department leaders.

1:31:40I also want to assert that all internal audit activity from setting this plan to executing audits was done independently and objectively with no undue influence from the management team.

1:31:51The 2024 plan listed in attachment three within the report highlights that as of year end, all four of the scheduled audits were completed. In addition, we began audit work on a 2025 schedule project, the use of external consultants audit in quarter four.

1:32:08This audit substantially, this audit is substantially completed, sorry, and an information report will be presented to council in late March. In addition, the volunteer enterprise risk management initiative was advanced.

1:32:20A policy and framework have been finalized and reviewed with the executive team and council will be asked to receive these shortly.

1:32:27As part of the implementation plan, an enterprise risk assessment that includes interviews with both the executive and leadership team, stakeholders was kicked off and is currently underway and will continue here in early 2025.

1:32:39Once completed, an ERM working group will prioritize and assess the identified organizational risks and present the risk register report to the executive team and council in June 2025.

1:32:51The audit plan for 2025 listed in attachment one will focus on the completion of two value for money reviews once again this year.

1:32:58Areas of review selected for this year will be facilities cleaning services across the city and building permit approvals and inspection services within the planning and building services department.

1:33:11These reports will be executed using the value for money framework and operational review of fleet maintenance will also be executed along with these three large reviews work on the ERM implementation will continue.

1:33:23Attachment two in the report highlights potential projects to be completed for 2026 to 2027.

1:33:29As part of our continuous commitment to continuous improvement at the end of each audit we ask clients to complete a survey using the results to identify opportunities to enhance the audit process.

1:33:41The benchmark standard is a score of 85%. A satisfaction survey of 92% was achieved in 2024.

1:33:48Are there any questions?

1:33:50Thank you for that presentation to my council colleagues any questions or comments at this time?

1:33:57Councillor O'Rourke.

1:33:59Thank you chair Goller through you to Mr. Jelacic. I'm very excited about the enterprise wide risk management and the value for money audits as you know.

1:34:08I am curious going forward. What will be the process to identify what areas are subject to a value for money audit? Is it strictly consultation with senior leadership? Is there consultation with council?

1:34:21What does that look like going forward?

1:34:27Chair Goller to Councillor O'Rourke. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as with audit plan setting, we welcome council's input into those.

1:34:35We did use an approach this year where we use some of the information that was generated from the budget process from the previous year to help identify some potential projects along with some discussions with senior management.

1:34:47And we do have, I do have a list of potential projects for the future, but certainly would welcome council's input. And again, as is customary done, you know, I'm always available and you can certainly reach out whenever you feel like there might be a project you want us to consider and look at.

1:35:01Thank you. And through Chair Goller, a comment if I can, I'm really excited about the enterprise wide risk management about council seeing that risk registry and it becoming an input into our budget deliberations, right?

1:35:16Because when we're guided by community plan, by the strap plan, all these other things we need to know what else might be lurking that we're not aware of.

1:35:25And we need to be anticipating those risks so that we can be proper stewards of the corporation city of Guelph for the benefit of the city and the whole community. So I'm really excited to see that's moving forward. Thanks.

1:35:41Thank you, Councillor O'Rourke. Any other questions or comments from the council colleagues?

1:35:47Thank you, Councillor Morer.

1:35:48Thank you, and through you, Chair.

1:35:50Just a quick question of clarity, I guess, in regards to the audit that you are looking to do for like inspections, building departments, inspections and such.

1:36:01It will be a little bit greater or more broad than just like numbers, right? Like, I'm hoping, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm hoping it's not like X amount we're called in for and we did, we ended up doing a Y.

1:36:15and this is the time frame of what we were wanting to do them and we accomplished 95% of whatever in adherence.

1:36:24Like there's also sort of the process part as well and the interaction part and the relational part between city staff and people that are getting their businesses inspected and such.

1:36:39Is that going to be part of some of the questioning some of the deeper dive that you're going to look into and try to capture as part of the report back on this audit?

1:36:50Absolutely. As I mentioned, this is going to be a value for money review. So we're going to utilize the framework that we have that captures a lot more than what we do in our typical audit.

1:36:59So we'll be looking at business process. What are the outcomes? What are the successes for outcome?

1:37:03We will make sure we look at all those steps as well as continuing with our sort of audit themed approach of a risk based assessment.

1:37:11So we will identify the various risks that are associated with that process and that unit, including the customer service risk and we'll incorporate that into our scope and objectives of the audit.

1:37:22Great. Thank you.

1:37:24Chair, I think I think deputy CAO wants to go ahead.

1:37:27Sorry, through the chair to Mr. Mayor. So just on your comments, we are already looking at some of those customer service concerns that you might have.

1:37:38Some of the things that we are hearing, we're very interested in truthing out. If there is anything that we would like that this audit points to improving, we're interested in doing that too.

1:37:48So we're welcoming in this audit to see what we might be able to improve on.

1:37:52Great. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you, chair.

1:37:56Thank you to my council colleagues, councillor old, go ahead please. And then.

1:38:02Thank you chair Goller with thanks to you and in particular to Mr. Jelassik and the audit staff. I'm happy to move the motions.

1:38:12It was great working with them and looking forward to years.

1:38:16Forward.

1:38:17Okay, so that's moved by councillor old segment by Mayor Guthrie and counselor to did you also have comments go ahead.

1:38:28Yeah, thank you, Mr. chair.

1:38:30I just wanted to get a better sense of how the consideration requests from management and council in particular would be played out.

1:38:40Is it just a matter of reaching out to you or to the ET or is there some kind of process because I'm just trying to understand what the organizational risk register would entail and if that's connected in any way process wise.

1:38:59Just to check it would that be a question for our CEO or for Mr. Joseph and Mr. Jelassik.

1:39:06Okay, let's go ahead.

1:39:10Thank you through chair caller to councillor to absolutely hasn't the past emailing myself directly is the preferred probably the best way to do it there is no real protocol or process for that just directly emailing me and we can certainly have a chat about any audit matters you'd like to.

1:39:30Thank you.

1:39:31I'm going to loop in the chairs of the audit as well as for color and councillor Richardson that.

1:39:36That's, that's good. Thank you.

1:39:39Thank you, councillor to any further questions.

1:39:43See, no, no, I just have one for for you, Mr. Jelassik.

1:39:48I think there are many community members that will be following these audits wanting to to see the outcomes.

1:39:54Could you go over the reporting process and how this will be reported at what time people can expect to see the results of these audits.

1:40:05Absolutely, chair caller.

1:40:07So the odds will be doing our typical article on a process where we go through a planning phase of field work place and then at the end of it sorry phase and then the end of it we do a report for the value for money audits those will be staff reports that will come to all of council.

1:40:20And right now the estimated dates for those is we will have the value for money cleaning services audit reported to council I believe it's in July.

1:40:29And then the other two, the fleet maintenance audit will just be our regular audit, which traditional over the last few years has been reported to council through an information report.

1:40:38That will be towards the end of the year and the building services inspection processes audit, given the nature of the audit and we expect that to be a very large, larger audit and larger scope.

1:40:50That one will most likely be reported in Q1 of next year to give us some time to execute the audit later on this year.

1:40:56Okay, perfect. And did you mentioned the enterprise risk management to the time I forgot one.

1:41:01Sorry, I did not and that one the risk register will be reported to council at June staff council the whole meeting.

1:41:10In June.

1:41:12Perfect. Thank you very much. Thank you. So this item I appreciate it. It has been moved and seconded. See no questions. I'll call the vote anyone against the motion to receive the internal audit work plan for 2025 to 20.

1:41:2527.

1:41:28Seeing none. It is approved unanimously. Thank you very much. And now moving on to to the next one. I didn't 10.2 the enterprise risk management.

1:41:38I apologize for having asked about this in advance, but please go ahead with any presentation for this.

1:41:47Yeah, thank you, Councillor Collar. So yeah, I want to just wanted to do a brief presentation on this to give council an overview.

1:41:54And I just.

1:41:57All right, thank you. So in terms of.

1:42:02Our prize risk management, I think.

1:42:05Sorry.

1:42:07Reno. Sorry about that. Don't seem to be able to know how to function this thing.

1:42:20Thank you. All right. Sorry for that.

1:42:30So, you are a tool that is used to promote risk informed decision making and supports decisions to achieve both strategic and operational objectives.

1:42:38When making decisions, there are many things to consider. One of them is risk.

1:42:43The intent of this presentation is to highlight some elements of the policy guidelines and risk assessment implementation process.

1:42:50And that will be that will culminate in the development of an enterprise level strategic risk register to be used by the organization.

1:42:59So how does the RM help an organization achieve its goals and objectives?

1:43:03Firstly, the policy sets the overall intent and expectations for risk management within the city, including the overall guiding principles of the RM.

1:43:11It also underpins the risk management process within the RM framework.

1:43:15As with any framework, it is a supporting structure meant to help its users.

1:43:19The framework is used to mitigate risk and maximize the positive effects of strategic opportunities.

1:43:24Some key elements to highlight to you of our year on policy and framework.

1:43:32Firstly, it is based on the ISO 31,000 standards.

1:43:36The framework provides the structure that supports the policy and helps everyone understand how to meet its objectives.

1:43:42Sorry, and its expectations and guidelines for the risk assessment process provide the how to details.

1:43:48In meeting the policies objectives.

1:43:50Let's look at some roles and responsibilities and expectations as outlined in the year and policy.

1:43:58Since this is an enterprise level tool, the overall accountability lies within the CAO's office.

1:44:03Senior leadership's role is to set the tone of expectation, including review, including regular review of risk reporting.

1:44:10For the first few years of implementation, the IA and SIS teams will get the ball rolling.

1:44:16Risk ownership and coordination will be the responsibilities of all of us.

1:44:20Initially, this will include helping to review department risk assessments to help identifying the common themes that come with this.

1:44:27These themes will be summarized and become the organizational risk register.

1:44:38Many of you have likely heard of the concept of the three lines of defense.

1:44:41A quick recap of how the RM and the lines of defense are meant to function.

1:44:45The first line lies with the frontline business and process owners with management expected to maintain effective controls to manage risks on a day to day basis.

1:44:58The second line is oversight through risk management and compliance functions used to monitor and guide the front lines.

1:45:04The third line, which includes internal audit as well as external auditors, is an independent group with no day to day duties and risk mitigation,

1:45:16providing assurance to senior management and council on the effectiveness of risk management practices.

1:45:21Moving to the RM framework, here are some highlights.

1:45:28Firstly, the framework describes a general approach that will be used across the organization to help manage risks.

1:45:33The key risk assessment process is used, has four key steps.

1:45:37Identify the risk using a formal risk assessment process exercise.

1:45:41Analyze the risk noted using a five point likelihood and impact scale.

1:45:45During this step, consideration should also be given to the velocity of the identified risk and its impact on the risk keep map.

1:45:51Once risks have been identified and their impacts determined, the evaluation to prioritize the risks is accomplished with the use of a risk keep map.

1:46:04Finally, for all higher risks identified risk owners develop treatment plans that aim to put practices in place to reduce risk levels in a cost effective manner.

1:46:14Higher risk items are then, sorry, higher risk items get more attention, including reporting to the executive team and council.

1:46:25So let's move to the highlights of the implementation plan.

1:46:30Where do we want to be in the near future?

1:46:33The goal is to be an integrated state of maturity from an ERM perspective within three to four years.

1:46:38This will be done in a stepped approach with the intent of building on existing business planning activities we are all involved in.

1:46:45This includes formal ERM framework and supporting policy and guidelines with consistent tools for identifying, assessing and monitoring risks at the enterprise, divisional and project levels.

1:46:56Defined risk appetite and tolerance that is agreed upon by both management and council.

1:47:01Coordinated and integrated approach to risk management enabled by accountable risk coordinators embedded in operational areas and supported by the office of the CAO.

1:47:09And regular reporting and monitoring on higher priority risks at the enterprise and divisional levels supported by a core set of KPIs that are aligned with risks identified and are used to detect changes in risk levels and trends.

1:47:22So how are we going to get to the integrated state in the next three to four years?

1:47:34Implementation of the ERM framework has been identified as a strategic initiative for the organization.

1:47:40The goal for 2025 is to develop an enterprise level risk register for senior management and council consideration.

1:47:46And this will be presented to council in quarter two.

1:47:49The ERM policy framework and guidelines will be circulated throughout the city for use.

1:47:54We will finalize the enterprise strategic risk assessment exercise, which we're currently in the process of doing, and we'll develop ERM training and communication items.

1:48:03And lastly, I'm sorry, identify and integrate with existing governance work being done.

1:48:07For example, work that's being done on the strategic plan, the KPI updates that we do.

1:48:12We will then initiate department business unit risk assessments and also regular reporting to executive team, leadership team and council.

1:48:20As, sorry, as mentioned, the deliverable for 2025 is development of an enterprise risk registry.

1:48:31The next steps is to focus on operational risk risk management.

1:48:35The ERM strategic initiative KPI strives for implementing ERM at a departmental level with targets of 25% uptake in 2025, 50% in 2026 and 75% in 2027.

1:48:47That concludes the presentation. Are there any questions?

1:48:51Thank you very much for the presentation. I do have mayor Guthrie with a question and then I'll ask third over to councillor Gibson.

1:48:59Go ahead, your worship.

1:49:01Sure. Thanks, chair. Do you want me just to, I'm happy to move, move it as well before I ask the question if you want to get it on the floor.

1:49:07Let's do it and seconded by councillor O'Rourke.

1:49:09Okay, perfect.

1:49:11I've got two quick questions. One is probably directly to you. One might be to one might be to the deputy CAO team CAO team.

1:49:18So to you is why the 25% adherence and then 50 and then, you know, like, like I'm asking very sincerely, like if it's a, if you have a great answer, which I'm sure you do, tell me, tell us, but I, there's, there's another part of me that sees the legitimacy and the reasoning why we need this, this

1:49:42this management's this risk management system in place. And to me, it kind of feels like if council, you know, agrees to moving forward with it, like it should just be done.

1:49:51Like there should be just, it should just be adhered to. So why the ability to allow the departments to do this kind of slow ramp up over a three year period.

1:50:03I can understand that better. I appreciate it.

1:50:05Yeah, through through chair Gullo to the mayor.

1:50:07Quite honestly, mayor, it's about resourcing. So from an internal artists perspective perspective, we are a team of two. So we don't have enough manpower to execute this.

1:50:16And also we have to sort of identify where this is going to sit in the organization.

1:50:22We've had some preliminary discussions with with with my colleagues. And so it'll, it'll be a matter of time as we sort of implement this into the work plans of our, of our colleagues into the into the city.

1:50:34And quite honestly, I mean, it is, it is a big undertaking. I mean, it's taking us a bit of time to get to this phase.

1:50:40You know, we've we've been kind of working on this since 2018 or so and it's taken a number of years to get to here. So it will take a bit of time to sort of get down to that operational level and educate people on the risk assessment process.

1:50:52Help us to identify where the risk trends are in those particular areas. And then also to develop those strategies where we need to reduce those risks.

1:50:58So it's simply a question of just not having enough time and resources to do it right away out of the gate.

1:51:04Okay, so as a takeaway on that topic, if during budget time as reports come back, could you identify for counsel? If you had more time or if you had more resources, you could initiate the the alignment and any adherence to the to the risk management sooner.

1:51:24Like, I don't know what that answer would be today, but can you identify that for us in the future? If there's the ability to fast track that through the chair to the mayor, absolutely, we can do that.

1:51:33Okay, so I'd appreciate that. Thank you. And then my last one, as I said, it might be through to you, Tara, to the CEO or WCA group. But I like I just find the importance of this.

1:51:45Like really key to sort of moving forward through a lens, almost, because your report talks about the enterprise risk management being almost embedded in each department of the city. So as counsel gets a report, would we maybe start seeing the risk management being identified on each report of how it aligns to each report.

1:52:08And I'm viewing it in a similar way that we have how on every single one of our reports, how it shows how it aligns to the strategic plan.

1:52:16It would, is this something that maybe could be added where necessary that it's embedded in each report. So this report aligns with the strategic plan in these ways.

1:52:26Oh, and it also aligns as a as an initial filter on almost every report to our enterprise risk management as well in this way. That way it's like really kind of this embedded your presentation in the report said tone from the top that we see that this is being used in everything we start to do on a on a regular basis moving forward.

1:52:47Have you have you thought of doing it in the way that I'm mentioning it.

1:52:52Um, so through the chair to the mayor.

1:52:57Sorry.

1:52:59At this point we have not considered. Sorry.

1:53:07At this point we haven't considered changing the templates. I'll definitely will take that away for consideration. I just want to say that I think, you know, the process that we're talking here what I'm excited about is more of the bringing the, the, the enterprise.

1:53:23The enterprise level risk conversation to council in a closed way where we can have like real conversation and have those then linked to budget and other decisions. And so I think you'll like that'll be phase. That'll be the thing that you see next.

1:53:38Um, and, and I just don't I don't want to leave any, um, any kind of concern that that we don't already manage risk. I would say that that we do really well across the like every department in the city. I would say has a very.

1:53:53Um, you know, in depth understanding of the risks and what what we're doing here is we're trying to roll it up so that we can have corporate conversations about it and use that data a little bit better.

1:54:04So, um, so I just, I just to add to the context there, I, we are doing risk management at the department level and I think that, um, you know, the, the budget and every report that you see has, has kind of that risk management lens baked in, but we'll, we'll take away the consideration on how we can maybe make that pop a little bit more.

1:54:24Okay. Thank you. And thank you, chair. Um, yeah, I think more front facing in your face a little bit identified through a template or a natural way of having it in the reports.

1:54:36Um, in a repetitive way showing that it's meeting the criteria of the, of the risk management is something that would be interesting for you to consider. Thank you very much. Thank you chair. That's it for me.

1:54:47Thank you, your worship. I have counselor Gibson and then counselor work.

1:54:52Chair Goller. So, I like this conversation. Thanks very much. Just bringing it forward. Every corporation has the risk.

1:54:59Um, I, I contribute to the risk registry at my company quarterly on on some files. I guess my question in Miss Baker, you may have just touched on a little bit is just the open like the.

1:55:11Unfortunately, the transparency of this file quite a few times privilege and confidential information has to be registered through the risk registry and that is shared with our team, my company privately.

1:55:24What can the public expect from this process? I don't want to set expectations to pie, but I would assume everything from environmental compliance to building code to labor to all those things that may appear on our risk registry.

1:55:38We're probably not always be public facing as well and maybe a comment from staff. Again, just trying to set expectations of what this is going to look like.

1:55:46Or whether or not be a bit of a corporate.

1:55:49Yeah, thank you through the chair counselor Gowler to counselor Gibson. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, a lot of the elements we're going to identify are going to be confidential in nature and not for public consumption.

1:56:03But I mean, there is always an avenue to present what we can to to the public through the process via an open.

1:56:11I'll report or an open information session. Absolutely.

1:56:16Do you want to add to that?

1:56:22No, I guess I would just say, I, you know, we will do our best to maybe have to report out at an open way, maybe through an annual work plan or through some kind of annual report.

1:56:38I'd say the other thing is that with our external audit, we do have the ability and we look, they look at risk as well through the audit lens.

1:56:46And so we can take that away and how we best communicate to the public what what the risk levers are maybe at a really high level.

1:56:54But but for me, I think it's really important for the you as a council to be able to have a close conversation about the details of those risks and and have those open conversations like real.

1:57:08Conversations about that that are confidential in nature. So, well, again, we'll take that away and see, see how we can we optimize our transparency as much as we can, but understanding that these will be sensitive conversations.

1:57:24Thank you. I agree. Just a brief comment from me again, nothing salacious here. These are these are conversations that all corporations have. So I appreciate the openness of staff bring forward to this point.

1:57:36And I'll support the recommendations and I look forward to look forward to our conversations.

1:57:44Thank you, Councillor Gibson over to Councillor O'Rourke.

1:57:47Thank you, Chair Goller. Can I make a comment and ask my question just because it follows the conversation.

1:57:55So through you to staff, I feel differently about changing the reporting template to council, because having worked for a crown corporation provincial crown and been on the board of a different provincial crown.

1:58:08The value of the risk registry is to see what the what all the risks are, what their probability is what the severity would be. And then you get to see the whole thing and judge what are the highest priority risks because there's lots of risks.

1:58:26It's the highest priority risk that we need to address. So my concern with adding it to staff reports to come to council regularly is that you're only seeing that one bite of the elephant without being able to judge it against other things happening in the organization.

1:58:42So just sort of responding to the conversation, not a real reflection, but the value I have seen in both contributing to and receiving those risk registries was that broad view.

1:58:56There might be a very, very high risk with a low probability. But if you were just getting that report at council, you would say, oh my gosh, it's a high risk and why aren't they doing anything?

1:59:06But it's the mature conversation likely in private to sort that out and to inform the budget decisions. So so that's my take on on the individual reporting.

1:59:19And then through you, chair Goller to Mr. Jelacic, again on slide 14 where it says you're going to start with 25% 50 are going to start with the highest priority areas. Do you determine which departments are on board at first?

1:59:34Through councillor or through the chair Goller to councillor or work.

1:59:38To be honest, I really got to that stage yet to determine where that or how that 25% would be. I think there will be some some merit to starting with areas where there's a higher.

1:59:52Higher likelihood of risk and where my risk plans and mitigation strategies need to be developed. That would that would make a lot of sense.

2:00:03Thank you.

2:00:06Thank you for those questions. Councillor or any other questions or comments from my council colleagues.

2:00:12Seeing none, I wanted to take a moment to thank you, Mr. Joseph and thank you, Mr. Can for the work that you do for the city. It's very important work and we look forward to seeing you here as you're reporting these items.

2:00:24I will call the vote all anyone against the report.

2:00:30Seeing none, we have received the enterprise risk management policy and framework overview.

2:00:39And I believe that it's it for me, your worship.

2:00:41Great. Thank you, chair.

2:00:44We have one more item on our agenda and this is just an item for discussion with a presentation. Now a chair downer wanted to bring this forward to all of council. It's something that my myself and chair downer and chair O'Rourke and vice chair.

2:01:03Boosatil might be a little bit more aware of because of our position on the joint social services land committee and and yet it.

2:01:15It really is some information that needs to be shared here, which is why I'll turn it over to chair down or to take it over from here. Go ahead.

2:01:22Yeah, thank you.

2:01:23Thank you, biography. It took the words right out of my mouth.

2:01:27So back in November, we had this at the joint social services and land evidence committee.

2:01:33Our paramedics department came forward with an update on the optimal resource deployment of paramedic services study.

2:01:40And it was well received by the county and the city. So it's looking forward and what our needs will be and it's quite comprehensive.

2:01:49It's an excellent document to sort of guide us forward. And you know, it's also important for the county.

2:01:56They have a number of relocations that they will need to be doing in order to create capacity for moving forward.

2:02:04So I'll leave it up to the experts to give you more details on that.

2:02:10But we thought it was important. The council members on the committee to bring this forward to council, not just on an information item, but also as a presentation to council to ensure you got that information, but also in a more public realm that the public could also go be aware.

2:02:28So over to you.

2:02:32Thank you.

2:02:39And good afternoon and thank you for the.

2:02:43The opportunity to speak to you today about our recent report as mentioned presented to the joint social services and land and this committee in November.

2:02:52And I have to figure out how to use this green button.

2:02:59You may be aware that in 2016, the city of Guelph commissioned operational research in health or H to create a computer model of our Guelph Wellington paramedic service and to use the model to run simulations to determine what resources would be required for the period of 2016 to 2026.

2:03:19That resulting report helped us to plan for our last last eight years with respect to expected growth and demand and needed resources to meet that demand.

2:03:29In the in the last several months we worked with or H to update that model and run simulations to inform us on the needs of the coming 10 year period.

2:03:41We received the final report on that work in November and shared it with the JSS LAC then we're happy to share it with you today.

2:03:50Or H uses a sophisticated computer modeling technique that simulates demand based on population and age ranges of residents along with street design and travel speeds.

2:04:01Once the models created they then validated by comparing the results that the computer achieves compared to our actual results that we were able to achieve at our service.

2:04:10And then once validated the model can be used to simulate future years incorporating projected population growth using census and Watson and Associates data population age range changes and the trend seen in paramedic and internationally towards an increase in calls and per capita just in general.

2:04:31The predictions created by or H in the 2016 report were remarkably accurate even considering the global pandemic which obviously couldn't have been predicted.

2:04:42Other Ontario services have that have used the services of or H have reported similar accurate results or H also uses information from other paramedic services in Ontario to compare our Gwelfolington performance in some key metrics and no significant deficiencies were found in that report.

2:05:00Overall the model predicted that we will see an average increase in call volume of 4.3% annually for a total of 52% over the next 10 years.

2:05:13Or H was able to then predict the increase in resources that are going to be required to meet that demand.

2:05:22By running the various scenarios and simulations the computer model can help find other efficiencies in service delivery that assist in meeting our response time targets separate from adding staffing.

2:05:33The primary means of increasing that efficiency is to move paramedic stations to areas central to the to the call volumes.

2:05:40The areas have been identified in heat maps in the report that you can see and more on that from my friend Antion a few minutes.

2:05:50You may recall in a report presented to a joint meeting of City of Gwelfolington County of Wellington Councils in June of 2023 that paramedic stations have been an ongoing issue both in location and adequacy for our staffing needs.

2:06:04Replacing paramedic stations was part of a business plan first presented to council in 2017.

2:06:10A facility needs assessment completed in 2022 confirmed that our existing paramedic stations are not appropriate not meeting the needs of staff in addition to not being in the most efficient locations.

2:06:22While this current report did not comment on the amenities of the existing paramedic facilities it did confirm that significant improvements in efficiencies can be gained by relocating some of these stations.

2:06:36It's also a discussion on equity of paramedic services. The data analysis that accompanies the update of this computer model showed that response times in the City of Gwelfolington have improved since the 2016 report and performance in the county has deteriorated somewhat.

2:06:54In order to address the question of response time equity across our area something that the JSS LAC committee and its pre-runner of the social services committee have asked me about in the past.

2:07:06ORH has recommended a response time target for each of the lower tier municipalities in Wellington County based on their total weighted geometric mean which is a measure of their population density.

2:07:18The recommended targets in each area represents a small improvement over our current performance in that area. Maintaining our response time performance and meeting the targets recommended by ORH will require a significant investment in additional paramedics.

2:07:34ORH identified that 40 full-time paramedics will need to be added in the coming 10 years.

2:07:40And being honest adding that many staff and addressing this many additional calls is a daunting concept for myself and for the team.

2:07:49That said the report also includes a do nothing scenario showing that the negative impact of basically doing nothing of no resources or station movements occurring in the coming 10 years.

2:08:03As you will have seen under those conditions our response time performance drops significantly across the whole service area.

2:08:13As I mentioned relocating stations is one means of improving efficiency and meeting response time targets or at least assisting us to do that.

2:08:20I'm now going to ask our GM of facilities and energy management, Anty Vilko to summarize that part of the report for you.

2:08:34Thank you Chief Dewer. So a little bit about the paramedics stations themselves. So the ORH report has concluded that many of the paramedic stations are relatively well located.

2:08:47There are some that are located outside of the optimal areas according to the heat maps.

2:08:52As noted in the paramedics facility needs assessment from 2023, the stations are not appropriately sized or purpose built.

2:09:00There are capacity constraints that prevent adding more resources to meet the forecasted capacity to maintain levels of service.

2:09:08The two challenges, primary challenges with the paramedic stations are first finding available land in that optimal location in accordance with the heat maps.

2:09:19And the second being financial capacity for both the land and the construction costs that ultimately dictates the pace.

2:09:29This next slide presents the sequence as presented in the ORH report for the recommended trajectory.

2:09:37You can see that the speed vell station was identified as first in priority sequence.

2:09:45And you can see the list from years 2028 to 2034, the various county stations from year in Guelph-Armosa, Minto, Wellington North,

2:09:57Centre Wellington, Buslynch, Wellington North, and Mapleton as well as Guelph-Gordon Street to wrap up that list.

2:10:06This next slide presents a proposed paramedic station layout and it's considered an optimal design, a standardized design for a two ambulance base station.

2:10:21That would be typical for a county paramedic station.

2:10:25It features two garage bays for the ambulances that have a drive-through capability.

2:10:33It has a lounge and kitchenette area, some locker room. It includes two washrooms and that includes one shower.

2:10:40There's secure storage for things like biohazards, oxygen storage, as well as supplies.

2:10:47There's office space and wellness space and the approximate size is 3400 square feet.

2:10:55So that's the proposed station layout.

2:10:58For budgeting purposes, the cost estimates here identify a couple features here.

2:11:07So the first being that paramedic stations, according to the Ontario Building Code, requires them to be designed to a post-disaster building standard.

2:11:15The costs here do not include the cost for land or requiring land. That would be additional.

2:11:22The budget cost used here for budgeting purposes has been $1,390 per square foot.

2:11:30And so doing the math for a station layout of 3400 square feet at that unit rate station cost without the land is estimated at 4.7 million.

2:11:48So as mentioned, we brought this work to the Joint Social Services and Land Ambulance Committee in November of last year.

2:11:55And the report had just been received from ORH and we had not had an opportunity to discuss next steps.

2:12:03So to talk about next steps here, there's two potential paths forward.

2:12:08The first one, which would be the typical path for us to follow as we consider capital needs for a city service,

2:12:15is with the city building and owning the new stations.

2:12:18The path would require the city and county to share the capital costs for the build

2:12:23and would require prioritization of the capital budget to add in these projects in alignment with the ORH recommendations.

2:12:29But this model, the city and county, would recover a portion of the capital costs over time from the Ministry of Health through amortization payments.

2:12:38And then the second one would be where the county, and that's something that the county has begun to consider through their budget process,

2:12:45would be with the county building the new stations and leasing them back to the city.

2:12:49So in this scenario, the city, the county would budget for and incur the upfront capital costs and the city would lease the stations from the county.

2:13:00The lease cost would be an operational expense that would be shared by the city and county in year one

2:13:07of the costs being added to the budget.

2:13:09And in years two and later, the Ministry of Health would fund 50% of the costs through the operating transfer.

2:13:15So there are operational and financial details to assess and consider with respect to both of these models.

2:13:21And it's a possible that a third option, which could be a hybrid of these two paths,

2:13:26outline could also be considered.

2:13:29The next steps will be for the city and county staff to work together in the coming months to explore these options

2:13:35and bring back a recommendation to council for approval through the Joint Social Services and Land Ambulance Committee

2:13:42ahead of the 2026 budget update.

2:13:46With that, I could answer any questions you may have.

2:13:56Okay, we'll go to questions.

2:13:58Councillor Corrone.

2:14:01Thank you.

2:14:02I know it's not an apples to apples comparison and there's no construction, the residential construction is very different,

2:14:09but a quick AI search says that residential construction is between 370 square feet and 410 $420 per square foot.

2:14:17This is almost $1400 per square foot.

2:14:20What does post disaster building standards contain that makes it four times the cost of the average construction of a new home?

2:14:31So through the Mayor to Councillor Caron,

2:14:36the figures that you represented there are quite a bit lower than what we've seen.

2:14:41So if I think about some of our recent capital projects, we're seeing $8 to $900 a square foot or construction of some of our facilities that we are undergoing construction right now.

2:14:55The post disaster element adds a lot of additional expense to the construction.

2:15:02So there's seismic, it's basically to withstand any earthquake or natural disaster effects.

2:15:08And so basically it's a building that gets significantly reinforced from both the foundational and structural perspective, but it also includes seismic restraint for all the equipment.

2:15:24And then there's backup generation as well. So there's a lot of additional components to that would be that would be far above and beyond residential construction as well as any of our regular facility type construction work.

2:15:38Okay, just seemed excessive to me and I obviously the big capital projects we have going on right now like the library in the south and rec center are massive projects that require an entirely different building envelope.

2:15:50But if we're talking a 3400 square foot, I'm assuming one story building.

2:15:55It's it's a it's a different project so I was really surprised by the by the differential and numbers considering we're not in an earthquake zone.

2:16:04But thanks for helping me understand the comparison. The other thing is on the last slide with respect to ownership.

2:16:11I know that our relationship with the county on on social services. We don't own any of the buildings is that correct can someone confirm that the county on social services owns all the buildings because they are responsible for social services.

2:16:27We are not the owners.

2:16:30We are responsible for land ambulance and we own all the current stations in all the current outside the city of Guelph.

2:16:39And we own all the buildings and towns. Correct. So sorry, back and forth through the chair. So Shannon and I are kind of back and forth. So on the social services side, I might defer to Shannon just on the land ambulance side.

2:16:49I think it's really important to clarify that we have two very distinct relationships with the county on land ambulance. We are the provider of the service and they fund their portion of that which is 20% of the total cost of the operations of land ambulance.

2:17:03And the county is an existing legislative relationship we have with the county on paramedic services and conversely they are the service provider for social services and we pay our share of the costs in terms of the actual capital for stations.

2:17:18We have a couple of different stations that have been adopted to have a relationship with the county. So we have various operating models for our stations within the city. We own the station at Cresk.

2:17:32We lease the station at 34 Gordon Street and on Elmira Road. We lease the Rockwood station from the township of Guelph Aramosa, but we lease the Drayton station from the county of Wellington and we lease other stations in other relationships.

2:17:43We have different lease arrangements depending on whether the county owns the building, the lower tier municipality owns the building as in the case of Rockwood, we own the building or third party developer owns the building.

2:17:54That relationship is very distinct and unique and we are not obligated to work with the county on the station ownership. There has been some discussion about is there benefit to the county owning our paramedic stations and leasing them back to us.

2:18:09But that is a very distinct relationship from their legislative responsibility to pay their 20% portion of the operating costs for paramedic services. So that was kind of a long-winded answer about paramedics.

2:18:21On the social services side I will defer to Ms. O'Dwyer to help with that one.

2:18:25Sure. Through the mayor, that is correct that the county owns the buildings or has the relationships directly with non-profit and co-op providers that own some of the buildings as well.

2:18:38And just to follow up to that is that is because that is required through legislation or we have opted. So for example, I don't think this needs to go into close because the transactions happen.

2:18:51But Delhi, we transferred ownership to the county.

2:18:57Is that because in social services the agreements and the provincial regulations are different than land emulance?

2:19:09Thanks. Through the mayor, I think some of that is a little bit outside of the scope of my knowledge for the details on the legislative relationship.

2:19:16But I believe that when the county became the social services provider, when it was devolved from the province a number of years ago, those buildings were transferred mostly to the county.

2:19:27Like they were transferred to the county ownership.

2:19:30So with respect to Delhi, I can't speak to the details on that.

2:19:35No worries because it's actually out of the scope of this report here today. So I can do a follow up question because today we're just focusing on land ambulance. But thanks.

2:19:43I have a question from Councillor Alton as well and Councillor Billings.

2:19:49Thank you very much, Chair Downer.

2:19:51I'm going to be dealing with gross numbers in probably two ways.

2:19:57We are looking at over the next 10 years, approximately 40 paramedics that are recommended to be hired.

2:20:03And I'm just doing a quick calculation reckoning that that's probably about $500,000 increase per year for the hiring of those paramedics.

2:20:15And I'm looking also at the estimates that I saw in the slideshow of approximately $47 million to actually construct newer stations in 20, $25.

2:20:30That strikes me as what we are looking at is a significant annual increase in our operating budget.

2:20:37And I'm wondering too, I'll add, I just put it all together in one question. Will this affect our obligations for social services and housing to the county as well, whether we release or we build those particular structures that that's an awful lot of money about $50 million over 10 years if I calculate correctly.

2:20:56Is that correct?

2:20:57Through the mayor to Councillor Alton, so I'll start, but so roughly speaking, the number you quoted based on the high level estimates, I think would be accurate for the capital cost.

2:21:14The city would be responsible for paying about 60% of that and the county would pay about 40% of that based on the cost sharing agreement if the city were to build those facilities.

2:21:25And then the ministry would contribute to that over time through amortization payments, they would contribute to 50% of the amortization on those facilities over time.

2:21:38So that, that's part of it. Can you repeat the operating budget?

2:21:44Oh, sorry, it looked like if we're looking at hiring 40 paramedics over the next 10 years, I'm just doing a quick estimate that we would be looking probably at about a half million dollars increase on the operating budget for paramedics per year.

2:22:00I could clearly be wrong on that because I'm just dealing with quick calculations, but am I anywhere in the ballpark?

2:22:09So I would just say whatever the increase in the cost is each year.

2:22:15So the next year that they're added the municipalities are responsible fully for paying the amount. So there's 60% roughly or 63% would be the city's cost and 37% the county's cost, depending on the call volumes.

2:22:30And then in year two, the ministry of health would pay 50% of that cost and the city and county would share the remaining 50%.

2:22:46You're muted, muted councillor.

2:22:48Thank you. I appreciate the answer to that depreciating costs over years. The only reason that I am asking that is because I think it's very important that we recognize that this is an increasing impact on our budget annually.

2:23:05Unless you would correct me and say that no, I am wrong.

2:23:12Through the chair to councillor Allt, I think we're all nodding in agreement in here that it is absolutely going to be an increasing cost. We know that in order to meet our response times, we need to increase the level of service that we're providing from paramedic services and our ORH

2:23:26modeling has has demonstrated that. So that's on the operating side on the station side, which is really what this report is about. I think one of the reasons why we wanted it in front of you today, obviously, councillor downer pulled it was because there is a budget impact.

2:23:40The county is considering what their role may or may not be in the provision of stations. It is our responsibility as the service provider to provide the stations regardless of where they're located.

2:23:52And we just wanted you to be aware of the conversations that we are having with the county as to whether or not it makes sense for them to build the stations.

2:24:01But regardless, the responsibility to provide those stations regardless of who owns them and builds them sits with us as the service provider. And so we just wanted to make sure you had that the fullness of all of that information.

2:24:14Thank you very much for that. Just last comment, I would remind people that these, I believe are likely 2025 dollars that we're dealing with. And as we are aware, this will likely be inflationary.

2:24:27Okay, thank you. Councillor Billings.

2:24:34Chair, I just wanted to ask about the two paths. And so have we done the high level of financial analysis as to which one financially we'd be best for the city?

2:24:49Through the mayor to councillor Billings. No, we haven't that would that is the work that is the next steps over the next few months for us to work with our county colleagues to define those costs and those benefits and and ideally come back with a recommendation.

2:25:08Okay. So, when you come back with the recommendation, then can we have it clearly outlined, like there's 20%, 40%, they pay for 50% this 60% like it's really kind of confusing.

2:25:22I was just wondering if it could just be clearly outlined for us. And I wanted to go back to, I think it was calling us come at the 20%. Was that on the operating side with respect to the county pays 20%.

2:25:38So through the chair, I'll speak to what I spoke to on the operating side and then on the capital I may need help from his order on the operating side. And it is unique and it is we totally recognize that this can be this is sort of hard to track but on the operating

2:25:55side for paramedics the Ministry of Health pays 50%. The city pays 30% and the county pays 20%. That is legislative that is that and the split between the city and the county is based on call volume.

2:26:11The ministry portion is always 50%. The only slight caveat to that is that the ministry portion is always delayed by a year. And so sometimes when we talk at budget, there is that delay on when the ministry funding comes through when we're adding new resources, but very, very simplistically, 50, 30, 20 is the operating split between the province, the city and the county.

2:26:35Then it gets complicated. Yep. Okay. Okay. Cause I want to understand this. Okay. So even if the in the future, if the call volume goes up in the county, compared to the city, the county still only pays the 20% then because it's the 50 province 30 city 20 County.

2:26:54Through the chair. No. So the 50% is mandated and that is unchanging the 30, 20 would shift if the call volume shifted significantly enough to impact that ratio.

2:27:06Okay. And I'm good with the capital. So, because that's going to come back in the report. I just wanted to make sure that when it comes back as clear.

2:27:13Cause it's kind of confusing. Thanks, Colleen.

2:27:17Thank you. Councillor work.

2:27:20Thank you chair downer. So I had similar questions about the province they've been answered. So through you chair downer, I'm just curious chief doer. I grew up in the 70s watching emergency.

2:27:34Thinking they sat in the ambulance all day just going from call to call. And I'm wondering, we heard some of the stories. I know I'm you'd all now know when I was born.

2:27:46At the joint social services and land ambulance committee. We've heard some reasoning. Why, why it we need a station.

2:27:54A number of stations. Why we need certain amenities.

2:27:56certain amenities. We heard some good storytelling from the Gulf Police

2:28:00Department at the budget so I just wondered if you wanted to tell us why we

2:28:06need a good staff room for people to to be able to go between their

2:28:11calls. What has changed since the 70s for modern-day EMS so that we're taking

2:28:19care of our people who are delivering the service and not just the calls of

2:28:24people who they're attending to on their call. So I just wondered if you

2:28:27want to tell us a little bit about why the space is needed.

2:28:33Through you, Chair Downer, and thank you for the question. A couple of

2:28:37physical requirements for paramedics that we're not meeting very well right

2:28:41now includes just the ability to to go back to the station and shower. Some

2:28:46of our stations are shared. Well, the stations are part of fire stations,

2:28:50but the sections of the building are rented out on occasion. And so the

2:28:56paramedics are sharing bathrooms with people at a stag and doe, for instance,

2:29:00or or a social event. And so the ability to go into a shower when you're

2:29:05covered with someone else's blood is is not very comfortable when when there

2:29:11are other people coming in and out of bathrooms. And then besides that, the

2:29:15mental health component, so paramedics being able to to decompress to when

2:29:21they've when they've seen something tragic to be able to find some quiet

2:29:25time to just sort of process all of that. Again, if you're not in a facility

2:29:30that has some private space, it can be very difficult and mental health

2:29:35injuries are certainly on the rise for paramedics. People are are our staff

2:29:41are are suffering from from seeing the effects of some tragic incidents and

2:29:49the standard and and the best resources would have some space for them to be

2:29:54able to decompress. So all of that has been sort of incorporated into

2:30:00stations that other paramedic services have developed. We see some models. The

2:30:04example that anti was able to provide is actually a footprint from others from

2:30:09other municipalities that have built stations. And that's I think what our

2:30:14paramedics need and deserve. Thank you. Three chair down just a quick question

2:30:21for DCO calling clock Bush. DCO clock Bush. We just saw the budget for police.

2:30:29We're looking at some capital plans and some operational needs coming forward

2:30:34for for EMS. And I'm just wondering, do we do a similar planning like this for

2:30:40fire? I know we saw it on the budget, but it's not been presented to us quite

2:30:44this way. I just want assurances across the board. To the chair to

2:30:48councillor work, the original OHC, we did do the needs assessment for both fire

2:30:53and paramedics. And I would say that at the time, while there are obviously

2:30:58needs for our fire services as well, we don't have the same issue with the

2:31:03stations in the poor condition that they're in or the locations being as

2:31:07problematic as they are for paramedics. So I think that's why you're seeing more

2:31:11coming forward on the paramedic services side because there are more deficiencies

2:31:15there. As chief doer mentioned, even in terms of the stations that have been

2:31:19provided to our paramedics in terms of the working conditions, we have more

2:31:24issues in the paramedic services side on the fire services side. We have six

2:31:28locations here in Guelph and the main focus moving forward is the

2:31:33identification of needing to replace our fire burn trailer with a burn tower,

2:31:38which is in the capital budget, I believe, in 2028, as well as the longer

2:31:43conversations we're having about where our fire HQ is located, where it could

2:31:48and should be replaced when we need to replace our fire HQ downtown. And are

2:31:53there portions of that, for example, like the fleet services that would be

2:31:58relocated elsewhere. So that is part of our capital forecast and we are

2:32:03planning for that. The work that Antis team is doing in terms of our

2:32:07facility needs does incorporate all of our fire stations. But I would say, I

2:32:12think, and I would look to Antis to see if he feels I've missed anything. But I

2:32:15think predominantly what we're seeing on the paramedic services side was that

2:32:19identification that the stations are not meeting the needs of our staff and are

2:32:22not necessarily in the best locations. And then the last complicating factor is

2:32:28the ownership model. And that is very different for our paramedic services

2:32:32stations. As I mentioned, we have a number of different models that we are

2:32:35pretending. Whereas we own all six of our fire stations here in golf. So that's

2:32:39a little bit more within our control.

2:32:42Thanks very much.

2:32:46Mayor Guthrie has a question. Thank you. And just a quick one through you,

2:32:50chair. And you ended on exactly where I wanted to pick up. So as you look at

2:32:55the ownership model, you know, us build, they build, we rent, they, whatever. And

2:33:01you're doing that work now. I just would I would love it if a conversation and a

2:33:05question could be asked to the county in these locations where these needs are.

2:33:10Are there any economies of scale that they are looking in their own capital

2:33:14needs out there that that can be a partnership or something where where if

2:33:21they need, you know, whatever fill in the blank, also to be built for their

2:33:26government operations out there or something else that they need. Is there a

2:33:29place that there's economies of scale where that could be looked into? And then

2:33:34I would just throw throw it throw it out there almost through you to the county,

2:33:38I guess, but is is there a possibility if it is requirement of a new build can

2:33:43housing be built on top of that as well? That meets the portfolio of affordable

2:33:48housing and other type of units that that's required. And of course, there

2:33:52will of course be separation. There would of course be a delineation between,

2:33:57you know, what the needs are of the paramedics versus the housing. I get it.

2:34:01But that's doable. Like all that stuff is completely doable now. And so I would

2:34:05love to see sort of, you know, these these opportunities be expanded to

2:34:10potential other capital projects that might be needed in the in the county. And

2:34:14I really like that flushed out and report it back to us because I would hate

2:34:19to see us or or them, you know, go into some kind of huge capital build. And then

2:34:25three years later, they're in the need of something else that could have been

2:34:29attached to it, added to it. And then, you know, overall operating costs of the

2:34:33building could be looked to be shared. Different different opportunities to

2:34:37kind of partner up with the needs that we have and they have at the same time. So

2:34:41as long as that conversations are happening and it's not always standalone,

2:34:45standalone, standalone, I would appreciate at least some kind of a follow

2:34:49through on those types of questions.

2:34:51To the chair to America three, if I can just respond, absolutely those are part

2:34:55of many of the discussions that we're having. Sometimes the footprint of the

2:34:59land can be a challenge for us. And then the other thing, and I might pass it

2:35:03over to Auntie to see if he wants to comment that post disaster standard that

2:35:07we have to build to does impact our ability in terms of whether or not we

2:35:11could co locate housing. So I'll defer to Auntie on that.

2:35:16Yeah, through you, Mr. Mayor, the post disaster Ontario building code

2:35:22requirement creates a little bit of complication and

2:35:27adds cost to housing building something on top of a station. But that's not to

2:35:31say that if there's enough land that the land parcel could be divided in such

2:35:37way that you've got separation from a station and and then housing beside

2:35:43that in terms of your question around economies of scale that

2:35:48war plan station, station footprint floor plan that I showed on the screen.

2:35:54That would be the same. Once that detailed design for one station is done,

2:35:59the idea is that that would really just be placed on different sites and

2:36:03oriented for servicing. But the actual station design wouldn't happen to just

2:36:08be replicated at each each location so that you do have that economies of scale.

2:36:15Okay, thank you. Just just one quick comment on that. Then Madam Chair,

2:36:18just as that answer, thank you. So let's say that let's say that hypothetical

2:36:23situation plays out that all the questions are asked, all the economies of scale

2:36:27questions are asked that the land only allows for the replication of that

2:36:32footprint and that design to happen. You can see the 10, 15 year horizon. It's

2:36:40like we got to build this one and then in a year we got to build or two years we

2:36:43got to build this one. I almost would love I love it just to be taken away that

2:36:48is there even economies of scale around fast tracking maybe one or two of them

2:36:56where a bid could go to a contractor to say, you know what work we need this

2:37:02same model built here and here and here instead of having them spread out over

2:37:08seven years, they're done over four years. They can hire all the trades that they

2:37:15can need at one time. They can hire, they can buy all the materials that they need

2:37:19at the same time. If it's sort of a cookie cutter, and I hate to say that, but

2:37:23the same design that's being placed land by land by land is there is there ways

2:37:28of even saving money by maybe accelerating the building of one of these so that we

2:37:34can save on one end and not always have because council are all right like over

2:37:38the years is going to be all this inflationary impacts. Is there any

2:37:43validity to speeding it up, butting the bullet a little bit earlier on the

2:37:48capital, but actually saving some money in the economies of scale of getting two

2:37:51of them done, three of them done at once. I'll leave that with you as a take away.

2:37:55Thanks, manager.

2:37:58Thank you. Are there any other questions? Thank you very much. Oh, Ken.

2:38:05That's why Councillor Jude.

2:38:08Thank you through you, Madam Chair.

2:38:12I just want to pick up on maybe the essence of the mayor's comments. And this

2:38:18is just me speaking off my own thoughts, but I think what we're all maybe looking

2:38:24for is just some justification from kind of like a co-location standpoint.

2:38:30Like if like really that the decision really comes down to whether we're going

2:38:34to do it or not. And all the modeling and financial analysis, like it's well,

2:38:41while a lot of the cases can be compelling to us, like we just I just need to

2:38:46know like five, 10, 20 years down the road.

2:38:52Like what like how is this going to I guess impact the quality of life of

2:39:00people residents in this area and you know, the industrial area.

2:39:06Something that's just a bit less analytical and more that's but that

2:39:12speaks to some of the lived experience.

2:39:16But and ultimately the accountability comes to us to discern

2:39:22by thing if we can have like levels from management and stakeholders that can kind

2:39:27of give us something of a summary of why this is a good place to do this and

2:39:34to action the facility.

2:39:37That would give, I guess, more comfort for a lot of us.

2:39:42And I'm just speaking for myself, but

2:39:45that what we're clear, more clarity we can get from that perspective would be

2:39:51more helpful for someone like me. Thank you.

2:39:57Thank you. I don't know if staff want to answer a lot of that information is in the

2:40:00report. So is there anything else that anybody could add?

2:40:06I guess that was more of a comment.

2:40:09If you can help disseminate some of the report a little bit further down the

2:40:15road as we progress through this process, that would help one like me.

2:40:20OK, so, Chair Downer, if I can also just draw everyone's attention to the annual

2:40:24response time report, it usually comes out in about June.

2:40:27And I think that's also the other great place to go to seek that data because the

2:40:32response time report, which we're required to file with the Ministry of Health,

2:40:35really helps to show that service level that we're providing where we're meeting

2:40:39our response times and where we still have those challenges.

2:40:42And so that KPI and on annual monitoring is another great place to see some of that data.

2:40:49Thank you. Are there any other questions from Council?

2:40:55OK, seeing none, let's just check with the clerk.

2:40:57Do we need a motion to receive this information?

2:40:59No, we don't. So I'm going to hand the chair back to the mayor.

2:41:02OK, thanks a lot, Chair Downer, for bringing that forward.

2:41:06It is good for everyone to have the conversation about it, but also for the

2:41:10public to be aware, you know, hoping our media partners might help amplify that

2:41:15messaging a bit. So thank you.

2:41:18With that, there's nothing else.

2:41:19I just want to look at the executive team or any managers.

2:41:23No follow up announcements.

2:41:25No. OK, I have nothing.

2:41:27No announcements. So I'm looking for a German, please.

2:41:30I bet you Councillor Billings would like to help with the German.

2:41:32Yeah. And then Councillor Agilkaitin for seconding a German.

2:41:36Is there anyone against a German?

2:41:39Nobody that's unanimous as well.

2:41:41We are considered done.

2:41:42Have a great rest of the evening.

2:41:44Thank you.